How many years have you seen ICH come and go?

[RBU1]

Just curious, because I have a feeling the majority do not QT fish. So I am curious how long has your tank had ich? I assume you see it come and go? If you can answer the poll with how many years your tank has been living with it and then add a comment about what you have done and how often you see it. Hopefully this turns out to be an informative thread.

[billdogg]

I can't really answer your poll. I have not had an ich outbreak in either tank since the early 1990's. 1992 i think, despite 3 cross town moves and several lengthy power outages.

[RBU1]

Originally Posted by billdogg

I can't really answer your poll. I have not had an ich outbreak in either tank since the early 1990's. 1992 i think, despite 3 cross town moves and several lengthy power outages.

Do you QT your fish?

[billdogg]

No. But I am very choosy and purchase from one store only, and only then if it has been in their system for a week or two.

[RBU1]

Here is my reason for starting this thread.

I have torn my 300 gallon tank apart twice over the past 2 years to remove fish and leave the tank fallow. The first time I took it apart, I was told eels can't host ich so I removed everything but the 2 eels. Well after leaving the tank fallow for 10 weeks, I started to add treated fish back to the display, guess what the first tang in got Crypt. Then I started researching the eels again and determined that eels can host ich.....SO tore the tank apart again for a second time to remove the fish and eels this time. Let the tank sit again fallow for 10 weeks. I had my QT up and started adding fish to the main tank that I put thru at least an 8 week QT/Treatment of copper.

To minimize the lenght of this story all seemed good till I added my first tang to the tank 2 weeks ago. He now has crypt....AFTER an 8 week QT period.

So my opinion on the parasite is beggining to change.....I will keep this thread updated, but my hope is that a healthy fish can live with and fight off crypt. But time will tell......If things start to die I will be selling my 300 gallon tank and calling it quits.

[Palting]

I can't answer your poll, either. It seems it excludes people who have had Ich, then treated, never to have Ich again. I've had 2 episodes, treated, QT now, and havent seen it in almost a year.

I suppose this poll would be informative as to how many people live successfully with Ich in the system, and how they do it?

[sslak]

I saw a couple small white spots on my clowns when I moved the tank last April. No new additions at that time...so if Ich was in the tank it had been there for at least a few months prior to the move.

I saw one small spot on the male clown since...never left the tank fallow.

I QT all new purchases and observe, I will treat with prazi for parasites, but i don't like to medicate unless I observe a problem.

My tank is too small for tangs, and I'm not saying what I'm doing is the best way...kinda keeping my fingers crossed and hoping. I'm afraid if I QT all my fish and leave the tank fallow I'll screw something up and lose the fish in the process.

If you have the mean to prevent ich from entering the system in the first place...do so.

[Sk8r]

Well, and the outcome depends a lot on what species you introduce to the tank: the thin-skinned open water swimmers like tangs and angels and rabbits are far more likely to have an infestation than, say, gobies or blennies, and certainly more likely than a dragonet: those that evolved to make a living on the sandbed where the parasite hangs out have some natural defense against it. In our tanks, we settle tangs right near a sandbed, and there you go---instant ich: if there's any, it will find that fish. The thought occurs to me to wonder whether ich is on a timetable once it goes free-swimming, and MUST find an acceptable fish within a certain number of hours before it expires. That's not a fact, understand, just a stray thought. Maybe the ich colony in the sandbed is sending out swimmers daily, looking for the right species in a moment of stress or weakness...you can imagine them in little ninja suits trying to find a chink in somebody's armor. ---Ha! I looked it up, and yes; the little swimmers only survive for 12 hours if they don't find a fish. But meanwhile other trophonts are busy producing more tomites (fish-sucking form of ich)---which will burrow into skin or gills and mature into a trophozoite. Once the trophozoite matures, it makes a cyst on the fish, which bursts, releasing its living part, the trophont, which heads for sand, filter medium, rock, wherever it can find a nest, and settles down to make another cyst (a tomont) and produce 300 more tomites---which again, have 12 hours to find a fish. Unfortunately, the trophonts are quite numerous, and the tomites go exponential very fast.
But I digress...
What skews the whole question is "what kind of fish are you adding?"

[RBU1]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Well, and the outcome depends a lot on what species you introduce to the tank: the thin-skinned open water swimmers like tangs and angels and rabbits are far more likely to have an infestation than, say, gobies or blennies, and certainly more likely than a dragonet: those that evolved to make a living on the sandbed where the parasite hangs out have some natural defense against it. In our tanks, we settle tangs right near a sandbed, and there you go---instant ich: if there's any, it will find that fish. The thought occurs to me to wonder whether ich is on a timetable once it goes free-swimming, and MUST find an acceptable fish within a certain number of hours before it expires. That's not a fact, understand, just a stray thought. Maybe the ich colony in the sandbed is sending out swimmers daily, looking for the right species in a moment of stress or weakness...you can imagine them in little ninja suits trying to find a chink in somebody's armor. ---Ha! I looked it up, and yes; the little swimmers only survive for 12 hours if they don't find a fish. But meanwhile other trophonts are busy producing more tomites (fish-sucking form of ich)---which will burrow into skin or gills and mature into a trophozoite. Once the trophozoite matures, it makes a cyst on the fish, which bursts, releasing its living part, the trophont, which heads for sand, filter medium, rock, wherever it can find a nest, and settles down to make another cyst (a tomont) and produce 300 more tomites---which again, have 12 hours to find a fish. Unfortunately, the trophonts are quite numerous, and the tomites go exponential very fast.
But I digress...
What skews the whole question is "what kind of fish are you adding?"

Not sure I understand the reasoning for your question as it pertains to the thread topic.

I am also curious....If you have a tank loaded with soft corals, mushrooms and anemones....I wonder if its possible for them to consume these fish sucking ninjas....before they get the chance to attack....

[steelerfan1]

hi rbu1,

a newb here still reading about what i will likely have to battle at some point.

it seems like the 2nd time around you did everything correctly as guidelined here at RC.

you took out all hosts and left your DT fish free for 10 weeks, in theory eliminating the parasite because of a lack of a host.

you treated your fish with i'm assuming the proper level of copper for the proper amount of 3 weeks?

so this should mean you are rid of the parasite and good to go.

now here's my question and what i am struggling with now about the QT process.

you said that you QT your new tang for 8 weeks, correct?

now did you treat the tang with copper, or just observe him?

if you just observed him and didn't notice anything wrong with him, i have to asume that indeed a fish just being observed in QT can still indeed have some parasites hidden and be tranfered with it into the main DT and therefore start the nasty cycle again.

the more debates i read, the more i think treating every fish is the way to go here.

again, i am a newb just trying to gather as much info to make a right choice for the marine life i will be responsible to.

[RBU1]

Steelerfan....The last tang was just observed for 8 weeks. He was treated with Prazipro and Kanaplex, but no copper. If I was a betting man I would say crypt made its way to the display on one of my other fish that was treated with copper. I would think that if the tang had crypt it would have been made evident while in the 30 gallon QT for 8 weeks. I could be wrong but I am going with odds here. There is more to learn about this topic I am sure.....But a little discouraged is an understatement. Especially after taking the time to QT everything and treat everything but the tang. My guess is the copper level was off on one of the other treatments. Who knows.....

[cr reef]

Not sure I should post here but;

I was leaving for vacation and noticed that morning that my tang and clown had a bad case of ich, this was 4 years ago. There wasn't anything I could do so left and hoped for the best, came back 11 days later everyone was fine.

This same tang got it again about 2 years ago, again I left it as it was able to fight it off last time, it is still with me and doing well.

I'm probably going to get blasted for this but;

I think there are many times we (myself included) react too fast to things instead of letting nature take it's course.

On that note, if you have a QT tank I would still recommend treating the fish there but there are times I think we overly stress our fish when we QT at the first sign of anything.

Okay you can ignore or yell I have big shoulders

[steelerfan1]

Originally Posted by RBU1

Steelerfan....The last tang was just observed for 8 weeks. He was treated with Prazipro and Kanaplex, but no copper. If I was a betting man I would say crypt made its way to the display on one of my other fish that was treated with copper. I would think that if the tang had crypt it would have been made evident while in the 30 gallon QT for 8 weeks. I could be wrong but I am going with odds here. There is more to learn about this topic I am sure.....But a little discouraged is an understatement. Especially after taking the time to QT everything and treat everything but the tang. My guess is the copper level was off on one of the other treatments. Who knows.....

i can feel your frustration, even just looking at my empty tank bud.

you go through the proper measures to ensure the best and still get a glitch.

i hope you don't pack it in bud and work through it.

did you use cuprimine if you don't mind me asking?

i know from reading that the copper test kits can be off some, but reading the back of my cuprimine bottle it makes it sound pretty easy by just adding 16 drops per 10.5 gallons and repeating again in another 48 hours.

most recomend taking it up slower than that, but even then you i would just assume be sure to put the 32 drops per 10.5 gallons in over a 5 or 6 day period, or whatever you decide.

so i am thinking copper doesn't disolve, like salt meaning the only way it is coming out as when you do water changes.

so if i had a 10 gallon tank and did a 2 gallon water change per week and topping off as well of course wouldn't ijust have to add the amount of copper to make up the 2 gallon ie 3 or so drops?

again just wondering why there are so many issues?

thanks again bud.

[RBU1]

Yes I used cupramine. Good Luck.

[RBU1]

Originally Posted by cr reef

Not sure I should post here but;

I was leaving for vacation and noticed that morning that my tang and clown had a bad case of ich, this was 4 years ago. There wasn't anything I could do so left and hoped for the best, came back 11 days later everyone was fine.

This same tang got it again about 2 years ago, again I left it as it was able to fight it off last time, it is still with me and doing well.

I'm probably going to get blasted for this but;

I think there are many times we (myself included) react too fast to things instead of letting nature take it's course.

On that note, if you have a QT tank I would still recommend treating the fish there but there are times I think we overly stress our fish when we QT at the first sign of anything.

Okay you can ignore or yell I have big shoulders

I think I am going to do nothing....I have been there and done that twice now. With a 300 gallon tank with 400 pounds of rock its not fun....

Nature will be taking its course in my tank. I will continue to QT anything new but if things start to get bad I will pack it in.

[cr reef]

I wish you luck

[gillies]

I'm more interested in all the tank breaking down, setting up, and general worry-induced measures that might be stirring up the system. I'm also always curious about the number and type of fish and when/how they were introduced. All of this leads to stress on the fish. Stressed fish get sick and die. I find Ich threads nearly impossible to help with simply because we don't know you and your habits as an aquarist. Then again, that pretty much goes for most questions on the board. You are better off trying to understand what makes some successful and mirror those habits than get everyone guessing.

[Palting]

Originally Posted by RBU1

Steelerfan....The last tang was just observed for 8 weeks. He was treated with Prazipro and Kanaplex, but no copper. If I was a betting man I would say crypt made its way to the display on one of my other fish that was treated with copper. I would think that if the tang had crypt it would have been made evident while in the 30 gallon QT for 8 weeks. I could be wrong but I am going with odds here. There is more to learn about this topic I am sure.....But a little discouraged is an understatement. Especially after taking the time to QT everything and treat everything but the tang. My guess is the copper level was off on one of the other treatments. Who knows.....

I'm surprised you did not treat the new tang with either hypo or copper while you had it in QT, given your prior experience with 2 attacks. I am sorry about what happened to you, and I didn't want to say anything initially lest I rub salt on wounds. But, in my old tank, I got Ich at least 8 weeks after I introduced the last fish. Meaning, they were all healthy for at least 8 weeks of "observation" in the DT, then they got Ich. That's why my belief now is to QT and treat all new fish with hypo regardless of appearance. It is also my belief, and this is just an opinion offered to maybe help keep you from giving up, that if you had treated the new tang, with copper since you've had the experience, it is likely you would not have gotten this last attack.

There are certainly a lot of anecdotal reports of success of keeping fish despite episodic Ich attacks. I wish you luck if that's where you decide to go, and I hope thispoll helps you.

Hope I'm helping rather than anything else.

[ritter6788]

Originally Posted by RBU1

I am also curious....If you have a tank loaded with soft corals, mushrooms and anemones....I wonder if its possible for them to consume these fish sucking ninjas....before they get the chance to attack....

I have wondered this same thing for a long time. It seems that mature tanks can get an outbreak of ich from new livestock added and with a little time can improve on it's own without breaking down the tank and QT everything. Some fish eat ich like wrasses and so do some shrimp. Couldn't they also be consumed by corals, pods, worms, etc.? I haven't had a serious ich outbreak since my tank was first set up 3 years ago but I have seen it appear in my tank when I added some fish that constantly fought and I ended up losing a few. That was about a year ago and I haven't seen ich since and I didn't do anything to treat the fish.

[Sk8r]

You'd think some might be consumed---but a coral expert informs me they have not found ich in a coral gut (with a microscope, one suspects).

The just 12 hour survival of the swimming form, too, and yet the ability of the parasite to 'lurk' for many months in a tank---might suggest that some stay encysted for an unpredictible length of time, but MUST uncyst within the time we've found adequate---or use up all viability and just die. So perhaps a certain portion of the infestation goes into cysts in the sandbed, the rock, the filter medium, etc, and just parks there for varying lengths of time---but you take all the fish away for 8 weeks and eventually the last encysted, waiting parasite just has to hatch from the cyst and give it a try---and with no fish, 12 hours later, the last little ich parasite runs out of energy and dies.

[RBU1]

Well its a very interesting parasite to say the least.....I am going to let nature take its course and hope for the best. Hopefully between all the corals and healthy atmosphere he can remain healthy and fight off the crypt. I have spoken to a few people and feel a healthy fish should fight it off. My fingers are crossed......

[T Diddy]

of course the other option is to simply have a beautiful 300 gallon reef tank teeming with life and no fish...or just keep inexspensive damsels. I bet $100 worth of damsels would look AWESOME in a 300 gallon reef!

[RBU1]

Not a damsel fan......If crypt wins.....You can buy my 300 gallon reef and put all the damsels you want in it.

[gabew]

I think I heard somewhere that natural sea water has millions of tiny antimicrobial viruses in it and that is why it is fa less common for fish in the ocean to get ich then those it tanks with artificial sea water.

[snorvich]

Since we are discussing . . .
The life cycle of this parasite is interesting and is important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again. What this means is that when your tank is infected, you can actually see symptoms during a very small part of the life cycle, and it why your tank is infected even though your fish are resistant. It will also explain why symptoms come and go.

Many hobbyists are fooled into believing they have cured their fish of the parasites, only to find Ich present again on fish a few weeks later; a reason why following through with a full treatment protocol is so important. Don't make this mistake and be lulled into a false sense of security. The parasites may be in a stage where they are merely regrouping and multiplying for their "next offensive." In the wild, this sort of massive reproductive phase ensures that a few will find a suitable host to continue on the cycle. In the close confines of our aquariums, though, it means comparatively massive infection rates.

This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen often associated with overcrowding, are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of "stress", but it is more appropriate to think of all of these as "unnatural conditions". In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild even more unlikely to be lethal. Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.

By the way, trophonts are under the skin so cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp have no real effect on reducing this parasite.