A crazy thought, need advice

[Panoramix]

I'm considering running a pump from the display tank into the sump rather than a noisy external overflow. I should be able to avoid water level issues or pump failure and flooding issues with 2 float kill switches. Anyone ever do this or can tell me why this would not work? This eliminates noise issues and significant costs as well....

[preef]

I think the pump will simply fill the pipe with water and then it will siphon on its own even if you turn the pump off with a float switch. You might be able to solve that problem with a small hole in the return pipe from the pump above the water line. Unfortunately, the sound of air getting sucked into that pipe when the pump switches off will be louder than your overflow.

Interesting idea though. I wonder if instead of using a pump you can use a solenoid controlled valve in the drain pipe. High and low level float switches in the overflow would open and close the valve.

[dwd5813]

how are you getting water back to the display?

if you are talking about one pump to get water to a sump below the display and another to get it back to the display from underneath, you are headed for trouble imo. first off, you would have to have the flow rates matched exactly, and i don't just mean matching ratings on two separate pumps. you would have to be able to find the exact flow rate coming out of the return from the pump underneath, accounting for head loss and assuming it is 100% constant, no variations due to clogging, etc... and then find a pump that you can also determine the exact flow rate from the display to the sump, again making the same assumptions. IF ALL OF THAT stays constant, ALL THE TIME, then MAYBE you could get away with something like this. one rogue snail or a clog in any of these lines throws security right out the window, and water all over the floor. that's assuming you could get the flow rates matched 100% in the first place, which i think would be harder than it seems.

[dwd5813]

on the other hand, if the sump is above the display and you use a pump to get water to the sump and gravity to get it back to the display (similar to the way most run their systems, just reversed in terms of display vs. sump placement) it should work just fine. not sure where the advantage is though, cost or otherwise.

[preef]

Here's a crazy idea.

What if you didn't even use an overflow? Simply use a single return pump with a high capacity sump. Float switches and a controller would be used to turn on the pump and empty the sump to some minimum level and then turn off the pump. As soon as the pump is turned off water will reverse direction and flow back into the sump until the high water float switch is triggered turning the pump back on.

Your protein skimmer would need to be in a separate chamber and a Maxijet can be used to pump water from the varying water level portion of the sump into the skimmer chamber.

Of course this approach wouldn't work for those that use socks and you would cut your sump turnover roughly in half. The water level in the DT would also move up and down.

For an ATO you would need to include another float switch in the DT. When the sump reached its max or min level you would need to measure the water level of the DT. If its low you would need to add a small amount of water with a dosing pump.

No surface skimmer with this approach. That's a problem.

[preef]

Double post

[Panoramix]

Wow.....nice idea! No overflow at all....I like it! Just a water level switch to activate the return from the sump when level drops in DT. And a kill switch of water too high. I got me some thinkin' to do.

I'm just looking for a way to eliminate an external overflow gurgle without having to drill my tank (which has been setup for a year now)

Thanks again for the help guys!

PS this is probably very newbie of me, but what does IMO mean?

[Panoramix]

dwd5813,

Thanks for the buzzkill, but you are correct. WAY to many things need to go perfect with this double pump idea. Only the return pump with a switch though....potential. Thank again really for your input. Saved me a lot of trouble.

[syrinx]

I have seen many attempts at the pumping water out of the tank concept- it has not worked well-for all the reasons mentioned and more.

[Lukel]

you can drill tanks that are in use... i have done it multiple times.... if it is noise you don't like.... investigate the HERBIE method of overflow..... it is perfectly quiet, and your plumbing won't be an oxygen rich environement for nitrates!!!

Herbie drains are in full siphon so they are extremely quiet and they can keep up with any kind of flow rate!!!

[dwd5813]

imo = in my opinion.

i'm really not trying to be a buzzkill but i'm not really sold on the single pump idea with no overflow. it sounds like you'd still be depending on too many points of potential failure.

can you describe the system you're using now and maybe we can help figure out a good method for quieting it down.

[Panoramix]

I know buzzkilling was not the intent. And I appreciate your input.

Ok, here is my setup.

90 gal not drilled mixed reef (I'll spare details of inhabitants, but relatively well stocked)
Only running live rock, live sand
Filtration is a Rena filstar XP3 canister filter with chemipure as media, and 2 supplemental magnum HOTs running carbon continuously.

I'm getting a 75 gal mixed reef from a friend who is moving. giving it all. This is a hugely heavy stocked tank.

I'm looking to plumb both to a common sump in the basement so water changes and top offs won't become a chore that'll make me dislike the hobby.

My 90 gal is in the family room, right behind the couch, and my wife already finds the noise from the lights annoying. Hence the need for a quiet overflow, or some other way.....thanks again guys!

[snorvich]

Do you have a standpipe installed in your overflow?

[Panoramix]

that's my deal....I don't have any overflow yet. Only using canister filter, LR and LS. I'm realizing I need an external overflow and want to avoid noise or need to drill the tank while it is setup, which makes me want to curl in a corner and suck my thumb. So I'm looking for out of the box options. Thought I had one, still thinking about options.

[preef]

Before I added an overflow and sump to my system I was really worried about the noise too. I looked into Durso and Hofer standpipe designs before I set it all up. It turned out that I worried for nothing. Herbie looks pretty complicated and takes a lot of space with the three different drains. Just a standard standpipe turned out to be pretty darn quiet for me. I just needed to make the standpipe as high as possible. It was much ado about nothing.

Keep it simple and don't worry about it.

[Panoramix]

just curious, what overflow are you using? External, like CPR? or internal with drilled tank?

[preef]

PF-800 Eshopps overflow.
My tank isn't drilled. I use a U tube to siphon water from the surface skimmer section to the hang on the back section.

[Panoramix]

.....and quiet? 'cause if this is reasonably quiet it does seem the simplest way to go by far.

[Panoramix]

Another question: Anybody actually drill a tank while it's running? THAT is a scary proposition to me.

[preef]

I've heard of people drilling their tanks while running. I thought about it but chickened out.

I just went to my take and did a close listen. Here are the noisemakers in my system in order from increasing loudness to decreasing.
1. The fans on my light fixture..
2. Rippling on the surface of my DT from a powerhead.
3. Water falling into the surface skimmer.
4. Water flowing into the overflow drain. This is what the herbie, durso, hofer standpipes are meant to solve.

Yeah I can hear some water but it isn't the flushing loud sound. It's a very quiet background noise.

To be honest sometimes the drain start making noise. I just need to adjust the height of the standpipe when this happens. Only have to do this a few times a year.

I have had bubbles develop in my U siphon tube which slows down the flow. I have never lost siphon or overflowed my tank because of it though. If I was doing a brand new tank I'd probably drill but since my tank was already running I decided against it. I did recently install a float switch in my DT so I can have my controller turn off the pump if the water level gets too high due to failure of the siphon tube.