I am in serious trouble!!!

[tlc2005]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this site and I am hoping that someone can help me even though I am not setting up a reef tank. I started my saltwater tank on Jan 28th of this year, after my ammonia cleared I added fish to my tank. 8 fish on day one, 3 fish a few days after that. Shortly after I added the fish together I noticed ich on my flame angel and it spread through the tank like wild fire. Since then, each day I have had one fish die. I am down to three fish now (2 Banjii Cardinals and one Yellow Tang). Let me explain my tank some..

55 gallon tank
1 jet pump
Skilter Supreme 400
50 lb. live rock
40 lb. live sand (2 bags, I believe it was 20 lbs. per bag)
heater (temp. was set at 74 but went up to 80 when the ich was present)

The fish I started with:

1 flame angel
1 Naso tang (just died this morning, body turned black???)
1 Yellow tang (I am now able to see the veins in his mouth, lips turning kind of red)
2 Bangii Cardinals
2 Pajama Cardinals
1 Half black angel (did not know two angels could not be in the same tank!)

Water levels.. **I am using well water and I add API Stress Coat***

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10-15
Ph 8.2 - 8.4
Salt level 1.022

I learned real fast not to take advice from the local pet store due to the fact that all of those fish should not have been added to the tank the way that I did it however, with my levels staying in normal range and the ich being taken care of, my fish are still getting sick and dying. My Naso was my favorite fish in the tank, he had a great personality and was a great eater and then he started showing signs of stress, hiding behind the rocks and not eating. He also started changing colors, black on his sides. This morning, he was dead in the tank and he was completely black and his mouth was open the whole way. My other fish when they died, lost their color and their mouths were also open. Not enough oxygen? They have all died quickly, one day eating and then the next day they dont eat and they die that night. There is no ich present and I do not see anything else wrong with them. I am confused and really upset not only because of the amount of money I lost but because I loved my fish! Does anyone know what is going on??

Thanks!

[RedM3]

There are several problems here:

1. Your tank very well may not have finished the cycle, although I'm not certain. It was only started about 3 weeks ago. It usually takes 4-8 weeks.
2. Sounds like you know this, but you stocked way too much way too fast. Stocking 8 fish at once can actually create a mini-cycle. It was way too large of a bioload to add in all at once, and the good bacteria couldn't keep up which means ammonia - poison.
3. You didn't quarantine the fish. Having them in a QT tank for a couple weeks allows you to assess them for signs of disease so that it doesn't spread throughout your entire Display Tank. Now you'll need to treat your whole display tank for ich (will take about 8 weeks with no fish in there). Ich is still present even if you can't see it. There is a thread or two about it over the past couple days, and that'll give you more info on treating it.
4. You are overstocked in general. 11 fish is almost always way too much for a 55g.
5. The tank is too small for either one of the tangs, let alone both of them. Check the sticky for tank size recommendations. Tangs need a lot of room to swim and turn. The tank also needs to be very mature so they have stuff to graze on.

[125G Reefer]

Couple things. To many fish to fast. 1 jet pump?? How much flow is that? 400 Skilter is not a real skimmer, scrap that thing and try to find a decent skimmer. Trates are high, try to keep them under 5. You can kill Ich by a few ways, but your fish still have to eat. But, you didn't say what you were feeding the tank. Seeweed sheets for the tangs, and Mysys shrimp are both good foods. No need for Strees Coat. Try adding one fish at a time, possibly 2, adding the meanest fish last. As long as those fish were 3"-4" they will be alright in a 55g, but not long down the road you will have get rid of almost all of them, they will outgrow that will really fast.

[RedM3]

A few more questions so that good advice can be given on how to prevent this from happening to you again...

Are you running a sump? I'm guessing no...
Do you have a protein skimmer?

You'll want to make sure the water temperature stays between 78 and 82 degrees. Once your tank is ready for fish again, add them slowly - no more than 1 or 2 fish per week. In saltwater world, a 55g is a pretty small tank, and adding significant bioload all at once can be disastrous!

[needmore-reef]

yeah, I would get some good books so you don't have to rely on the info available at the LFS. The only appropriate fish for a new tank that size being maintaned by someone new to the hobby are the cardinals.

Seriously consider getting a 10 or 20 gallon quarentine tank, a great article is available on the ReefKeeping site.

[LSUJosh]

http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Aquariu.../dp/0982026218
Check out this book, I had set up a tank with nothing but rock, sand and water and read this book while it cycled. VERY helpful. It has entire chapter on diseases, symptoms and treatments.

[chogendoorn]

Well water is going to be a huge problem as well. You're going to want to invest in a RO/DI unit, otherwise the nutrients, minerals and other nasty things in your water are going to cause neverending issues.

[jdyer88]

Every reply has said or implied this: Too many fish, that were too big for your tank, added too quickly. Even if your intial "cycle" was finished, you essentially started a new one by adding a massive bioload. Forget about tangs in your 55g. I love naso tangs too but I wouldn't even have put one in my 90g. Now I have a 180g and one yellow tang. These fish need LOTS of room to swim. Consider a cool pair of clowns or something.

[Rocdoc]

Wow, sorry to hear about your losses. That's brutal. I agree with the too many too fast issue. I don't agree with the thought of putting tangs and other fish that need a lot of space in a too-small tank because you can just trade them in or sell them when they get too big. You need to research the eventual grown size of the fish you are considering and how much space they need (tangs for example need lots of open swimming space even if they aren't that big). The old rule of 1 inch of fully grown fish per gallon does not apply to saltwater aquaria.

The whole cycle thing is a real problem for people new to saltwater. The fact that your ammonia and nitrites went to zero meant that the tank was "cycled" to the point that it could just handle the output of any critters on your live rock. It does not mean that it is ready for fish. A better next step would have been to add a clean up crew (CUC) consisting of snails and perhaps hermit crabs (although some people don't recommend hermits at all if you are planning on corals). They would have added a small bioload and prepared your tank for a larger bioload. Then one or two fish at a time (following a 4-6 week quarantine in a separate tank).

You should go to your LFS and raise Cain with them for recommending such clearly ridiculous stocking methods. See if they will refund any of your money (or give you store credit). If they do, spend that money on a better skimmer, a cheap quarantine setup, and other needed equipment (not livestock). Then go find another LFS that isn't so obviously interested in stealing your money. Read all the stickies and ask lots of questions before you buy any additional livestock. There are many good LFS going out of business due to the economy. Vote with your wallet to help keep the responsible ones in business. I would never purchase another fish or take any further advice from your current store.

Again, sorry for the loss. Learn from it and don't give up.

[MrTuskfish]

+1 on everything said so far. You said the ich is being taken care of....how? I think this may be your most important problem right now.

[tlc2005]

Frozen Foods:

Mega Marine-Algae
Brine Shrimp
Mega Marine that contains mussel, squid, krill, shrimp, algae extract, cod liver, etc.
Omega One Marine flakes with garlic
New LIfe Spectrum Marine Formula
Seaweed with garlic

I am well aware of what each fish likes to eat and my fish have all been good eaters until the day that they end up getting sick and dying.
How many jet pumps do you suggest?
Was told by two different stores that the Skilter 400 was good to use with a 55 gallon tank.

[tlc2005]

Ich;

I used Aqua Herbals Ich Attack in the tank for the almost two weeks, I followed the bottle and treated the tank for 4 days after the last spots were gone. I did a 30% water changed, changed the filters and added the Stress Coat to the water. There are no signs of ich (i understand it's in the water) on the fish at this time.

[Zebodog]

I think the only tried and true method to irradicate ich (saltwater) is to allow your tank to go fallow in order to break the life cycle.

I suspect the stores told you the Skilter 400 was good because they were trying to sell it to you.

[tlc2005]

Thanks RocDoc!

I feel like giving up but in all honesty I have always wanted a saltwater tank. When I did set this one up, I was not told about the quarantine tank.. heck I wasn't told about anything. They seen the money and took it. I have lost all of my fish now but for three and my yellow tang is not looking very good today.

I was aware that the Tangs get big, my husband and I were going to get a bigger tank when it was needed. I was told by the stores that the smallers ones would be ok in the 55 gallon... I don't know. But an upgrade in the size of the tank was something we were going to do. Thankfully though I didn't jump that gun!

I guess I will just have to see if these three survive and then I will take your advice on the snails and hermit crabs. They were something I wanted to add but the issues that I am having with this tank are driving me crazy!

Thanks!

[tlc2005]

Well Water;

Even adding stress coat to the water wont help? I have been trying to think of things that could possibly be so different and the only thing I am coming up with is my water... However, overloading the tank before it was ready and all of the fish getting ich I am sure is part of the problem now... I do not know honestly, that's why I am posting on here.

[Zebodog]

The well water could be a potential source of problems.

A lot of folks use RO/DI filters as a way to purfiy their water prior to mixing salt water and using for top off.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by tlc2005

Ich;

I used Aqua Herbals Ich Attack in the tank for the almost two weeks, I followed the bottle and treated the tank for 4 days after the last spots were gone. I did a 30% water changed, changed the filters and added the Stress Coat to the water. There are no signs of ich (i understand it's in the water) on the fish at this time.

I hate to add this, but your store sold you a product that won't work. Only copper or hypo-salinity will cure ich. Stressed fish are at most risk. When you get through this; I'd suggest reading a couple good books on the hobby, cover to cover. Also read the stickys on this forum. There is a lot to learn in this great hobby/addiction; but trial and error isn't the way you want to go....most of us have learned much of that the hard way to. No matter what happens with your fish now, it should be at least 10 weeks before you plan adding any more fish

[heckfire]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

I hate to add this, but your store sold you a product that won't work. Only copper or hypo-salinity will cure ich. Stressed fish are at most risk. When you get through this; I'd suggest reading a couple good books on the hobby, cover to cover. Also read the stickys on this forum. There is a lot to learn in this great hobby/addiction; but trial and error isn't the way you want to go....most of us have learned much of that the hard way to. No matter what happens with your fish now, it should be at least 10 weeks before you plan adding any more fish

time will also kill ich, ive never treated for it and have never lost a fish,, but thats the smallest of her problems ,wrong fish too quick =s death. what annoys me the most is the lfs,, dont they realize that they are destroying fish populations with there sell sell sell mentality

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by heckfire

time will also kill ich, ive never treated for it and have never lost a fish,, but thats the smallest of her problems ,wrong fish too quick =s death. what annoys me the most is the lfs,, dont they realize that they are destroying fish populations with there sell sell sell mentality

Time will kill ich; assuming there are no fish in the tank.

[100%hydrophylic]

Originally Posted by tlc2005

Well Water;

Even adding stress coat to the water wont help? I have been trying to think of things that could possibly be so different and the only thing I am coming up with is my water... However, overloading the tank before it was ready and all of the fish getting ich I am sure is part of the problem now... I do not know honestly, that's why I am posting on here.

Right now thats not part of the problem, that is the problem.

I dont understand how the LFS would let you do that. The only stores i know around me that will sell you 8 marine fish at a time is like petco.

I would say find a different LFS and ask them if they will maybe give you store credit for all of your fish. Tell them your story and inform them they are stressed and were exposed to ick. if its a good LFS they have quarantines and places to treat sick fish. they may not give you credit, since the fish have a high possibility of dieing. but atleast the fish will have a better chance to survive.

After you return ALL of your fish, you need to let the tank sit in hyposalinity. DO NOT ADD ANY LIVING THING FOR 8 WEEKS. after that raise your salinity back to where its is supposed to be, using RO/DI WATER.

Thats just what i would do

[Mr.Mcgibblets]

Originally Posted by tlc2005

Well Water;

Even adding stress coat to the water wont help? I have been trying to think of things that could possibly be so different and the only thing I am coming up with is my water... However, overloading the tank before it was ready and all of the fish getting ich I am sure is part of the problem now... I do not know honestly, that's why I am posting on here.

I would suggest researching ich on this forum it seems to come up on a daily basis. Try using the search function for posts from "Sk8tr" he has posted the formula for handling ich outbreaks in great detail several times.

Sounds like your problems are all related to stocking to fast which causes stress in the fish which causes ich.

[125G Reefer]

Originally Posted by tlc2005

Well Water;

Even adding stress coat to the water wont help? I have been trying to think of things that could possibly be so different and the only thing I am coming up with is my water... However, overloading the tank before it was ready and all of the fish getting ich I am sure is part of the problem now... I do not know honestly, that's why I am posting on here.

Could be the water but I really doubt it. I used tap water for over 10 years, with salt fish, never an issue. You shocked the crap out of hte fish. Ask the fish guy you get fish from if they keep the fish in copper tanks or not. Just sit with what you have for now, give it a few weeks for your tank to catch back up with the bio load again, and try again. Lil more advice, I have a 240g tank, and only have 10 fish, does that help any? I know they are small, and in the short term that is ok, but they will grow up some time.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mcgibblets

I would suggest researching ich on this forum it seems to come up on a daily basis. Try using the search function for posts from "Sk8tr" he has posted the formula for handling ich outbreaks in great detail several times.

Sounds like your problems are all related to stocking to fast which causes stress in the fish which causes ich.

Stress can't cause ich, it can make a fish more likely to be to be attacked by the parasite. Either a tank has ich or it doesn't. If it does; sooner or later it will be a problem. Thus, the vital need to QT all newcomers.

[125G Reefer]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Stress can't cause ich, it can make a fish more likely to be to be attacked by the parasite. Either a tank has ich or it doesn't. If it does; sooner or later it will be a problem. Thus, the vital need to QT all newcomers.

doesn't get any better than that. Oh, and it will take about 6 months for the parasite to die in the tank, eggs and all, without a host.

[jmchzn123]

Originally Posted by tlc2005

Thanks RocDoc!

I feel like giving up but in all honesty I have always wanted a saltwater tank. When I did set this one up, I was not told about the quarantine tank.. heck I wasn't told about anything. They seen the money and took it. I have lost all of my fish now but for three and my yellow tang is not looking very good today.

I was aware that the Tangs get big, my husband and I were going to get a bigger tank when it was needed. I was told by the stores that the smallers ones would be ok in the 55 gallon... I don't know. But an upgrade in the size of the tank was something we were going to do. Thankfully though I didn't jump that gun!

I guess I will just have to see if these three survive and then I will take your advice on the snails and hermit crabs. They were something I wanted to add but the issues that I am having with this tank are driving me crazy!

Thanks!

Yes you are in serious trouble. Too bad many find RC after the fact. ALL your answers are here but you need to operate with the end in mind. FIRST OF ALL DON'T GIVE UP. Reef Keeping or SW is a very rewarding endeavor. However it is an addiction and a passion with serious up and down moments. Rather than give you specific advice which you are getting plenty of I'm going to try and get you focused and off the proverbeal ledge. I'm thinking your fish at this point aren't going to make it. They may but lets start with the single most important thing in any SW endeavor espesially Reef Keeping....drum roll please..........Biology. Husbandry is a sub of that and you must master that to truly be successful. Brings me to the advice you already heard....buy some books and read them cover to cover, then ask intelligent questions here the answers to which will have meaning for you. Decide "what kind of tank" you want to run. Then back into equiptment you will need then and only then plan your stock. Fish Only is a different ballgame. I have yet to meet someone who eventually doesnt get bored and goes reef. Unless you like large agressive fish. So think about the kind of tank you want. Check your bank statement and proceed slowly. Nothing good happens quickly in SW reef or FO.

3 things most agree on is
1) Water Quality- use the absolute best water you can and IMO RO/DI is imperitive not a choice rather a neccessity. period. I don't want to go through the long list of all the impurites in well water, city water AND even NSW depending on where you get it.

2) Skimming - I run a reef so this may not be an issue for some but understanding what exactly skimming is and how it affects water "parameters" leads me to 1 truth...get the biggest and best skimmer you can afford for the size tank you have.

3) Light - If you plan on any coral in general get the best and most light you can afford for your size tank.

Then some Husbandry needs to be mastered. Unlike many I have some fish 10 yrs old. I like my fish and want to replicate their natural enviroment as best I can. TOO many fish is an understatement but also there are WRONG fish plain and simple. Wrong because:
1) The adult size of the fish should be considered. The thought of a Naso in a 55 with other big fish is a mistake because the nature of a fish that grows over a foot long even as a juvi needs room to live stress free because to put it simply...thats who they are.
2) Experience level. Many of the fish you chose are difficult for a newbie because your still learning and water parameters and feeding are still being understood and a fish with certain needs could never be met as they are not understood yet. There is a balance with Bio-load, feeding, Oxygen levels and water parameters. I personally like a lot of fish. I have about 20 in a 90g. Except a Yellow Tang none of them will get more than 4" max. Their care is easy because I have been doing it a long time but in the beginning it was a learning experience for sure.
3) Basic husbandry dictates some fish will kill or harass to death other fish thus should NOT be kept together except in very large tanks and on proper feeding schedules.

4) Water volume is very important when you like fish. Not only swimming room but Oxygen. A sump is a neccessity IMO. Very few can say they have a lot of fish living happy w/o a sump. A sump add vital water volume and mixing of that water creating the gas exchange necessary for the fish to thrive. Forget about coral.

So you see there are a million ways to skin this cat but some basic truths are consistent throughout. Remember these are wild animals who live in the most controlled unforgiving enviroment on earth. Water is the air they breath and we have to do our best to make it perfect. We rarely succeed but get close enough I think to creating a captive reef that will satisfy the needs of the animals as well as our passion for them. See the whole ritual of reef keeping is as important to us as the animals. Folks may deny it but we love the complexities of it all. The incredible detail and technical toys facinate us. We love it all.....in the meantime the failures crush us and success exhilirate us beyond measure. SO DON'T YOU DARE GIVE UP! ONCE YOU GET IT RIGHT THE VICTORY YOU WILL SAVOR AND THE PRIDE YOU WILL HAVE IN A BEAUTIFUL HEALTHY TANK WILL BE REWARD ENOUGH. I say this because when friends come over and look at your tank they say..."oh thats nice". I laugh because they have no idea....but you do...revel in the adventure....WE ALL WANT YOU TO SUCCEED. ...just saying.