help floor support?

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 10:41 AM

this is what my neighbor came up with. will it support a 120 gallon tank 48x24x24. also if it will will my laminate flooring hold up under the weight of the tank and stand. thank you in advance for the help and advice.
christine

telaford · 03/27/2011, 10:47 AM

i'm a carpenter by trade, hard to say, would be worried about cinder blocks sinking. I've done it for friends and i dug holes and poured concrete and installed 4*6 beams. Doubling up joist will help, just not sure about sinkage. Laminate floor should be fine, its designed to move, "floating floor", but that small area rest of floor should be able to move enough,,,don't get wet, will swell,,,,good luck

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 10:49 AM

does it make a difference that they are concrete blocks, sorry i should have said that. i was warned ahead of time to not use cinder because its weaker???IDK also its all on concrete this was a converted garage. sorry again for not giving more details my brain is all over the place with this and the pause isn't working.

telaford · 03/27/2011, 10:54 AM

good call, i was refering more to sinkage into crawlspace itself, 8lbs. a gal.

telaford · 03/27/2011, 10:58 AM

does crawlspace stay dry all the time? also the flat pieces of wood that u have in there, including shims, have a compression factor, under load.

Indymann99 · 03/27/2011, 11:02 AM

When using the concrete blocks I believe they need to be oriented with the openings at top and bottom (vs sides) for load bearing applications.

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 11:04 AM

very dry. i dont' understand what you mean by compression. the wood is cut pieces of 2x12 and just regular cedar shims that you get at the HD.

telaford · 03/27/2011, 11:09 AM

i mean the pieces of wood on top of concrete blocks, fibers in wood will compress under load, laying flat. strength is in wood is vertical, not horizontal. actual fibers of wood will compress when laying flat, instead of standing on end. not talking about floor joist.

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 11:14 AM

the wood we used on top of the blocks was the 2x12 cut up. i think its pine

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 11:17 AM

the blocks are mixed up some facing up others on the side. do you think it will collapse like this. i also have 3/4 in red oak to put on top instead of regular ply for the added strength. sorry i'm not replying the right way i think i see how it's done now so i should get it right from now on.

Rich1427 · 03/27/2011, 11:18 AM

stand blocks on end but just double the joist will be plenty

telaford · 03/27/2011, 11:20 AM

right, it will compress, a little. i would be more worried about supports themselves sinking in crawl. is crawlspace p-gravel, dirt, or what?

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 11:21 AM

so you think its ok the 1st and 3rd joist were sistered with one board, the one in the middle that is probaly going to have most of the weight has one on each side for a total of 3 2x10's in the middle.

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 11:22 AM

concrete it was a converted garage. i'm still not replying right how do you guys do this i feel like an idiot.

telaford · 03/27/2011, 11:29 AM

u should be fine, if u have some scrap, u might run a couple sets of 2*12 blocks perpendicular to joist, like a grid

c0nspire · 03/27/2011, 11:31 AM

The amount of compression from a 2x4 (or any 2x material for that matter) on flat is negligable, I wouldnt even consider it. When we frame buildings you lay your double top plate, and single bottom plate in the flat.

i can tell from the picture that you have set up everything on a concrete base, so you dont need to worry so much about sinking, but you need to have the mason blocks laid with the holes facing up/down. they offer little strength when oriented with the holes facing paralell to the level plane.

I would have framed up a bunch of short pony walls, no more than 24" o/c under the joists to carry the load directly to the floor. The walls should run from the top to the bottom based on the orientation of your picture. If for any reason the joist wants to roll you dont want it to roll off your support.

*opinion of a red seal ticketed carpenter*

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telaford

u should be fine, if u have some scrap, u might run a couple sets of 2*12 blocks perpendicular to joist, like a grid

thanks for all the help and look i think i replied right finally. i think i'll break out the new pocket drill thing i bought to do that it will give me a chance to practice before attempting to build the stand and i apologize now for the questions when i start that project.

telaford · 03/27/2011, 11:33 AM

if its concrete, ur all good. thats perfect, run blocks inbetween the joist u put in going opposite direction. think about this,,,for joist to bow or sag, blocks u put in will have to smash and the won't,,,,its all about strengh axis, wood standing on end is stonger that wood layin flat.....put blocks in you'll be fine. Happy tankin

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c0nspire

The amount of compression from a 2x4 (or any 2x material for that matter) on flat is negligable, I wouldnt even consider it. When we frame buildings you lay your double top plate, and single bottom plate in the flat.

i can tell from the picture that you have set up everything on a concrete base, so you dont need to worry so much about sinking, but you need to have the mason blocks laid with the holes facing up/down. they offer little strength when oriented with the holes facing paralell to the level plane.

I would have framed up a bunch of short pony walls, no more than 24" o/c under the joists to carry the load directly to the floor. The walls should run from the top to the bottom based on the orientation of your picture. If for any reason the joist wants to roll you dont want it to roll off your support.

*opinion of a red seal ticketed carpenter*

so you think i should take them out and reposition them and i have no idea what you mean by pony walls and the floor doesn't run even it has a slight angle to it which is why we had a problem with the blocks.

c0nspire · 03/27/2011, 11:43 AM

well you said it was a converted garage right? The garage slab shoudl have at least 1/8" / foot slope on it so water rolls off.

Regardless.

My solution would have been to frame small walls under the joists, fastened at the top (to the joist) and anchored at the bottom (to the concrete). If this route is something you consider, its important to make sure that the studs in the pony wall are directly under each joist, otherwise the load isnt being properly carried to the floor.

What is the clear span of the joists right now? 2x10 or 2x12? what are you sheeting the floor with? 3/4" t&g?

c0nspire · 03/27/2011, 11:50 AM

I can barely tell. In the first picture it looks like the first joist hangs below the bottom plate/concrete, and the second joist doesnt look like its beind held up by anything other than nails, What of the third joist?

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c0nspire

well you said it was a converted garage right? The garage slab shoudl have at least 1/8" / foot slope on it so water rolls off.

Regardless.

My solution would have been to frame small walls under the joists, fastened at the top (to the joist) and anchored at the bottom (to the concrete). If this route is something you consider, its important to make sure that the studs in the pony wall are directly under each joist, otherwise the load isnt being properly carried to the floor.

What is the clear span of the joists right now? 2x10 or 2x12? what are you sheeting the floor with? 3/4" t&g?

the joists are 2x10 and i have 3/4 red oak to go on top.

c0nspire · 03/27/2011, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by looneytunes

the joists are 2x10 and i have 3/4 red oak to go on top.

and you've laminated the joists to 2ply and 3ply where the tank sits. Is the material that you laminated the joists with taller than the material of the original joist? Looks like existing joists where either 2x8 or 2x6.

What I would do is remove the blocks, i dont really trust them, They are designed to be filled with concrete anyways.

Figure out where the tank will sit and mark out the center, and then 6" in from each end of the tank. @ these locations cut 2x10 to fit inbetween the joists and nail or screw them in.

Then directly under these 2 locations at each end of the tank i would build 2 short 2x6 stud walls.

Although this method is not much different from the one you currently have in place it overcomes 2 of the mahor shortcommings you overlooked.
1. By stacking blocks you have created a "knee" joint
2. The blocks are not secured to the floor or the Joist and are "free" to move

looneytunes · 03/27/2011, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c0nspire

I can barely tell. In the first picture it looks like the first joist hangs below the bottom plate/concrete, and the second joist doesnt look like its beind held up by anything other than nails, What of the third joist?

this is the second joist and it had two more 2x10 attached with nails but they are shorter and only span 8ft. the third joist is done the same way the cut a piece and inserted onto the wood on top of the concrete blocks it had one added to the side facing the 2nd. i have no idea how the first joist was put in the one against the wall it may have been nailed it has one attached facing the 2nd joist. the other side utilized hangers?? i think thats what they are called. metal wood goes into it and the metal is nailed into the wood on top of the blocks.

c0nspire · 03/27/2011, 12:14 PM

yes those are called joist hangers

03/27/2011, 11:02 AM	#6
Indymann99 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,447	When using the concrete blocks I believe they need to be oriented with the openings at top and bottom (vs sides) for load bearing applications. __________________ 120g DT 100lbs LR / 200 lbs LS, 45g fuge, VectraM1 Return, Herbie drain, 4x RW-8, 2x AI Hydra 26 w AWM, ASM G2, Apex controller, Apex BoB w floats ATO

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03/27/2011, 10:47 AM	#2
telaford Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 7	i'm a carpenter by trade, hard to say, would be worried about cinder blocks sinking. I've done it for friends and i dug holes and poured concrete and installed 4*6 beams. Doubling up joist will help, just not sure about sinkage. Laminate floor should be fine, its designed to move, "floating floor", but that small area rest of floor should be able to move enough,,,don't get wet, will swell,,,,good luck

03/27/2011, 10:49 AM	#3
looneytunes Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: nj Posts: 224	does it make a difference that they are concrete blocks, sorry i should have said that. i was warned ahead of time to not use cinder because its weaker???IDK also its all on concrete this was a converted garage. sorry again for not giving more details my brain is all over the place with this and the pause isn't working.

03/27/2011, 10:54 AM	#4
telaford Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 7	good call, i was refering more to sinkage into crawlspace itself, 8lbs. a gal.

03/27/2011, 10:58 AM	#5
telaford Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 7	does crawlspace stay dry all the time? also the flat pieces of wood that u have in there, including shims, have a compression factor, under load.

03/27/2011, 11:04 AM	#7
looneytunes Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: nj Posts: 224	very dry. i dont' understand what you mean by compression. the wood is cut pieces of 2x12 and just regular cedar shims that you get at the HD.

03/27/2011, 11:09 AM	#8
telaford Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 7	i mean the pieces of wood on top of concrete blocks, fibers in wood will compress under load, laying flat. strength is in wood is vertical, not horizontal. actual fibers of wood will compress when laying flat, instead of standing on end. not talking about floor joist.

03/27/2011, 11:14 AM	#9
looneytunes Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: nj Posts: 224	the wood we used on top of the blocks was the 2x12 cut up. i think its pine

03/27/2011, 11:17 AM	#10
looneytunes Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: nj Posts: 224	the blocks are mixed up some facing up others on the side. do you think it will collapse like this. i also have 3/4 in red oak to put on top instead of regular ply for the added strength. sorry i'm not replying the right way i think i see how it's done now so i should get it right from now on.

03/27/2011, 11:18 AM	#11
Rich1427 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Annville,Pa Posts: 155	stand blocks on end but just double the joist will be plenty

03/27/2011, 11:20 AM	#12
telaford Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 7	right, it will compress, a little. i would be more worried about supports themselves sinking in crawl. is crawlspace p-gravel, dirt, or what?

03/27/2011, 11:21 AM	#13
looneytunes Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: nj Posts: 224	so you think its ok the 1st and 3rd joist were sistered with one board, the one in the middle that is probaly going to have most of the weight has one on each side for a total of 3 2x10's in the middle.

03/27/2011, 11:22 AM	#14
looneytunes Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: nj Posts: 224	concrete it was a converted garage. i'm still not replying right how do you guys do this i feel like an idiot.

03/27/2011, 11:29 AM	#15
telaford Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 7	u should be fine, if u have some scrap, u might run a couple sets of 2*12 blocks perpendicular to joist, like a grid

03/27/2011, 11:31 AM	#16
c0nspire Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada Posts: 81	The amount of compression from a 2x4 (or any 2x material for that matter) on flat is negligable, I wouldnt even consider it. When we frame buildings you lay your double top plate, and single bottom plate in the flat. i can tell from the picture that you have set up everything on a concrete base, so you dont need to worry so much about sinking, but you need to have the mason blocks laid with the holes facing up/down. they offer little strength when oriented with the holes facing paralell to the level plane. I would have framed up a bunch of short pony walls, no more than 24" o/c under the joists to carry the load directly to the floor. The walls should run from the top to the bottom based on the orientation of your picture. If for any reason the joist wants to roll you dont want it to roll off your support. opinion of a red seal ticketed carpenter

03/27/2011, 11:33 AM	#18
telaford Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 7	if its concrete, ur all good. thats perfect, run blocks inbetween the joist u put in going opposite direction. think about this,,,for joist to bow or sag, blocks u put in will have to smash and the won't,,,,its all about strengh axis, wood standing on end is stonger that wood layin flat.....put blocks in you'll be fine. Happy tankin

03/27/2011, 11:43 AM	#20
c0nspire Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada Posts: 81	well you said it was a converted garage right? The garage slab shoudl have at least 1/8" / foot slope on it so water rolls off. Regardless. My solution would have been to frame small walls under the joists, fastened at the top (to the joist) and anchored at the bottom (to the concrete). If this route is something you consider, its important to make sure that the studs in the pony wall are directly under each joist, otherwise the load isnt being properly carried to the floor. What is the clear span of the joists right now? 2x10 or 2x12? what are you sheeting the floor with? 3/4" t&g?

03/27/2011, 11:50 AM	#21
c0nspire Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada Posts: 81	I can barely tell. In the first picture it looks like the first joist hangs below the bottom plate/concrete, and the second joist doesnt look like its beind held up by anything other than nails, What of the third joist?

03/27/2011, 12:14 PM	#25
c0nspire Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada Posts: 81	yes those are called joist hangers