Basement Sump (Please help about to give up)

[samwrang]

As per the thread title I'm about to pull out my main floor 250G.

For the last 6 months I've been battling head pressure problems to pump from my basement sump setup to my main floor tank. Here is the setup;

- Sump in basement
- Return pump below sump (under the stand)
- head is initially 8 feet, then about 20 feet horizontal, then another 10 feet
- I'm using spa flex on the entire return so no 90's
- 1.5" intake on the intake side of the return pump to make sure it's good and flooded

Here is the kicker. Before I moved the fish room to another part of the basement it worked great with a crappy little GenX 40. I moved it 20 feet to another part of the basement and I can only get a trickle of water with two Hammerhead's in series running full out at 1.5"

So I figure, must need a pressure pump. So I go buy a GenX 150 and now I'm getting no flow at all.

So I figure, must be plugged. So I go buy $150 worth of fish sticks and attach a pipe cleaner and it doesn't hit any obstructions.

So now I figure...%#$ it, I'm tearing it down

Can an air lock in a dip in the hose hold back two hammerheads running in series? At the most it would be maybe an inch or two drop.

[noobtothereef]

is it a pcx-150? If so the pump must be mad, thats a pretty pricey pump, the head for that pump is like 40 feet so it should be shooting water up to your tank like crazy, it must be bad. Im guessing there has to be a restriction of some sort, this sounds like a wierd problem, especially trying 2 hammerheads in series.....

and as long as theres a supply of water to the pump it will pump the water.... hmmm

[samwrang]

Exactly. Now tear everything apart (twice) then stare at the pipes for hours on end and you'll be 10% of my current frustration level. I have $1500 worth of pumps sitting on the floor and my $12 garden hose could easily pump the water up there...

[oscar.millan]

Give up, you'll wallet will thank you. However, if you are stubborn like most of us, there has to be a reason for this. Just not an obvious reason.

I would test and start from the ground up. Perhaps get someone else to go step by step in the flow process. There has to be a reason.

Other things that may help, another pump to test with.

[noobtothereef]

could it be that the 1.5" line is holding alot more water volume creating added weight for the pump to push? i bet if you adapted a garden hose to the gen x pump it would push the water up there like crazy, i have a mag 24 that would barely push water up 10' with 1" id hose, switched to 3/4" and works fine now, was yout return line always 1.5" or did you change it from something smaller when you moved the fish room?

[samwrang]

Only the intake between the sump and the return pump is 1.5". The output is 1" spaflex the entire way. It's the exact same setup as it was before.

[izmullives]

its got to be a problem with the pump or a blockage in the line I have a small eihem pump that I run from my basement to the first floor about 30ft with 1" spa flex and have no problem

[ExFOWLR]

I would suggest that you need to go larger on your spaflex/ return. Your head press on any pump is rated for straight up above the pump/ no restrictions. The genx is good for 40 ft with perfect engineering conditions. You are saying that it is running up 8ft, over 20ft, up 10ft. That is 40ft of restriction not including the 18 ft of head it must overcome between the pump and your display tank. just because you use spaflex with no sharp turns doesn't mean there is no head loss. You are probably loosing 20+ft of head just in the spaflex. I would suggest if it has to run that far and up you upsize to 1 1/2 or 2" and reduce it down if necessary as close to the display tank as possible.
Think of it this way, the supply lines to your kitchen faucet are 3/8" but your water line to the shut off under your sink are 1/2 or 3/4". If you ran a 3/8" line from your water meter with 60psi to your faucet it would barely flow at all. this is what is happening to your flow. Don't beleive me then go get 100' of 1" spaflex and connect it to any one of those pumps and pump it to a bucket at pump level- you will be shocked how little comes out.
hope this helps, John

[carlosR]

Might I offer a hard-earned suggestion? I'm frequently called on to troubleshoot at the clinic, air conditioning, heaters, lights, machines. I am not a tech person nor particularly handy with a wrench but someone's got to do it. What I've found is this, don't try to anticipate or figure out what is wrong. Look over your setup with a "wide eye" doing mental checks. A guy who worked for us told me the secret is it's nearly always something little not a total replacement. There's probably some small thing somewhere that needs tweaking. Good luck and you'll find it.

[mc-cro]

I am not familiar with running pumps in "series". So I am not sure I understand how that is plumbed. Maybe some pics could help

8' up, 20' over, and then another 10' is a lot of head. How many outlets do you have on the return? (if you have more than one, the total flow can really look like a trickle because the flow is divided by 2)

I would have to guess its just too much head pressure. My first few basement setups I used a Panworld 250 pressure rated pump, running 1.25 return lines. I had a very similar set up to yours, almost the exact same amount of head, and I had to T off the pump because it was entirely too much flow.

I recently moved my sump and equipment and bought a smaller pump. I have about 10' straight up, over 10', then another 6' vertical, then 2 outlets. Its being pushed with a panworld 50px, and its just barely adequate.

[samwrang]

Update,

I throttled back the return (on the output side of the pump) to about 50% and it's working at around what I would expect this pump to be doing while restricted 50%.

It's definitely not the pump, this is a brand new pump and I've used two other brand new Hammerheads (working in series) with the same results.

My wide-eye analysis is it must be some kind of blockage. The only way to fix it is to cut the line upstairs (so I can push the debris downwards) but the pump working at 50% doesn't seem to support this theory?

[mc-cro]

is it possible the pump is not getting enough water? Like you said, this is not making sense.

pictures may help to see if someone can spot something based on your plumbing

[ExFOWLR]

Spaflex is sort of corragated inside, it is excessivly restrictive. You cannot use regular head loss calculations for regular 1" pvc. I would bet money there is nothing in your pipe but I guess it could be possible. Has this system worked properly at all since you relocated the sump?
If you cut it I would cut the line before it goes upstairs and check the flow into a 5 gal bucket or something to eliminate an obstruction in the longest part of your run.
I still think your flow problem is from undersized return hose. 1" is on the small side, What flow are you trying to accomplish?. The higher the flow the more restictive any size pipe becomes- its just worse the smaller your pipe is.
I would replace your 8' up and 20' lateral run with 1 1/2 pvc and keep the rest in place and you would see a huge difference.
while in the course of my work I helped a buddy repair a commercial chiller on a 1500g lobster tank at a seafood restaurant. He had replaced a hammerhead pump that had about 20' run in 1" pvc with 1 1/2 pvc. It went from mediocre flow to having to install a ball valve to throttle the pump back because the 2" overflows couldn't keep up. This was only a 20' run with a total rise of about 6'. you have twice the distance and three times the lift. just my two cents. Also I'm sure you checked the impellers' though it shouldn't be the pumps considering you are on your third one.
John

[Sk8r]

I have an Iwaki 100 pushing water up a 1" hose that about 8 feet up, then over 8 feet, and if I didn't cut that flow back, water would blast out of the tank and hit the far side of the room. I have to halve it with a ball valve. Have you tried 'snaking' the line, ie, run wire through it and see if you've got some fat wad of algae or muck at an elbow?

[ExFOWLR]

having reread your last post I'm confused about how much wateryou are moving now. What exactly is the problem? Are you not moving any water or just not what you think you should?

[ForSaleByAndy]

It's probably a little cerith or something that took a swim and died and got stuck. I had the same problem, -- it was really making me mad. I even bought a plumbing auger that passed through each time without issues.

It wasn't until I tore out my plumbing and was able to actually play detective that I discovered the dead snail shell restricting flow. The shell was on an angle just enough to block flow but allow a snake/auger to get around it.

[samwrang]

Solved!

So I snapped and started cutting the return line in places where I heard the water stop and couldn't believe the amount of debris in the line. It's some kind of calcified material that when lined with algae formed a perfect damn. It was packed so tight I couldn't push it out with a snake or screwdriver (it was like stone) so I actually had to cut it out of the line in two places.

As suspected I now have a friggin firehose of water blasting the tank from the GenX and apparently two brand new hammerheads for sale. Thanks for everyone for their suggestions.

On a related note...what is that calcified material? I could have filled a 1 litre container with it.

[samwrang]

The debris looks like brown stone cornflakes. Almost like sand turned to stone. I've got a full cereal box full.

[ForSaleByAndy]

I think that's one of the complaints about the flex.
It isn't perfectly smooth on the inside and can clog up like an artery before it causes a heart attack.
It allows some stuff to snag and catch, where it can quickly grow/harden into a big mass that causes the issue.