are overflow boxs and wet dry filters good

[heckfire]

i found this in the garbage rhe other day ,, i currently use live rock for my main filtration but im having a hard time with ammonia and nitrates/nitrites. Is this worth the effort?? also how does a overflow box handle power outages??

[Michael]

can you give us some information on your set up?

size of tank
age of system
type of live stock
what you have now for biological filtration
sump or no sump
cuc types
water source and quality

[heckfire]

60 gallon,, live rock,, snails,,lots of pistol shrimp,, 3 small fish,, been up and running about 6 months,, i have several powerheads and 2 hob filters with only some bioballs in one

[dmarkham]

I think it would be better then what you have. HOB filters.

[Michael]

based on your stock, id suggest you only need flow, live rock and a skimmer, so i wouldnt bother with the wet/dry in your case, the hob filter with the bio-balls may i say may, be a reason why you have nitrate trouble, as for ammonia, thats a different and more serious problem, how much rock have you got?

[Palting]

"Having a hard time with ammonia........"

That can be a major issue. You need more biofiltration.

You found this is the garbage? Free sump? I'd use it. Load up that first section with large pieces of live rock, raise that baffle so that the rocks are all under water, skimmer in the second section, then place an external return pump. Of course, you'll have to get an overflow box or drill your display tank. That should be a giant step in controlling your ammonia issues.

[heckfire]

id say about 40 pounds,,, at some point,, if the system stabilizes id like to add some zoas and other soft corals

[Michael]

well you have enough rock for your tank with the livestock you have, perhaps the biological colonies are not matured enough yet.

[heckfire]

Originally Posted by Palting

"Having a hard time with ammonia........"

That can be a major issue. You need more biofiltration.

You found this is the garbage? Free sump? I'd use it. Load up that first section with large pieces of live rock, raise that baffle so that the rocks are all under water, skimmer in the second section, then place an external return pump. Of course, you'll have to get an overflow box or drill your display tank. That should be a giant step in controlling your ammonia issues.

you would be amazed what ive found ,seems alot of people tire of the aquarium hobby quick,, id like to use it but im confused how the hob overflow box even works,, the tank(which i also found in the garbage, is not predrilled) and im also concerned about power outtages,, how will the siphon start when the power comes on

[chimmike]

honestly, without seeing the size of the rock, i don't know if 40lbs is enough. It may be 40lbs, but the rocks could be dense and small.

[Palting]

My tank is pre-drilled, so I'm not an HOB overflow expert. BUT, there are several on this board who are. My understanding is that there are overflow boxes with aqualifters that automatically restart the process in case of a power outage, and some designs that restart as well without an aqualifter. I suggest starting a separate thread specifically asking about HOB overflows, and you'll get a lot of good opinions.

BTW, your problems may have to do with how mature or immature your biofiltration is. How old is your tank?

[dmarkham]

Originally Posted by heckfire

you would be amazed what ive found ,seems alot of people tire of the aquarium hobby quick,, id like to use it but im confused how the hob overflow box even works,, the tank(which i also found in the garbage, is not predrilled) and im also concerned about power outtages,, how will the siphon start when the power comes on

I have a HOB over flow and they make aqualifter pumps that will prevent the the display overflowing during a power outage.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by chimmike

honestly, without seeing the size of the rock, i don't know if 40lbs is enough. It may be 40lbs, but the rocks could be dense and small.

Hi-Mike,

it should be enough for 3 small fish though wouldn;t it?

kind regards



mike

[heckfire]

heres my tank im guessing about 40 lbs,,, been going about 5/6 months,,i know thats early

[chimmike]

Originally Posted by Michael

Hi-Mike,

it should be enough for 3 small fish though wouldn;t it?

kind regards



mike

I don't know. That looks like fairly dense rock. I could be wrong, but it doesn't look as porous as say fiji or other. Sure, may be 3 small fish, but he could be overfeeding, and the filtration setup he has may just be harboring the ammonia.

Regardless, he needs to curb it somehow!

[RocketSurgeon]

Your set-up looks great. Perhaps you could use a little different rock, if you're planning on using it as filtration.
Below are a few pics (cell phone quality) of some of my rock:







If the glass is not tempered, it may not be much to drill it now, before it is completely set up.

A sump and skimmer would definitely be a huge plus.

[RocketSurgeon]

If these tanks are from unknown sources, I'd be careful of threat of copper.
Just something to think about.

[RocketSurgeon]

I used a similar sump till I could get something better.

[heckfire]

Originally Posted by Michael

based on your stock, id suggest you only need flow, live rock and a skimmer, so i wouldnt bother with the wet/dry in your case, the hob filter with the bio-balls may i say may, be a reason why you have nitrate trouble, as for ammonia, thats a different and more serious problem, how much rock have you got?

what is the diff between the bacteria on live rock as opposed to bioballs?

[isildursbane]

It's not so much the difference in the type of bacteria, it's how they are placed. BioBalls normally run in a Wet-Dry filter that exposes them to lots of air/oxygen. That causes a much faster conversion of ammonia >> nitrIte >> nitrAte. That is why you use a skimmer because it actually removes the proteins before they can be converted. Live rock can actually act like a BioBall setup if used in wet-dry type filter. That is why you always want your Live Rock fully submerged.

From the newbie thread: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-04/newbie/index.php

Main thread here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1696795

[Palting]

It's true it's about different bacteria. But, it's more than just where the bioballs vs live rock are placed. If it's just a question of placement, then you can just submerge the bioballs completely in water and you would have the same thing as live rock. But that is not so.

It's more the depth of the porous rock, vs no depth in the bioballs. All the surface of the bioballs are exposed to oxygenated water, therefore all the processing is by aerobic bacteria. In live rock, the water seeps deep into the porous rock, but by then all the oxygen has been consumed by the more superficial aerobic bacteria, and now the water deep in the rock is anoxic. Therefore, anaerobic bacteria populate the deep zones of the rock, and these are the bactteria that process the nitrate to nitrogen gas. The bioball bacteria, being all aerobic, cannot do this.

One more thing. Live rock rubble, by not having deep zones as in true live rock, are not any better than bioballs since they have no anoxic zone for anaerobic bacteria. Same principle applies to shallow sand bed with no anoxic zone therefore no nitrate to nitrogen gas processing, vs a deep sand bed that has an anoxic zone therefore has nitrate to nitrogen gas processing.

[heckfire]

Originally Posted by Palting

It's true it's about different bacteria. But, it's more than just where the bioballs vs live rock are placed. If it's just a question of placement, then you can just submerge the bioballs completely in water and you would have the same thing as live rock. But that is not so.

It's more the depth of the porous rock, vs no depth in the bioballs. All the surface of the bioballs are exposed to oxygenated water, therefore all the processing is by aerobic bacteria. In live rock, the water seeps deep into the porous rock, but by then all the oxygen has been consumed by the more superficial aerobic bacteria, and now the water deep in the rock is anoxic. Therefore, anaerobic bacteria populate the deep zones of the rock, and these are the bactteria that process the nitrate to nitrogen gas. The bioball bacteria, being all aerobic, cannot do this.

One more thing. Live rock rubble, by not having deep zones as in true live rock, are not any better than bioballs since they have no anoxic zone for anaerobic bacteria. Same principle applies to shallow sand bed with no anoxic zone therefore no nitrate to nitrogen gas processing, vs a deep sand bed that has an anoxic zone therefore has nitrate to nitrogen gas processing.

thx,, im starting to understand

[Sk8r]

That's a nice 300.00 sump, potentially. Just remove all the grids and put some live rock, sand and cheato in the bottom, with your pump arranged either interior or exterior to the chamber (external pump uses a drilled bulkhead connector) and put a nice skimmer into operation ---I set mine atop the sump and let it drain down into it (they're notorious for spitting water)--and no bioballs, just sand, cheato and live rock.

[Sk8r]

A sump is fed by a hose coming down from the overflow. A doublewalled overflow has an inner wall, shorter than the outer one, and the drain-down will be no further than that inner wall. A siphon overflow box will quit when the upper water falls enough to suck air into the siphon: siphon breaks (has to be restarted by user) and you have no more drain-down. Also you 'set' the water level in your sump by stages, so that if the power goes out, your sump can contain ALL the water that will be drained down from the top before the break (either doublewall or siphon) causes the drain to stop. It is useful to have a friend to scream when the sump is about to overflow so you can cut the pump back on and fix the water level. This is an entertaining job, but experience eventually makes it easier to do.