Flood Prevention in non-drilled tank

RownSurf81 · 11/28/2010, 05:33 PM

I'm not new to the hobby, but new to my current situation. I've moved into an apartment and live on the 4th floor. They didn't even want to let me have my 75g reef tank, but I convinced them and paid for a bit more renters insurance. I'm using a hang on back overflow and haven't had too many issues in the past, but it has flooded over before. As I've tried to get the tank set up again I can't seem to get the flow regulated. So my question it two part:

1) Can anyone recommend the most failsafe hang-on-back overflow they've had experience with? I don't mind purchasing another if it will help.

2) Can anyone recommend any system I can purchase or build easily to turn off the pump if the tank level gets too high? I thought one of the auto top-off or water level controller systems might work for this.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Justin

saltymight · 11/28/2010, 05:57 PM

I know my eshopps collects bubbles in the U tube every so often. I keep a tube in there no on just to get them out. My return hose has a hole in it near the DT its self so if power goes out it collects up air and siphons back to to Sump only the water in the hose. than I tested for a power out and my sump only takes in about a gallon of water until the HOB overflow stops. as for shutting of the water pump idea that sounds great if you can think of anything that would work let me know i will probably invest in something like that. The only think i could think of is putting the auto top off upside down so its always on than if it gets to full it will shut off.

RownSurf81 · 12/04/2010, 01:18 AM

Thanks for the response! Yeah I trust my tank not to flood when the power goes off. What I don't trust is that it will start circulating properly again when the power returns, thus why I'm looking for a way to stop the pump if the tank gets close to overflow. I'll definitely let you know if I find anymore info.

SuperNemo · 12/04/2010, 02:10 AM

i dont have a drilled tank either. i use a pvc overflow, not one of those HOB so no experience with that.

what i did to ensure the tank will not overflow is run the water line lower than normal. the way i did it is figure out how much the return hold in the sump and subtract that from the top of the tank. if the return hold 7 gallons, and i have a 55, i run the tank 8 gallons lower that filler up.

this way, the worst you get is the pump pushing air into your tank when it runs out of water.

it's not the best looking, but if you have a custom canopy, just make is lower and it will hide the lower water line.

Puffdragon · 12/04/2010, 06:24 AM

Most overflows have an air line that will help start the water flowing thru the overflow. I attached a Luft pump to it to keep air from stopping the siphoning to the sump. When power comes back it helped re start the siphoning. It was not fool prove but helped. I would look into finding a drilled tank. They are the only way I run reefs now. Helps me stay out of the doghouse.

redfishblewfish · 12/04/2010, 06:45 AM

I know you didn’t ask for this, but I’m going to tell you anyway. Drop the water level a few inches and drill the back glass and put in a Glass-Holes overflow. The kit comes with everything, including the drill bit. I had two big floods when I had an external overflow and didn’t want another. I have to admit that putting on the glass-holes overflow was one of the best things I’ve done for my tank. You won’t be sorry.

RownSurf81 · 12/04/2010, 12:35 PM

SuperNemo, what do you mean by a PVC overflow? Don't believe I'm familiar with that

Puff, I had thought about trying some sort of pump to keep the siphon going. I assume that is a type of pump that stays on permanently?

Redfish, cutting the glass was fairly easy with that kit? Never considered that.

matt144 · 12/04/2010, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redfishblewfish

i know you didn’t ask for this, but i’m going to tell you anyway. Drop the water level a few inches and drill the back glass and put in a glass-holes overflow. The kit comes with everything, including the drill bit. I had two big floods when i had an external overflow and didn’t want another. I have to admit that putting on the glass-holes overflow was one of the best things i’ve done for my tank. You won’t be sorry.

+1

syrinx · 12/04/2010, 12:57 PM

Eshopps or similar u tube will have no problems if- you keep tube clean and you have proper size pump to keep air from collecting in tube. U tubes should purge all air if pump size is sufficient. Many CPR type overflows- or overflows requiring a air-lifter pump will eventually fail. If you use a air lifter assisted cpr type- at least replace the air-lifter pump yearly.

Baltimore Bryan · 12/04/2010, 01:07 PM

The return pump must pump out (with head pressure calculated) less water than the HOB overflow can siphon out. Otherwise, the pump will just put water into the tank too fast. My u-tube of my Eshopps overflow used to fill with bubbles quickly, which reduced the amount of water it was able to siphon out. I fixed this by opening up my return pump more so that the overflow runs at full strength all the time and the bubbles do not have a chance to settle at the top. If you are concerned with water levels, you could use float switches. For example, you can have a float switch in the display and have it set with the controller to cut off the pump if it is activated (the return pump will turn off if the water in the DT gets too high) to prevent a flood.
Bryan

staplesofficewr · 12/04/2010, 01:12 PM

You could go with an electronic solution:
If the display gets too full, shut off the pump with an industrial estop cicuit.

A float switch mounted at the max water level is normally closed to keep a relay closed (lets call this relay A). Relay A will stay energized until the flow switch opens. As an added safety, once the float switch opens, relay A will not re-energize until you push a small button to reset the circuit.

I can draw you a simple schematic if you would like.

You could do the same for the sump....except backwards. If the sump gets too full, turn on an auxilary pump to pump the water from the sump to a spare bucket of two...

username in use · 12/04/2010, 02:39 PM

Make your return section small enough that the tank can not overflow before it sucks air. Thats the only failsafe way to do it with a hang on back.

Also, no auto top off, or it removes your failsafe.

dublo8 · 12/04/2010, 03:20 PM

Either go with the glass holes scenario or if you dont want to drill use the eshopps overflow. I have never had a problem with it at all and most people would agree. Don't get the cpr style overflow as it will fail eventually. Keep your return section in your sump small so it doesn't overflow your DT. Either drill a hole in your return line just below surface level or keep the return output up higher to make sure if it does back siphon into your sump that the sump doesn't overflow. You will be fine, nothing to worry about...except the weight of your tank on the 4th floor.

RownSurf81 · 12/04/2010, 05:56 PM

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

I looked into the option of cutting a hole to create a normal overflow and I think that'd beyond what I'm willing to do right now. the tank is in place and set up. I'd hate trying to drain it all again and reset it.

So with that, I'm back to the original question. I'm already using what you all call an eshopps HoB, unless that particular brand is what I should choose, rather than others of the same style. One of the problems I've found in reseting the tank this time is that the utube does NOT keep pushing water at the same rate, so air does collect slowly. I tried putting in a brand new return pump and eventually the prefilter box level starts to rise and the tank gets near to overflowing. Maybe I have too strong a return pump now? I had the tank set for years without a problem of this type, so it's wearing me down trying to sort it out.

BaltimoreBryan, it sounds like you are talking about manipulating the amount of water coming from the return pump. How could I accomplish this?

You and Stapleofficer both also mention float switches. This was more along the lines of my very first post. I've had them fail before though in different setups. Are there any that more failsafe than others you could recommend?

Dublo- I can handle bio, chem and earth sciences, but physics was my weak point! What worries should I have about the tank being on the 4th floor? Its been up for a bit now and I haven't noticed any structural problems, but would certainly like to know about any I should watch for!

SuperNemo · 12/05/2010, 12:18 AM

rown,

this is the thread at RC
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...t=pvc+overflow

i have a similar version except use a 4" pvc with a cap for the overflow portion in replacement of the "U" portion which is inside the tank.

but basically, as someone else also mentioned; only way to ensure no flooding is to leave enough space in the display so it can accept all the water in the return section without overflowing.

heckfire · 12/05/2010, 08:51 AM

i was givin a nice hob overflow and fuge setup,, it still is sitting in my garage,, i just cannot get over the flood threat

tsharp90 · 12/05/2010, 12:37 PM

I am going to try this one out when I set my tank up. http://www.3reef.com/forums/i-made/n...low-29396.html

lightbright · 12/05/2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RownSurf81

Dublo- I can handle bio, chem and earth sciences, but physics was my weak point! What worries should I have about the tank being on the 4th floor? Its been up for a bit now and I haven't noticed any structural problems, but would certainly like to know about any I should watch for!

Tank weight weight really shouldn't be an issue, water weighs agout 8.25 lbs/gal, ballpark it to 9. 875lbs + 100lbs of rock= lets say 1000lbs, about the weight of 5 men. If your telling me that 5 men can't stand close to each other in your spot, than you'd better not throw any parties. 10 people should be able to stand there with absolutely no problem, even in the CENTER of the room And then factor in that your tank is up against the wall. If your really gonna worry, just make sure that the tank straddles the joists and doesn't run lengthwise with them. You should be safe, even in an old house. My house is only 5yrs old, and I don't even worry with a 220 gal, on the second floor, over a ton and 1/4 with the rock and a 30gal sump.

cm11599ps · 12/05/2010, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightbright

Tank weight weight really shouldn't be an issue, water weighs agout 8.25 lbs/gal, ballpark it to 9. 875lbs + 100lbs of rock= lets say 1000lbs, about the weight of 5 men. If your telling me that 5 men can't stand close to each other in your spot, than you'd better not throw any parties. 10 people should be able to stand there with absolutely no problem, even in the CENTER of the room And then factor in that your tank is up against the wall. If your really gonna worry, just make sure that the tank straddles the joists and doesn't run lengthwise with them. You should be safe, even in an old house. My house is only 5yrs old, and I don't even worry with a 220 gal, on the second floor, over a ton and 1/4 with the rock and a 30gal sump.

I don't agree with this. An older house is probably STRONGER then a newer house. Years ago a 2x4 was ACTUALLY 2x4. Today a 2x4 is 1 1/2" X 3 1/2"

It's also not as easy saying, "if 5 grown men can stand in one spot then my tank should be fine there." That's not good reasoning. It's not so much a matter of having 5 men stand in one place for a few seconds or so. It's a matter of having those same 5 men stand in one spot for YEARS at a time. Don't forget to factor in YOUR weight when standing near the tank as well as any visitors gathering around to look at your tank. Just having 5 guys stand in front of a tank adds another 1,000 lbs!

How about this for an example. Some people choose to buy white PVC fencing for their yard. They want the LOOK of it but they end of purchasing a cheaper brand. When it's installed it looks beautiful and the bottom span is pretty much a straight, horizontal line between fence posts. Now look at that fence 3 years later and you will see the middle of the fence starting to sag down a bit due to the weight of the fence over the years SLOWLY pushing down.

It's not only the WEIGHT of your tank, it's the weight of your tank over TIME that is the issue.

lightbright · 12/05/2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cm11599ps

I don't agree with this. An older house is probably STRONGER then a newer house. Years ago a 2x4 was ACTUALLY 2x4. Today a 2x4 is 1 1/2" X 3 1/2"

It's also not as easy saying, "if 5 grown men can stand in one spot then my tank should be fine there." That's not good reasoning. It's not so much a matter of having 5 men stand in one place for a few seconds or so. It's a matter of having those same 5 men stand in one spot for YEARS at a time. Don't forget to factor in YOUR weight when standing near the tank as well as any visitors gathering around to look at your tank. Just having 5 guys stand in front of a tank adds another 1,000 lbs!

How about this for an example. Some people choose to buy white PVC fencing for their yard. They want the LOOK of it but they end of purchasing a cheaper brand. When it's installed it looks beautiful and the bottom span is pretty much a straight, horizontal line between fence posts. Now look at that fence 3 years later and you will see the middle of the fence starting to sag down a bit due to the weight of the fence over the years SLOWLY pushing down.

It's not only the WEIGHT of your tank, it's the weight of your tank over TIME that is the issue.

I understand what your saying, but when placed across the joists, which are 12" spaced, ur talikin bout at least 5 under it, as well as floor material and up against a wall. Placing it in the center of the living room and dining room (it's one large room) wouldn't be an issue for me anyway cause my house came in 4 sections. Under the center where they join, the beams are huge. And I agree with you on the older house thing when a 2 x 4 was a TRUE 2 x 4 .

capecoral · 12/05/2010, 06:21 PM

Maybe a horizontal 2 X 16 or 2 X 12, or steel tubes, can be placed left to right over the joists to spread out the load over more joists.

RownSurf81 · 12/07/2010, 06:32 PM

Thanks again to everyone who has replied. I'm just going to pray that the weight of the tank isn't too much for my building. It's been set up for a while now, so hopefully no ill effects and it stays that way.

Regarding my original question, I think I will try a new overflow box as mine is getting a bit old. I'll try the suggested eshopps box and I also plan to put a simple float switch in the display tank, reversed and attached to the main pump, so that if water rises above a certain level it will turn off the return pump. I know this can still fail, but it sees the best I can come up with for now short of options I won't consider such as drilling the tank myself.

So, if anyone has experience or recommendations on particular float switches, please let me know. The only one I see on marinedepot that would work is the Ultralife Switch, which gets fair reviews. I suppose something like a Tunze Osmolator may also work, but it seems as if it'd be complicated to sort out, but still open to suggestions on that sort of setup.

Thanks,

Justin

staplesofficewr · 12/07/2010, 06:39 PM

I have always used the ones from Mcmaster carr.

Part # 50195K93. I have never had any problems with them.

11/28/2010, 05:33 PM	#1
RownSurf81 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Norfolk, Va Posts: 111	Flood Prevention in non-drilled tank I'm not new to the hobby, but new to my current situation. I've moved into an apartment and live on the 4th floor. They didn't even want to let me have my 75g reef tank, but I convinced them and paid for a bit more renters insurance. I'm using a hang on back overflow and haven't had too many issues in the past, but it has flooded over before. As I've tried to get the tank set up again I can't seem to get the flow regulated. So my question it two part: 1) Can anyone recommend the most failsafe hang-on-back overflow they've had experience with? I don't mind purchasing another if it will help. 2) Can anyone recommend any system I can purchase or build easily to turn off the pump if the tank level gets too high? I thought one of the auto top-off or water level controller systems might work for this. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Justin

12/04/2010, 06:24 AM	#5
Puffdragon Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 297	Most overflows have an air line that will help start the water flowing thru the overflow. I attached a Luft pump to it to keep air from stopping the siphoning to the sump. When power comes back it helped re start the siphoning. It was not fool prove but helped. I would look into finding a drilled tank. They are the only way I run reefs now. Helps me stay out of the doghouse. __________________ The definition of an expert "Someone who has done something for so long that they can not see a new way to do things." Current Tank Info: 350 gallon mixed reef system

12/04/2010, 02:39 PM	#12
username in use Sciencing Daily Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6,560	Make your return section small enough that the tank can not overflow before it sucks air. Thats the only failsafe way to do it with a hang on back. Also, no auto top off, or it removes your failsafe. __________________ Joshua "With fronds like these, who needs anemones?" - Albert Einstein Current Tank Info: multiple nano's sprinkled around the house

12/04/2010, 03:20 PM	#13
dublo8 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Morgan Hill, Ca Posts: 3,225	Either go with the glass holes scenario or if you dont want to drill use the eshopps overflow. I have never had a problem with it at all and most people would agree. Don't get the cpr style overflow as it will fail eventually. Keep your return section in your sump small so it doesn't overflow your DT. Either drill a hole in your return line just below surface level or keep the return output up higher to make sure if it does back siphon into your sump that the sump doesn't overflow. You will be fine, nothing to worry about...except the weight of your tank on the 4th floor. __________________ 10g IM fusion. Zoa and SPS dominant, Apex monitored, Ai Prime, MP10, sicce return.

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11/28/2010, 05:57 PM	#2
saltymight Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Clay, Ny Posts: 860	I know my eshopps collects bubbles in the U tube every so often. I keep a tube in there no on just to get them out. My return hose has a hole in it near the DT its self so if power goes out it collects up air and siphons back to to Sump only the water in the hose. than I tested for a power out and my sump only takes in about a gallon of water until the HOB overflow stops. as for shutting of the water pump idea that sounds great if you can think of anything that would work let me know i will probably invest in something like that. The only think i could think of is putting the auto top off upside down so its always on than if it gets to full it will shut off.

12/04/2010, 01:18 AM	#3
RownSurf81 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Norfolk, Va Posts: 111	Thanks for the response! Yeah I trust my tank not to flood when the power goes off. What I don't trust is that it will start circulating properly again when the power returns, thus why I'm looking for a way to stop the pump if the tank gets close to overflow. I'll definitely let you know if I find anymore info.

12/04/2010, 02:10 AM	#4
SuperNemo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 524	i dont have a drilled tank either. i use a pvc overflow, not one of those HOB so no experience with that. what i did to ensure the tank will not overflow is run the water line lower than normal. the way i did it is figure out how much the return hold in the sump and subtract that from the top of the tank. if the return hold 7 gallons, and i have a 55, i run the tank 8 gallons lower that filler up. this way, the worst you get is the pump pushing air into your tank when it runs out of water. it's not the best looking, but if you have a custom canopy, just make is lower and it will hide the lower water line.

12/04/2010, 06:45 AM	#6
redfishblewfish Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 716	I know you didn’t ask for this, but I’m going to tell you anyway. Drop the water level a few inches and drill the back glass and put in a Glass-Holes overflow. The kit comes with everything, including the drill bit. I had two big floods when I had an external overflow and didn’t want another. I have to admit that putting on the glass-holes overflow was one of the best things I’ve done for my tank. You won’t be sorry.

12/04/2010, 12:35 PM	#7
RownSurf81 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Norfolk, Va Posts: 111	SuperNemo, what do you mean by a PVC overflow? Don't believe I'm familiar with that Puff, I had thought about trying some sort of pump to keep the siphon going. I assume that is a type of pump that stays on permanently? Redfish, cutting the glass was fairly easy with that kit? Never considered that.

12/04/2010, 12:57 PM	#9
syrinx Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: champaign Posts: 3,160	Eshopps or similar u tube will have no problems if- you keep tube clean and you have proper size pump to keep air from collecting in tube. U tubes should purge all air if pump size is sufficient. Many CPR type overflows- or overflows requiring a air-lifter pump will eventually fail. If you use a air lifter assisted cpr type- at least replace the air-lifter pump yearly.

12/04/2010, 01:07 PM	#10
Baltimore Bryan Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: US Posts: 237	The return pump must pump out (with head pressure calculated) less water than the HOB overflow can siphon out. Otherwise, the pump will just put water into the tank too fast. My u-tube of my Eshopps overflow used to fill with bubbles quickly, which reduced the amount of water it was able to siphon out. I fixed this by opening up my return pump more so that the overflow runs at full strength all the time and the bubbles do not have a chance to settle at the top. If you are concerned with water levels, you could use float switches. For example, you can have a float switch in the display and have it set with the controller to cut off the pump if it is activated (the return pump will turn off if the water in the DT gets too high) to prevent a flood. Bryan

12/04/2010, 01:12 PM	#11
staplesofficewr Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 190	You could go with an electronic solution: If the display gets too full, shut off the pump with an industrial estop cicuit. A float switch mounted at the max water level is normally closed to keep a relay closed (lets call this relay A). Relay A will stay energized until the flow switch opens. As an added safety, once the float switch opens, relay A will not re-energize until you push a small button to reset the circuit. I can draw you a simple schematic if you would like. You could do the same for the sump....except backwards. If the sump gets too full, turn on an auxilary pump to pump the water from the sump to a spare bucket of two...

12/04/2010, 05:56 PM	#14
RownSurf81 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Norfolk, Va Posts: 111	Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I looked into the option of cutting a hole to create a normal overflow and I think that'd beyond what I'm willing to do right now. the tank is in place and set up. I'd hate trying to drain it all again and reset it. So with that, I'm back to the original question. I'm already using what you all call an eshopps HoB, unless that particular brand is what I should choose, rather than others of the same style. One of the problems I've found in reseting the tank this time is that the utube does NOT keep pushing water at the same rate, so air does collect slowly. I tried putting in a brand new return pump and eventually the prefilter box level starts to rise and the tank gets near to overflowing. Maybe I have too strong a return pump now? I had the tank set for years without a problem of this type, so it's wearing me down trying to sort it out. BaltimoreBryan, it sounds like you are talking about manipulating the amount of water coming from the return pump. How could I accomplish this? You and Stapleofficer both also mention float switches. This was more along the lines of my very first post. I've had them fail before though in different setups. Are there any that more failsafe than others you could recommend? Dublo- I can handle bio, chem and earth sciences, but physics was my weak point! What worries should I have about the tank being on the 4th floor? Its been up for a bit now and I haven't noticed any structural problems, but would certainly like to know about any I should watch for!

12/05/2010, 12:18 AM	#15
SuperNemo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 524	rown, this is the thread at RC http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...t=pvc+overflow i have a similar version except use a 4" pvc with a cap for the overflow portion in replacement of the "U" portion which is inside the tank. but basically, as someone else also mentioned; only way to ensure no flooding is to leave enough space in the display so it can accept all the water in the return section without overflowing.

12/05/2010, 08:51 AM	#16
heckfire Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 331	i was givin a nice hob overflow and fuge setup,, it still is sitting in my garage,, i just cannot get over the flood threat

12/05/2010, 12:37 PM	#17
tsharp90 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 33	I am going to try this one out when I set my tank up. http://www.3reef.com/forums/i-made/n...low-29396.html

12/05/2010, 06:21 PM	#21
capecoral Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: cape coral, fl Posts: 396	Maybe a horizontal 2 X 16 or 2 X 12, or steel tubes, can be placed left to right over the joists to spread out the load over more joists.

12/07/2010, 06:32 PM	#22
RownSurf81 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Norfolk, Va Posts: 111	Thanks again to everyone who has replied. I'm just going to pray that the weight of the tank isn't too much for my building. It's been set up for a while now, so hopefully no ill effects and it stays that way. Regarding my original question, I think I will try a new overflow box as mine is getting a bit old. I'll try the suggested eshopps box and I also plan to put a simple float switch in the display tank, reversed and attached to the main pump, so that if water rises above a certain level it will turn off the return pump. I know this can still fail, but it sees the best I can come up with for now short of options I won't consider such as drilling the tank myself. So, if anyone has experience or recommendations on particular float switches, please let me know. The only one I see on marinedepot that would work is the Ultralife Switch, which gets fair reviews. I suppose something like a Tunze Osmolator may also work, but it seems as if it'd be complicated to sort out, but still open to suggestions on that sort of setup. Thanks, Justin

12/07/2010, 06:39 PM	#23
staplesofficewr Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 190	I have always used the ones from Mcmaster carr. Part # 50195K93. I have never had any problems with them.