Have enough of Tropic Marin Pro Salt

this is me · 02/04/2011, 09:05 AM

What is up with Tropic Marin? I've using TMP for years(almost 7 years now!) and it was pretty consistent from bucket to bucket(8.5dKH and 450ppm ca). Recently, I bought a bucket and it tested at 7dKH. I informed the store owner and he said bring the bucket in and he'll swap a new one for me. I brought the new bucket home and did a water change last weekend. It tested at 5dKH!! 5!!
I was like okay, I guess I will just buff the ALK up and use up the bucket til I get something new. After about 3 weeks in with the "new formula" from the first bucket and the second, my acros are getting the burn tip. Anyone having this issue with low alk with the new Tropic Marin Pro salt mix?

I'm planning on changing my salt this weekend. Any suggestion? Coralife? Oceanic? ESV?

Allmost · 02/04/2011, 09:11 AM

well I use the same salt for about the same period of time, never had Issues.

KH of 5 and you got burned tips? must be some other reason as higher KH tends tyo burn SPS tips, not lower. but lower KH can cause RTN and STN !

what are the values for MG++ and CA++ for the bucket that tests 5 DKH,.
any posibility on a change on the way you mixed it ? any precipitation ?

I have switched to KZ RBS for a while now, corals are loving it, but my wallet is hating it lloll

this is me · 02/04/2011, 09:26 AM

CA was tested at around 440ppm with the bucket of 5dKH.
Mixed it the same way I usually do. RO/DI water with a maxijet for at least 12hours(overnight). Then when I'm ready to do my waterchange, I put a heater to heat up the water but most of the time I don't need to do that since the maxijet can heat up the 5gallon water do about the same temperature as my tank. In the summer time, I would have to actually cool the water first.

Sebastian J. · 02/04/2011, 09:27 AM

Are you sure your tests are valid? With erratic results from a mass product (Did the buckets come with a batch number or something? And did you contact TMC about it?) and ALK burns after readjusting your alkalinity to fit, I'd suspect that it's the test that might be showing the wrong results. I'd counter-check with a new test kit or at least have the LFS check it to make sure.

this is me · 02/04/2011, 09:38 AM

I was surprised too when I got the result. I usually have two different ALK kit(one Elos and one Sera) and they bought tested low. I also bought another Elos kit and it tested low also. I tested the tank water right after I got the low KH result from my first bucket and it was at 9dKH which is always the level I keep my alk at.

fishysteve · 02/04/2011, 10:15 AM

Did you mix up the bucket before you scooped out what you needed? It can stratify during shipment. I don't know if that's the right word for it.

RokleM · 02/04/2011, 10:31 AM

I'm going to stop using as well. TMP always use to mix in at 8-9 dKh, but my recent buckets have all been 5-7ish. Contacting them, it appears they claim ZERO changes and that's the way it's meant to be, which isn't true becuase I also have used it for many years. Some weird explanation as to it being formulated for calcium reactor based tanks, which of course goes against most of what we all preach, pick a parameter set, use 2 part/reactor/whatever to maintain it, and do your best to have your salt match.

None the less, looking for alternatives now. I have been mixing IO and TMP to balance out, but not sure I want to bother anymore.

syrinx · 02/04/2011, 11:41 AM

Tropic marin pro reef has always been lower in kh than the other tropic marins- it has always stated that on the lable as it is designed for tanks with calcium reactors.

this is me · 02/04/2011, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syrinx

Tropic marin pro reef has always been lower in kh than the other tropic marins- it has always stated that on the lable as it is designed for tanks with calcium reactors.

While it is true that the Pro is lower in alk than the regular TM, calcium and other parameters are more in line hence the premium price on the Pro.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505
Having an ALK of 8.5KH, 450ppm CA, and 1380ppm MG was the appealing factor for me on the TMP. I didn't have to add anything when mixing my saltwater.

I will probably switch to Coralife....

thcmusic · 02/04/2011, 12:56 PM

Something is definately different with the newer batches. The last two buckets I have used were both hard as a rock (somehow moisture must be getting in ... or could it be something else)? This was not a problem before ...

RokleM · 02/04/2011, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syrinx

Tropic marin pro reef has always been lower in kh than the other tropic marins- it has always stated that on the lable as it is designed for tanks with calcium reactors.

The point we're making is, they've dropped it even further, low enough that most of us can't even use it anymore without "fixing" it first. I'll try to find the info again, but they claim zero changes, yet many of us that have been using it for years report the same. It use to be 8-9 (via elos and lamotte kits) and now is critically low, even for those crazy "I have to keep off the chart low values for my zeo"

syrinx · 02/04/2011, 01:40 PM

Ah- my bad- all I can guess is settling of ingredients- if what they say is true. I use it on one tank- have not noticed any changes. I store most of my salt in 40 gallon rubbermaid food grade cans, so its easy to keep mixed.

RokleM · 02/04/2011, 01:49 PM

Nope, this is definitely a HUGE bad batch or likely a change they don't want to admit. Over the last 3-5 months people have been reporting it, people who have used it for years. I have multiple bad buckets from different distributor shipments over an extended period. I also mix the bucket VERY well before use (I have multiple other buckets I use to mix/stir everything as soon as I open the container). I've used at least 50-100 buckets over the years with the same process and can pretty much guarantee you this is almost assuredly not a user error or settling type of situation.

I'd suggest checking your alk level on a new bucket.

fancyfish · 02/04/2011, 01:57 PM

used to use tropic marine. I have been using brightwell salt. my parameters are fabulous, my PH stays around 8.3-8.4 calcium 450. not sure on the dkh as I have not tested this. my tank is mostly lps. kind of expensive but worth it in my opinion

saleen2881 · 02/04/2011, 02:46 PM

This really sucks becuse I just bought a bucket of tmp yesterday. What should I do can I return it I bought it online?

njudson · 02/04/2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thcmusic

Something is definately different with the newer batches. The last two buckets I have used were both hard as a rock (somehow moisture must be getting in ... or could it be something else)? This was not a problem before ...

Recently got a bucket of Bio Actif like this. Broke it up mixed some up and it tested fine - Ca 440 Alk 8.5ish Mag 1260 at 1.026. So I'm using it but something is up with moisture im sure.

Makenna · 02/04/2011, 03:34 PM

I had the same problem with a bucket of TMPRo...Alk showed a bit over 5DKH. As the OP stated, I buffered it up and used it and I also had issues with the tips of SPS. The 'burned' certainly applied to my issues as well.

Checked with the LFS i bought it from and he reported similiar issues as he uses it in store. He returned all of his stock and I am now using the ESV product. A great salt thus far.

saleen2881 · 02/04/2011, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allmost

well I use the same salt for about the same period of time, never had Issues.

KH of 5 and you got burned tips? must be some other reason as higher KH tends tyo burn SPS tips, not lower. but lower KH can cause RTN and STN !

what are the values for MG++ and CA++ for the bucket that tests 5 DKH,.
any posibility on a change on the way you mixed it ? any precipitation ?

I have switched to KZ RBS for a while now, corals are loving it, but my wallet is hating it lloll

What is RNT and STN?

Clemente · 02/04/2011, 06:11 PM

RTN = rapid tissue necrosis, STN = slow tissue necrosis

saleen2881 · 02/04/2011, 10:34 PM

What should i do if I just bought a bucket online and it tested at 6 KH what should I do? Can i return it?

this is me · 02/05/2011, 08:03 AM

You can call where you bought it from and talk with them. Even they agree to take from your return, you're most likely have to pay for shipping and that can cost a lot.
This is the reason I don't buy salt mix from online vender.
I would call them and see what they can do for you. Good luck

tozzi · 02/05/2011, 08:19 AM

Sad news, tropic pro is my favorite salt. Usually buy 4-5 buckets a time and was lookin to restock this month. A good alternative i have used is d+d but i dont like the residue it has left in the past. I did hear they corrected this and it doesnt happen with newer batches though. Its low alk so its also good for zeo

Skins · 02/05/2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thcmusic

Something is definately different with the newer batches. The last two buckets I have used were both hard as a rock (somehow moisture must be getting in ... or could it be something else)? This was not a problem before ...

Same here. $100 brick.

Hans-Werner · 02/11/2011, 02:55 AM

Hello,

I am the product manager of Tropic Marin/Dr. Biener GmbH in Germany.
First problem: The hardenings occured after we have changed to a higher grade and more expensive calcium salt. Problems occured in hot climates and last summer was hot in the United States I think. We try to get rid of the problem and to exchange all hardend salt.

Second Problem: The overall formula has not been changed. As far as I know Nick has never tried to contact us.
PRO-REEF has never had a KH higher than 7° at 35 PSU salinity. If you make up saltwater with a lower salinity it will result in lower KH, of course.
Higher KH in the salt could rapidly result in KH higher than 8° when running a calcium reactor or adding two/three part calcium additives. Since KH higher than 8° can cause serious problems with SPS we still are convinced that 7° KH is a very good KH for a reef salt and we will not change it.
Natural seawater has a KH of only 6.5° at 35 PSU ("normalized alkalinity").

It is difficult to provoke problems by low KH. I am sure you will hardly be able to see any effect of KH as low as 5°. Since I have developed the Balling-Method in 1994 I have some experince with this theme.

Hans-Werner

RokleM · 02/11/2011, 09:13 AM

Hans-Werner,

Thanks for the response. The issue is however that while you're reporting no change, many of us seasoned reefers HAVE seen a change in the dKH of the buckets having used the products for years. How do you explain the number of us that have seen this issue considering we're all using different test kits, different refractometers, etc? If we were all using salifert for example and happened to all get the same batch of bad test kits at once and all opened a new bucket a the same time... then clearly it could be the kit. I have a stack of TMP buckets that was almost past my waist (and that's after getting rid of many), so I and many of us are not new to the brand or the parameters it has produced in the past vs what we're seeing now. I'm not calling you out as a liar about the salt, but clearly something seems to have changed (intentional or not) or all of us wouldn't be reporting the issue.

As for the general reef parameters, this is the difference I believe in US vs euro reefkeeping. In the US dosing and calcium reactors should have ZERO impact on your current alk/calc/mag levels. These products and devices are built and used to exactly replace the amount of alk/calc/mag used by corals. If your corals use 1 dKH in a 24 hour period, you dose or tune your reactor to replace 1 dKH in a 24 hours period. It's impossible for dosing or reactors to increase levels unless they're set up wrong. As well, unless you're running a zeo tank, the vast majority would day 6-7 dDH is very low and around 5 you should be in panic mode. 8-12 is the norm, with many running right around 8.5-9.5 via forum polls. Again, maybe in general it's different corals being kept, different setups with salt and/or tank equipment, but what you're stating is quite out of the norm or recommended practice here in the US.

02/04/2011, 09:05 AM	#1
this is me Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,074	Have enough of Tropic Marin Pro Salt What is up with Tropic Marin? I've using TMP for years(almost 7 years now!) and it was pretty consistent from bucket to bucket(8.5dKH and 450ppm ca). Recently, I bought a bucket and it tested at 7dKH. I informed the store owner and he said bring the bucket in and he'll swap a new one for me. I brought the new bucket home and did a water change last weekend. It tested at 5dKH!! 5!! I was like okay, I guess I will just buff the ALK up and use up the bucket til I get something new. After about 3 weeks in with the "new formula" from the first bucket and the second, my acros are getting the burn tip. Anyone having this issue with low alk with the new Tropic Marin Pro salt mix? I'm planning on changing my salt this weekend. Any suggestion? Coralife? Oceanic? ESV? __________________ Nick When a man talks dirty to a woman, it's sexual harassment. When a woman talks dirty to a man, it's $4.95 per minute. Current Tank Info: Miracle 360 gallons

02/04/2011, 09:26 AM	#3
this is me Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,074	CA was tested at around 440ppm with the bucket of 5dKH. Mixed it the same way I usually do. RO/DI water with a maxijet for at least 12hours(overnight). Then when I'm ready to do my waterchange, I put a heater to heat up the water but most of the time I don't need to do that since the maxijet can heat up the 5gallon water do about the same temperature as my tank. In the summer time, I would have to actually cool the water first. __________________ Nick When a man talks dirty to a woman, it's sexual harassment. When a woman talks dirty to a man, it's $4.95 per minute. Current Tank Info: Miracle 360 gallons

02/04/2011, 09:38 AM	#5
this is me Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,074	I was surprised too when I got the result. I usually have two different ALK kit(one Elos and one Sera) and they bought tested low. I also bought another Elos kit and it tested low also. I tested the tank water right after I got the low KH result from my first bucket and it was at 9dKH which is always the level I keep my alk at. __________________ Nick When a man talks dirty to a woman, it's sexual harassment. When a woman talks dirty to a man, it's $4.95 per minute. Current Tank Info: Miracle 360 gallons

02/04/2011, 10:15 AM	#6
fishysteve Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,804	Did you mix up the bucket before you scooped out what you needed? It can stratify during shipment. I don't know if that's the right word for it. __________________ On a break

02/04/2011, 10:31 AM	#7
RokleM Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 9,687	I'm going to stop using as well. TMP always use to mix in at 8-9 dKh, but my recent buckets have all been 5-7ish. Contacting them, it appears they claim ZERO changes and that's the way it's meant to be, which isn't true becuase I also have used it for many years. Some weird explanation as to it being formulated for calcium reactor based tanks, which of course goes against most of what we all preach, pick a parameter set, use 2 part/reactor/whatever to maintain it, and do your best to have your salt match. None the less, looking for alternatives now. I have been mixing IO and TMP to balance out, but not sure I want to bother anymore. __________________ -Eric-

02/04/2011, 09:11 AM	#2
Allmost Moved On Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: canada, toronto Posts: 8,161	well I use the same salt for about the same period of time, never had Issues. KH of 5 and you got burned tips? must be some other reason as higher KH tends tyo burn SPS tips, not lower. but lower KH can cause RTN and STN ! what are the values for MG++ and CA++ for the bucket that tests 5 DKH,. any posibility on a change on the way you mixed it ? any precipitation ? I have switched to KZ RBS for a while now, corals are loving it, but my wallet is hating it lloll

02/04/2011, 09:27 AM	#4
Sebastian J. Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 74	Are you sure your tests are valid? With erratic results from a mass product (Did the buckets come with a batch number or something? And did you contact TMC about it?) and ALK burns after readjusting your alkalinity to fit, I'd suspect that it's the test that might be showing the wrong results. I'd counter-check with a new test kit or at least have the LFS check it to make sure.

02/04/2011, 11:41 AM	#8
syrinx Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: champaign Posts: 3,160	Tropic marin pro reef has always been lower in kh than the other tropic marins- it has always stated that on the lable as it is designed for tanks with calcium reactors.

02/04/2011, 12:56 PM	#10
thcmusic Registered Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: New Lenox, Illinois Posts: 97	Something is definately different with the newer batches. The last two buckets I have used were both hard as a rock (somehow moisture must be getting in ... or could it be something else)? This was not a problem before ... __________________ Todd C. Life: Dog Face Puffer, Blue Jaw Trigger, Christmas Wrasse, Coral Beauty, Pearly Jaw, Comet, Gold Bar Maroon, Engineer Goby, Mantis Shrimp, Pistol Shrimp, Cabbage Leather Coral, Golden Sea Rod, Medusa Worm, Yellow Cucs, Blue Leg Hermits Current Tank Info: 120g, TBS LR, 4"DSB, 48"SunDialT5, EshoppsPF1800, TriggerSys Ruby36E, L.G.4-MDQX-SC pump, 2-MP40wES+1-MP10wES, BlueLine Temp Controler (500w), SRO2000EXT Skimmer, TurboTwist 6x UV, Osmolator, Pinpoint pH Monitor, GEO reactor w/AC

02/04/2011, 01:40 PM	#12
syrinx Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: champaign Posts: 3,160	Ah- my bad- all I can guess is settling of ingredients- if what they say is true. I use it on one tank- have not noticed any changes. I store most of my salt in 40 gallon rubbermaid food grade cans, so its easy to keep mixed.

02/04/2011, 01:49 PM	#13
RokleM Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 9,687	Nope, this is definitely a HUGE bad batch or likely a change they don't want to admit. Over the last 3-5 months people have been reporting it, people who have used it for years. I have multiple bad buckets from different distributor shipments over an extended period. I also mix the bucket VERY well before use (I have multiple other buckets I use to mix/stir everything as soon as I open the container). I've used at least 50-100 buckets over the years with the same process and can pretty much guarantee you this is almost assuredly not a user error or settling type of situation. I'd suggest checking your alk level on a new bucket. __________________ -Eric-

02/04/2011, 01:57 PM	#14
fancyfish Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,418	used to use tropic marine. I have been using brightwell salt. my parameters are fabulous, my PH stays around 8.3-8.4 calcium 450. not sure on the dkh as I have not tested this. my tank is mostly lps. kind of expensive but worth it in my opinion __________________ The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax. Albert Einstein I hate micro-bubbles!! Current Tank Info: 215 gallon oceanic Ultimate with starfire front, 3-250 watt metal halide, 4-36 inch 39 watt T-5 actinic and daylight bulbs, aquamedic turboflotor shorty with mesh mod 3-Tunze Turbelle® stream 6105 with controller, 40 gallon sump

02/04/2011, 02:46 PM	#15
saleen2881 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Beverly Hills, CA Posts: 416	This really sucks becuse I just bought a bucket of tmp yesterday. What should I do can I return it I bought it online?

02/04/2011, 03:34 PM	#17
Makenna Moved On Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 243	I had the same problem with a bucket of TMPRo...Alk showed a bit over 5DKH. As the OP stated, I buffered it up and used it and I also had issues with the tips of SPS. The 'burned' certainly applied to my issues as well. Checked with the LFS i bought it from and he reported similiar issues as he uses it in store. He returned all of his stock and I am now using the ESV product. A great salt thus far.

02/04/2011, 06:11 PM	#19
Clemente Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Las Piedras, Puerto Rico Posts: 12	RTN = rapid tissue necrosis, STN = slow tissue necrosis

02/04/2011, 10:34 PM	#20
saleen2881 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Beverly Hills, CA Posts: 416	What should i do if I just bought a bucket online and it tested at 6 KH what should I do? Can i return it?

02/05/2011, 08:03 AM	#21
this is me Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,074	You can call where you bought it from and talk with them. Even they agree to take from your return, you're most likely have to pay for shipping and that can cost a lot. This is the reason I don't buy salt mix from online vender. I would call them and see what they can do for you. Good luck __________________ Nick When a man talks dirty to a woman, it's sexual harassment. When a woman talks dirty to a man, it's $4.95 per minute. Current Tank Info: Miracle 360 gallons

02/05/2011, 08:19 AM	#22
tozzi Registered Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: JERSEY Posts: 825	Sad news, tropic pro is my favorite salt. Usually buy 4-5 buckets a time and was lookin to restock this month. A good alternative i have used is d+d but i dont like the residue it has left in the past. I did hear they corrected this and it doesnt happen with newer batches though. Its low alk so its also good for zeo __________________ Your dealing with an expert in guerrilla warfare a man whos the best with guns knives his bare hands A man whos been trained to ignore pain ignore weather eat things that would make a billy goat puke Current Tank Info: 215 sps

02/11/2011, 02:55 AM	#24
Hans-Werner Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Lauterbach/Germany Posts: 80	Hello, I am the product manager of Tropic Marin/Dr. Biener GmbH in Germany. First problem: The hardenings occured after we have changed to a higher grade and more expensive calcium salt. Problems occured in hot climates and last summer was hot in the United States I think. We try to get rid of the problem and to exchange all hardend salt. Second Problem: The overall formula has not been changed. As far as I know Nick has never tried to contact us. PRO-REEF has never had a KH higher than 7° at 35 PSU salinity. If you make up saltwater with a lower salinity it will result in lower KH, of course. Higher KH in the salt could rapidly result in KH higher than 8° when running a calcium reactor or adding two/three part calcium additives. Since KH higher than 8° can cause serious problems with SPS we still are convinced that 7° KH is a very good KH for a reef salt and we will not change it. Natural seawater has a KH of only 6.5° at 35 PSU ("normalized alkalinity"). It is difficult to provoke problems by low KH. I am sure you will hardly be able to see any effect of KH as low as 5°. Since I have developed the Balling-Method in 1994 I have some experince with this theme. Hans-Werner

02/11/2011, 09:13 AM	#25
RokleM Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 9,687	Hans-Werner, Thanks for the response. The issue is however that while you're reporting no change, many of us seasoned reefers HAVE seen a change in the dKH of the buckets having used the products for years. How do you explain the number of us that have seen this issue considering we're all using different test kits, different refractometers, etc? If we were all using salifert for example and happened to all get the same batch of bad test kits at once and all opened a new bucket a the same time... then clearly it could be the kit. I have a stack of TMP buckets that was almost past my waist (and that's after getting rid of many), so I and many of us are not new to the brand or the parameters it has produced in the past vs what we're seeing now. I'm not calling you out as a liar about the salt, but clearly something seems to have changed (intentional or not) or all of us wouldn't be reporting the issue. As for the general reef parameters, this is the difference I believe in US vs euro reefkeeping. In the US dosing and calcium reactors should have ZERO impact on your current alk/calc/mag levels. These products and devices are built and used to exactly replace the amount of alk/calc/mag used by corals. If your corals use 1 dKH in a 24 hour period, you dose or tune your reactor to replace 1 dKH in a 24 hours period. It's impossible for dosing or reactors to increase levels unless they're set up wrong. As well, unless you're running a zeo tank, the vast majority would day 6-7 dDH is very low and around 5 you should be in panic mode. 8-12 is the norm, with many running right around 8.5-9.5 via forum polls. Again, maybe in general it's different corals being kept, different setups with salt and/or tank equipment, but what you're stating is quite out of the norm or recommended practice here in the US. __________________ -Eric-

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