First SW Tank: Need some advice.

[erikras]

Hello and thanks for reading my first post here. I've had a couple of freshwater tanks in the past, but this is my first saltwater setup. My goal is a Fish Only With Live Rock setup with a live sand base. At the moment, the tank is empty since my RO/DI system has not arrived yet.

Here's a quick rundown of my equipment:
Fluval Osaka 320 Tank and Stand. (~84gal)
DIY Lexan canopy
Fluval 405 Canister Filter
300watt heater
2x 54W T5HO lighting
2x Hydor Koralia 750GPM powerheads
ReefKeeper Lite (To control lighting, heater, and I like the idea of the "standby" mode for feeding.)
ReefKeeper MLC with blue LED's (The girlfriend really wanted "pretty blue" lights.)
Protein Skimmer (Yet to purchase. Will have to be a hang-on-back unit.)

Support Equipment:
BRS 75GPD RO/DI System Feeding a 30gal trash can with a Maxi-Jet 400 powerhead and 300watt heater for a mixing vessel.
Marine Depot refractometer
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Marine Test Kit
20gal quarantine tank with a Fluval U2 underwater filter

Now for my questions...

1) I've purchased 60LBS of Carib-Sea Arago-Live (sp?) live sand from the LFS. I've done A LOT of reading on DSB's and such and keep getting myself more confused. How deep should I really go? Can I buy regular aragonite dead sand to make up for the rest? How many pounds total?

2) Regarding Live Rock, would 45 pounds be enough with the additional biological filtration of the sand and canister filter? I was thinking of buying a 45lb box of Fiji Standard Live Rock from LiveAquaria.com and an additional 50 or so pounds of Reef Saver dry rock from BRS. I've also read about a half dozen methods of supporting the live rock and arguments for and against putting it on the bare glass bottom of the tank. Opinions?

3) Once the tank is filled with saltwater, should I fully cure the live rock before adding any live sand?

4) Are canister filters really the "nitrate factories" people say they are? Any personal experiences? My thinking is that if nitrates become a major problem, the biological media could be removed and I could rely on the LR and LS while carefully monitoring ammonia and nitrite levels.

5) What are people using as water conditioners with their RO/DI water?

6) Once it comes time to add a clean up crew, how are you supposed to know if one of your twenty or so snails died in the sand? How the HECK do you find it and get it out?

7) Recommendations for an effective (and preferably quiet) HOB protein skimmer?

Thanks much and I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way!

[HanoverFist]

I just got to the 4 month mark on my first saltwater tank. So let me offer you some solid newbie advice.

First off you should plan on corals just to be safe here. I ended up with them even though I planned a FOWLR too. In fact I had corals before fish...yes I know. Only adjustment you'd really need to make at this point is a 4 bulb T-5 setup would be a preferable starting point than a 2 bulb. Unless you want to go with LEDs which can be done cheaply if you go DIY.

As for Skimmer I recommend you invest in a Octopus brand hob skimmer. I just picked up a nice CPR, good too, but wish I could have snagged an Octopus just because I hear so much good about them.

Equipment list looks good. Don't forget you'll prob want to start with a 200g box of salt too, and that's $50. Pick a good brand and stick with it. I use Instant Ocean as do many, many others.

I also recommend picking up Alkalinity and Calcium test kits. Unless you are hardcore serious about never having corals (in which case you can lose 75% of your equipment list) you will want to manage your pH, alk and calcium at some point. Magnesium too but thats so rare one can hit the LFS to get that tested if they think its become an issue.


1) You can use all dead sand if you want. Only things that matter are proper grain sizes and depth. 4-6" is recommend depth. This Sand Bed Calculator will help you figure out how much sand you need.

2) Don't use bio-balls or anything like that in the canister filter. It will only create more nitrates in the long run. Use it to run carbon, etc. You really want to have as much LR as you can. It will be a superior filter to anything else with proper skimming, etc. Again, if you truly only want FOWLR, then the LR is really just aesthetics for the most part and you'd be fine with a small amount. I'd recommend getting 85-125 lbs and using it. Best to plan for the future rather than tear tank apart 6 months from now to add some stupid rock eh? Marco rocks has some good deals w/ free shipping and are as popular as BRS around here. They even have LR/LS packages.

3) If using dry rock just get everything on the tank (except fish) and start the cycle. Don't forget you need to kick start cycle with some fish food daily or pieces of raw shrimp. If using shrimp use a few small 1" cubes not entire shrimp unless you have a massive tank. You'll cycle no problem but it may take ages for all the ammonia a full shrimp produces to drop down.

4) yes they are. At this point you probably know enough about the nitrate cycle that if you consider how they work you'll see why they are nitrate factories. They were meant to keep ammonia and nitrite levels low back in the day. We've since moved beyond that type of thinking and run a system that will handle the ENTIRE nitrate cycle - LR + Skimmer + DSB + WC. As far as using the biomedia and removing later, that's part of the biological filtration system you'd be removing - which means a mini-cycle most likely. You don't want to trigger a mini-cycle later in a live tank. Just let your LR and LS grow a good enough bacteria population to do the work themselves. They're both much more porous than biomedia anyways.

5) You do not need to "condition" RO/DI water. That'd defeat the purpose. It's supposed to be pure h2o. Salt is the conditioner here. As well as various buffers, dosing you may need to control pH, etc. But those are all tank-specific for the most part so best left to each individual.

6) Snails dying won't be an issue. The scavengers of the CUC will devour them before you realize it's dead. Heck, crabs have no problem eating one alive ya know. Unless you have a mass die-off don't worry about your CUC fouling your tank. In fact, they'll be the ones that help prevent a problem when there is a death.

7) I recommend the Octopus series above. I'm using a CPR BakPak 2R+ myself and it's nice. Bit noisy but i'm not sure how noisy in comparison to others. It's 5' from my tv and isn't a big deal though. It's just the pump noise from it drawing in air.


edit: I recommend finding some Chaeto near the middle/end of your cycle. I added some and I never got any algae bloom. I thank the chaeto daily for this.

[sheaD]

I second the Octopus brand skimmer's. Great skimmer for the money IMO.

[Sugar Magnolia]

1) I've purchased 60LBS of Carib-Sea Arago-Live (sp?) live sand from the LFS. I've done A LOT of reading on DSB's and such and keep getting myself more confused. How deep should I really go? Can I buy regular aragonite dead sand to make up for the rest? How many pounds total?

Yes, dry aragonite is fine to make up the bulk of your sand bed. Keep in mind, the Aragalive sanjust has some biological bacteria in it, no microfauna like worms and such. T add diversity to your tank, see if anyone local can give you a cup or two of live sand from their tank.

2) Regarding Live Rock, would 45 pounds be enough with the additional biological filtration of the sand and canister filter? I was thinking of buying a 45lb box of Fiji Standard Live Rock from LiveAquaria.com and an additional 50 or so pounds of Reef Saver dry rock from BRS. I've also read about a half dozen methods of supporting the live rock and arguments for and against putting it on the bare glass bottom of the tank. Opinions?

Adding dry base rock is an economical way to add rock to the tank. Over time, you won't be able to tell which was live and which was dry. If you are going with a deep sand bed, place a piece of egg crate on the bottom of the tank before adding the sand to support the LR.


3) Once the tank is filled with saltwater, should I fully cure the live rock before adding any live sand?

You can just add everything at once.

4) Are canister filters really the "nitrate factories" people say they are? Any personal experiences? My thinking is that if nitrates become a major problem, the biological media could be removed and I could rely on the LR and LS while carefully monitoring ammonia and nitrite levels.

The reason people say that canister filters can become nitrate factories, is because, if left uncleaned, over time, a ton of detritus gets trapped inside, which will lead to elevated nitrates. Canisters are fine to run, and are a good place to run GFO and carbon, but MUST be cleaned periodically. When I used a canister, I took it off the tank monthly and gave it a good rinse inside with some hot water, media was changed out per the media instructions, micron filters were changed weekly, and sponges were rinsed weekly, and replaced monthly.


5) What are people using as water conditioners with their RO/DI water?

No water conditioners are needed with RO/DI water.

6) Once it comes time to add a clean up crew, how are you supposed to know if one of your twenty or so snails died in the sand? How the HECK do you find it and get it out?

A dead snail here and there is an inevitablilty. The rest of your clean up crew and any bristleworms from the rocks will wuickly clean up the dead snail for you. I leave the empty snail shells in my tank for hermits to use as they grow.

7) Recommendations for an effective (and preferably quiet) HOB protein skimmer?

Deltec skimmers are another good skimmer, but a bit more expensive

[mystikdragon7]

Good info from Hanoverfist!!

Originally Posted by erikras

Now for my questions...

1) I've purchased 60LBS of Carib-Sea Arago-Live (sp?) live sand from the LFS. I've done A LOT of reading on DSB's and such and keep getting myself more confused. How deep should I really go? Can I buy regular aragonite dead sand to make up for the rest? How many pounds total?

If you really want a DSB then I would suggest at least 4-6 inches of fine sand. And to keep it cheaper I wouldn't buy all live sand because that will get hugely expensive. Using regular sand is just as good because when it's cycling it will become LS. Without knowing the dimensions of your tank it would be best to use the sand bed calculator on this site to know how much sand you will actually need.

Originally Posted by erikras

2) Regarding Live Rock, would 45 pounds be enough with the additional biological filtration of the sand and canister filter? I was thinking of buying a 45lb box of Fiji Standard Live Rock from LiveAquaria.com and an additional 50 or so pounds of Reef Saver dry rock from BRS. I've also read about a half dozen methods of supporting the live rock and arguments for and against putting it on the bare glass bottom of the tank. Opinions?

If you truly want a FOWLER set up then I think 45 pounds would be just fine for your 85gal tank. But depending on what you want to put in your tank depends also. Do you want to add fish such as puffers or triggers? If so they are very messy dirty eaters and will require more water quality maintenance. So an additional 50 pounds of LR would help out tremendously with your water quality and help keep down on the water changes. But keep in mind, the more LR the less swimming space for your fish, but it all just depends on what you want to stock your tank with.

Originally Posted by erikras

3) Once the tank is filled with saltwater, should I fully cure the live rock before adding any live sand?

If you want a DSB I would add all the LS first and then your LR. Then while your LS is cycling your tank you could be curing all your LR in a big trash can. Or you could just add the sand and then the LR at the same time and let it all cycle your tank.

Originally Posted by erikras

4) Are canister filters really the "nitrate factories" people say they are? Any personal experiences? My thinking is that if nitrates become a major problem, the biological media could be removed and I could rely on the LR and LS while carefully monitoring ammonia and nitrite levels.

I don't have any personal experience with canister filters but I think they are a bit better than trickle filters which are known for being nitrate factories. I would use it only for biomedia filtration such as running carbon in it. It can be use for other things like running phosban in it if you ever get an algae boom (which you will trust me lol). Also, if you're starting to get high nitrates why would you want to remove filtration? Are talking about during the cycling process, or after you have added livestock to your tank? WC are the best cure for high nitrates. If you are still having high nitrates after a few WC then you need to be looking elsewhere for the problem.

Originally Posted by erikras

5) What are people using as water conditioners with their RO/DI water?

There is no need to condition your water after you just purified it from your RO/DI. Your salt mix will all take care of that for you.

Originally Posted by erikras

6) Once it comes time to add a clean up crew, how are you supposed to know if one of your twenty or so snails died in the sand? How the HECK do you find it and get it out?

If you see a snail that hasn't moved for a while or is upside down (turbo snails are notorious for this) just reach in with tongs or with gloves and pick it up a lay it back right side up. If it still doesn't move take it out of the tank and give it a good whiff. If it smells worse than your kids dirty diaper then it's dead and you need to toss it. Also, if you see a hoard of hermits and/or a ton of bristle worms around it then it's a sure sign of it being dead.

Originally Posted by erikras

7) Recommendations for an effective (and preferably quiet) HOB protein skimmer?

I go with what was already said here, the octopus!

Might I also add that IMO you should get two heaters at about 200w each and not run just one heater. What kind of heaters do you have or are you getting? I would also recommend getting salifert test kits they are just about the best out there. I haven't had that great of experience with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. Hope you have fun getting this going and the best advice I can give is to NEVER RUSH THINGS.

[erikras]

Wow! Thanks everyone for the excellent and detailed replies. I'll try to address everyone's points/questions here...

I stumbled across the sand bed calculator last night. It was of a lot of help.

I talked it over with my girlfriend. She's going to pitch in for an additional 45lbs of live rock for a total of 90. That should do me well in a tank that measures roughly 48L, 25H, 18D.

Since I work for a contractor, I'll swing buy one of our suppliers and pick up some egg crate. I'd be willing to bet I can probably get a broken piece for free.

I had a Marineland Magnum 350 canister back in the day on my 38gal freshwater. I know how nasty those things can get. (Having the clear canister was a great reminder everytime I opened the stand to grab some food.) I see myself rinsing at least every two weeks and replacing media every four. If I get 90lbs of LR and 60+ lbs of LS, should I just leave out the ceramic bio media that Fluval provides?

The Fluval E300 heater was included with the tank. I plan to leave it set at the desired tank temp with the DA RKL set two or three degrees higher. That way if the E300 sticks on, hopefully the RKL will kill the power to it.

The API ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kits were leftovers from my freshwater aquarium. I still need a pH test kit and a few others. I was already considering the Salifert kits so I'll probably go with them.

Thanks again!

[Angel*Fish]

I assume you've read this on dsb's? http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html It's long and there's lots of detail near the end about sand size and shape (oolitic is best, I believe) and how to start your dsb, how much live sand to seed with, etc. He recommends using 10% live sand, but in my experience that wasn't necessary. That may depend on how much of a hurry you're in.

Also, there is no need to run a physical filter 24/7. It's nice to be able to run carbon or place a filter sock occasionally, but sponges filters are not necessary or, in my opinion, desirable. Since you haven't filled the tank yet, this is just my two cents on what I would do. I'd get it drilled and have an over flow put in and adapt a smaller tank as a sump. Many LFS's can do this for you. Then I'd get rid of the cannister filter.

[erikras]

Originally Posted by Angel*Fish

I assume you've read this on dsb's? http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html It's long and there's lots of detail near the end about sand size and shape (oolitic is best, I believe) and how to start your dsb, how much live sand to seed with, etc. He recommends using 10% live sand, but in my experience that wasn't necessary. That may depend on how much of a hurry you're in.

I have not yet read that particular article. I definitely will this evening. Only thing that has me confused is that I've read a number of posts by people saying that they didn't have much luck with a DSB and went back to 1-2" and have had better success. Were these people just doing something wrong or lacked the experience to realize the benefits?

[erikras]

Oops double post.

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by erikras

I have not yet read that particular article. I definitely will this evening. Only thing that has me confused is that I've read a number of posts by people saying that they didn't have much luck with a DSB and went back to 1-2" and have had better success. Were these people just doing something wrong or lacked the experience to realize the benefits?

I would say they were probably doing something wrong. There is so much misunderstanding about dsbs and how to do them. Dr. Shimek is an expert on dsb's, many would say THE expert, and I used his info for setting up mine. Once my dsb was established, my tank seemed bulletproof. It was a heavily fed, high nutrient tank - but no algae. I did run a refugium with chaeto, but my chaeto didn't grow like crazy as some describe. I had a really oversized powerful skimmer, but it was rarely working right, so I'm not inclined to give much credit there.

Dsb's are low maintenance and "easy", but you have to have an understanding of what your doing. Here's what worked for me:
1) I set it up correctly - I used oolitic sand which is least abrasive and leaves space for water. I believe it was what is called sugarfine in size, but I don't remember the grain size range. I did buy what R.Shimek recommended.
2) It's probably great to do so, but I never ordered a dsb critter kit I just got sand full of worms, etc. from various reefers at my local club. I also bought like 5 of those burrowing snails (nassarious? - sorry it's been a long time) Also live rock with worms. Every few months I'd do a sand trade - just like a quarter cup - with another hobbyist.
3) I rarely disturbed the sand bed except a bit on the front glass about an inch deep.
4) I never kept any wrasses or other fish that would eat my worms or pods, except for my mandarins and the population was enough to sustain them. I over fed to make sure the worms and pods had plenty to eat.
5) I don't know how much it matters, but since I did it I'm including it. I fed DT's to the tank. I think that helps feed the pods, but honestly, I'm not sure.
6) Patience - it took a year to be fully operational. But maybe that's because I started with dry sand and a very small amount of seeding

The reason all this is past tense is because I lost my tank to Hurricane Ike. I'm going to reseed the sand bed and start over this month as soon as I get my new return pump.

Be aware that a dsb does deplete O2 very fast. You have to make sure there's plenty of oxygenation.

[erikras]

Originally Posted by Angel*Fish

I would say they were probably doing something wrong. There is so much misunderstanding about dsbs and how to do them. Dr. Shimek is an expert on dsb's, many would say THE expert, and I used his info for setting up mine. Once my dsb was established, my tank seemed bulletproof. It was a heavily fed, high nutrient tank - but no algae. I did run a refugium with chaeto, but my chaeto didn't grow like crazy as some describe. I had a really oversized powerful skimmer, but it was rarely working right, so I'm not inclined to give much credit there.

Dsb's are low maintenance and "easy", but you have to have an understanding of what your doing. Here's what worked for me:
1) I set it up correctly - I used oolitic sand which is least abrasive and leaves space for water. I believe it was what is called sugarfine in size, but I don't remember the grain size range. I did buy what R.Shimek recommended.
2) It's probably great to do so, but I never ordered a dsb critter kit I just got sand full of worms, etc. from various reefers at my local club. I also bought like 5 of those burrowing snails (nassarious? - sorry it's been a long time) Also live rock with worms. Every few months I'd do a sand trade - just like a quarter cup - with another hobbyist.
3) I rarely disturbed the sand bed except a bit on the front glass about an inch deep.
4) I never kept any wrasses or other fish that would eat my worms or pods, except for my mandarins and the population was enough to sustain them. I over fed to make sure the worms and pods had plenty to eat.
5) I don't know how much it matters, but since I did it I'm including it. I fed DT's to the tank. I think that helps feed the pods, but honestly, I'm not sure.
6) Patience - it took a year to be fully operational. But maybe that's because I started with dry sand and a very small amount of seeding

The reason all this is past tense is because I lost my tank to Hurricane Ike. I'm going to reseed the sand bed and start over this month as soon as I get my new return pump.

Be aware that a dsb does deplete O2 very fast. You have to make sure there's plenty of oxygenation.

Marie,
Thanks once again for the detailed reply. I thoroughly read Dr. Shimek's article and it definitely shined some light on the topic. My only concern is that the fine Carib Sea Arago-Live sand that I've already purchased won't be quite the right grain size. I'll look into finding the right oolitic sand to mix with it for the rest.

[erikras]

It seems I can get the 40lb bags of Carib Sea Ocean Direct Oolite relatively cheap from Foster & Smith Aquatics.

http://www.caribsea.com/pages/produc...an_direct.html

Am I headed the right direction?

[Angel*Fish]

That product is new to me - it sure sounds good. I'd think as long as the particle size is right, it would be pretty awesome. You're still going to need more seeding animals. I got to thinking about it and I realized that the people I was getting sand from were Project DIBS breeders. if I hadn't had that source, I definitely would have ordered detrivore kits. That looks like what I'm going to have to do this time since DIBS seems to have dissolved.