Do I need a protein skimmer?

[sigshane]

I am just starting up a 37-gallon saltwater system. I plan to add some live rock, but won't get serious about corals/reef until I upgrade my lighting. I will most likely put some cardinals, and a dwarf angel in there to start with.

Do I need a protein skimmer? I know that if I have one, it is a good thing, but do I need one?

Thanks in advance to any responses.

Shane

[bamf25]

Fish produce alot of poop, that is a big portion of what a protien skimmer will remove. Most people here run skimmers on all their tanks. There are other ways to do it including algee scubbers, or just frequent large water changes. Basically you will need a way to get protien out of you water. Skimmers work well for this.

[sigshane]

First off, thanks for your reply.

Now, you stated that people use skimmers, algae scrubbers, or frequent large water changes to remove the fish wastes.

Does that mean that employing a skimmer will make unnecessary the large water changes? If so, that is reason enough to get one!

Shane

[SuperNemo]

If you get a protein skimmer you will be able to go a little longer without a water change but a water change does not just remove poop. It helps to resupply the minerals that are used up. 10-15% is the norm, so i dont consider that a large water change.

As a side note, if you are going wtih a reef, dwarf angels have a high percentage of nipping at corals. So take that into consideration before you get one.

[sigshane]

Yeah, I read that, SuperNemo. I mostly want the live rock as a backdrop, but if it starts to 'bloom', then that would definitely persuade me to find a home for the angel, if I do wind up getting one.

[rysher]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1971908

[snupa]

I have a 38 gallon tank that I've been running now for 3 months and had no problems but I do plan to get a skimmer in the near future just to make my water cleaner. This is not to say my water looks 'dirty' but I know it could be cleaner... you can never do enough for water quality in my opinion.

However, like I said you should be fine if you don't overstock your tank.

[fishboii]

You'll get one eventually.. everyone does..

[sigshane]

Okay, here is one I am looking at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PROTEIN-SKIM...item56430a5cce


I am fairly new in the hobby, and cannot justify $200 for one component of the tank just yet (I am still convincing my wife that $300 is not too much to spend on lights!)

Can anyone give an opinion on this unit, and whether or not it is a waste of money\?

[SuperNemo]

the item does not have a brand name. it almost resembles a seaclone skimmer, which to most people is junk.

i highly doubt that anyone can give you input on that skimmer. might as well make a diy skimmer with a coke bottle and wooden airstone. i have one in my qt tank and only cost me 5 bucks to make.

[Tat2demon]

No way in hell I would buy a skimmer off someone that has a picture of it on a freshwater tank!

[laredo300c]

If anyone would be kind enough to post pics of their skimmer collection cups, that would be reason enough to get one, I'm still amazed every time I clean mine out. To think that crap would be in my tank if it wasn't for my skimmer

[Michael]

Originally Posted by sigshane

I am just starting up a 37-gallon saltwater system. I plan to add some live rock, but won't get serious about corals/reef until I upgrade my lighting. I will most likely put some cardinals, and a dwarf angel in there to start with.

Do I need a protein skimmer? I know that if I have one, it is a good thing, but do I need one?

Thanks in advance to any responses.

Shane

You don't need one, however I know of no winning TOTMs above nano size that doesn't have one, they are essential IMO, I would never consider a reef tank without one.

[karsseboom]

yeah man if you want a healthy tank your gonna want one. water changes wont replace a skimmer unless its a nano tank imo

[pentrix2]

when you do saltwater tanks, the equipment is not the expensive part, it's the livestock. invest what you can afford in equipment because if you don't, you will be paying for it later with your livestock. the essentials would be overflow, sump, protein skimmer, powerheads, heaters, and lighting. everything else is optional.

if it's a new tank setup you don't want to use a protein skimmer for the first month because you will be skimming all of the benefical stuff. i would definitely use it after the first month.

[DownwardDawg]

http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaC_Rem...I-ACRM-vi.html

[jer77]

No, nobody absolutely needs a skimmer. I take care of skimmer less tanks that are able to breed cardinals and perc's. I have to agree a skimmer would ruin their successes. Some sort of nitrate and DOM filter is needed. An algae scrubber in the sump, carbon or a dsb could go some ways to replace the voracity of a skimmer.

[lionfish_shane]

Originally Posted by Tat2demon

No way in hell I would buy a skimmer off someone that has a picture of it on a freshwater tank!

Thinkin the same thing.

I had a seaclone 150 on a 70g tank. I picked it up at petsmart or petco for like $100 or something like that. It worked well for about the 1st year then I could not get or keep it tuned in and I had TONS of microbubbles in my DT. I would not reccommed this skimmer and since I now took it off, I would not even sell it to anyone, but I will do somethin with the maxijet 1200 that was the pump on it.

[pentrix2]

Originally Posted by jer77

No, nobody absolutely needs a skimmer. I take care of skimmer less tanks that are able to breed cardinals and perc's. I have to agree a skimmer would ruin their successes. Some sort of nitrate and DOM filter is needed. An algae scrubber in the sump, carbon or a dsb could go some ways to replace the voracity of a skimmer.

do you have a protein skimmer on your 220g tank?

[DownwardDawg]

I have 2 small tanks. A 30 and a 20. (the 30 is actually a 29 bowfront) The 20 has an Aqua C Remora HOB skimmer. The 29 does not have a skimmer. Both tanks are treated the same...bi-weekly water changes, testing, cleaning, etc... The parameters of each are almost identical. However, the 20 seems much more healthy than the 30. Soft corals spread like crazy and coralline algae growth is better in the 20.

[rysher]

Originally Posted by laredo300c

If anyone would be kind enough to post pics of their skimmer collection cups, that would be reason enough to get one, I'm still amazed every time I clean mine out. To think that crap would be in my tank if it wasn't for my skimmer

Feature Article: Elemental Analysis of Skimmate: What Does a Protein Skimmer Actually Remove from Aquarium Water?

Elemental Analysis Summary

In summary, the skimmer is pulling out a solid, water-insoluble mixture of compounds that consist by weight of (approximately):

* 44 % of CaCO3
* 5% of MgCO3
* 11% of biogenic opal
* 34% of organic material
* 0.5% of phosphate
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

[pentrix2]

i would like to keep the tank as clean and healthy as possible, rather than having just enough for the fish and corals to breath. i don't want to wake up one morning or go home from work to see some or see them slowly dying.

[Korrine]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.php

Skimmer basics 101

So What are We Trying to Remove? Fish poop, of course. Honestly, proteinacious waste only makes up a small portion of what we are trying to eliminate. According to Millero [1], the concentration of proteins found in natural seawater (as amino acids) is about 0.02 to 0.25 ppm (20 to 250 ug/l). These make up 2-3% of the dissolved organic compounds found in our tank water. However, data presented by Shimek [2] in which 23 hobbyist's tanks were surveyed reported protein concentrations of 0.00+ 0.00, suggesting that these tanks were devoid of any detectable proteins. Other organic wastes, which are more readily detectable, are primary and secondary amines, some amino sugars, alcohols, and fatty acids. Lipids (fats) were measured at 1.361 ± 0.940 ppm with a maximum of 3.20 and a minimum of 0.00 in the same study [2]. So, then, what are protein skimmers removing? More importantly, why do we even call this device a "protein skimmer" when there's no protein to remove?
Dissolved Organic Compounds (DOCs) DOCs are the waste molecules skimmers are designed to remove; these are produced as byproducts from the breakdown of biological materials. This pollution arises from not only the deliberate input of foods in our tank but also from decaying organic matter (bacteria, algaes, etc). DOCs are bipolar molecules; these surfactants are attracted to air/water interfaces, i.e., bubbles. A bipolar molecule contains one or more atoms attracted to air, and one or more atoms attracted to water. A skimmer exploits this difference in the following manner:
"As an air bubble moves through the column of organic-laden water, the electrically charged protein molecules (which contain electrically polar and electrically nonpolar regions) are attracted to the air/water interface of the bubble. The polar regions of the molecule (made up of nitrogens, oxygens, etc.) are attracted to the air/water interface and these polar "tails" stick out away from the air bubble into the water column. The nonpolar regions stick out into the air bubble because it does not "like" to be in contact with the polar solvent (i.e. water). If you could look at this bubble under high enough magnification down to the molecular level, the entire air bubble would look like a fuzzy ball with protein tails and other electrically charged tails sticking out from the surface of the air bubble. The polar regions outside of the air bubble stabilize the air bubble very much like a soap bubble in your kitchen sink or your washing machine. This is the reason why foam begins to build up at the surface of the skimmer. As the protein-laden bubble reaches the top of the protein skimmer, the proteins begin to accumulate which creates a stable foam bubble. These stable foam bubbles take a long time to pop. Thus, the proteins slowly are concentrated at the top of the skimmer where they are slowly pushed through the "throat" of the protein skimmer and into the collection cup."
This description, written by Shane Graber, can be found in its entirety here.
The longer that the DOCs are in contact with the bubbles, the more of them will attach to the bubbles, the more of them will be removed. Longer contact times allow for less adherent molecules to be attracted and "stuck" to an air bubble. Other compounds besides DOCs can be removed as well. These may be VOCs (volatile organic compounds), POC (particulate organic compounds), uneaten fish food, trace elements, secondary metabolites from soft corals, bacteria, macro- and micro-planktons, coral eggs and sperm and other similar compounds.

Air driven counter-current (CC) skimmers
Air driven skimmers are the original type of skimmer designed for the home aquarium, and fortunately they are one of the most efficient. However, they also require the most frequent maintenance, and can be costly. These skimmers use wooden air diffusers and a powerful air pump to produce their bubbles. These skimmers have excellent foam volume and consistency when operated with new (unclogged) airstones. According to Theil [4], the minimum recommended height of an air driven CC skimmer is 28", and this skimmer should have two to three air woods (airstones) for every 4" of skimmer width. Therefore, a 6" diameter skimmer should have four to six air woods. Depending on the organic load of the tank, airstones should be replaced monthly to every two months, and air pump diaphragms checked and replaced when weakened. His reasoning for a minimum height of a CC skimmer is due to the fact that the water and air bubbles must interact over a set distance and time, and a skimmer shorter than 28" does not meet these criteria. Long-time hobbyists consider this skimmer type to produce the most consistent quality foam. Interestingly, this skimmer style strictly adheres to our "skimming laws," and when tuned properly it seems to yield the best results. This is a common skimmer for DIY'ers, as this skimmer is easy to construct and requires minimal construction skills.

Venturi skimmers
A venturi skimmer uses a venturi injector to create air bubbles. These skimmers tend to be shorter than air driven CC skimmers, and require a powerful pump to drive the venturi valve. For an explanation of how a venturi valve works, see the explanation box found in this article [5]. One reason why venturi skimmers are often utilized in home aquariums is that venturi valves produce tremendous amounts of bubbles. One of the more common venturi injectors is a Mazzei® injector (image right). When matched with a high performance pump, these injectors create large volumes of fine bubbles. The bubble quality tends to be very good, and this aerated mixture is often injected into a reaction chamber in a swirling fashion to maximize contact times. A 1" Mazzei® injector can pull up to 240cubic ft/hr of air. The Lifereef VS2 is an example of a skimmer which utilizes this injector. Another type of venturi skimmer is a Beckett-head skimmer. The Beckett foam generating spray head is designed for increasing the amount of air that is mixed into the water. Skimmers incorporating a Beckett-head often utilize the Beckett in a higher position than the water level and this extra distance allows for an increase in reaction time. Additionally, manufacturers have begun to tangentially inject aerated water into swirling patterns, which also increases contact time. What is most obvious with a Beckett-head is the density and consistency of the foam; it far exceeds any of the other current aeration strategies. The Precision Marine BulletXL skimmer is an example of one utilizing this injector(image left).

Downdraft™ skimmers
The downdraft™ skimmer is designed quite differently from all other skimmers; it utilizes a jet of water sprayed at high velocity into a column containing bio-balls. This column contains media that effectively disrupts the jet spray and forms bubbles. After the bubbles flow through this "bioball column" they enter a sump box, and are deflected upwards to the foam collection riser in the neck of the skimmer.

In this skimmer configuration, the lengthy water path through the bioball column, across the sump, and up through the neck of the skimmer, effectively increases the reaction time. Additionally, the disruption of the jet spray results in copious amounts of bubbles and foam. These skimmers require a very powerful pump to run correctly, and tend to be fairly large units. A skimmer incorporating this design is the ETSS® Gemini 800.

Aspirating impeller skimmers (Air Shredding)
This style skimmer offers a unique twist on an inexpensive aeration system. Essentially, directing air into the impeller cavity of a powerhead or small pump creates bubbles. The regular impeller (Figure #7b below top), a specialized needle wheel (Figure #7c below left), or pegged wheel (Figure #7d below right) then finely chops up these air bubbles into very fine bubbles like those found in an airstone driven skimmer. These units are unique in that they have a very slow water flow, generate large amounts of foam, and are cheap to run because they use low power pumps. A concern which has arisen with these skimmers is the durability of these specialized impellors. Because these needlewheel impellors place the weight load on the periphery of the impellor (and not close to the central shaft), these impellors have higher failure rates than do normal vaned impellors. Two skimmers that utilize specialized needlewheels are the Turboflotor 1000 and the Euro-Reef. A skimmer that utilizes a traditional impellor in an air shredding strategy is the German Klaes Skimmer, which is reviewed here.


To Summarize the Current Skimmer Types:

Air driven counter-current: low water flow, good foam production (with new air stones), good bubble size, maximum contact times (with taller units), frequent maintenance and requires frequent water height adjustments (called tuning).

Venturi: good water flow, good foam production, moderate contact time, requires a powerful pump, valve tends to clog (Lifereef has a self-cleaning venturi valve).

Beckett-head skimmer: high water flow, maximum bubble production, moderate contact time (swirling patterns will increase this), requires a very powerful pump, Beckett-head requires cleaning.
Downdraft™: good water flow, excellent bubble production, excellent contact time. Units tend to be tall and bulky (the ETSS 1000 is over 60” tall), require powerful pumps to create air bubbles.

Aspirating skimmer: low to moderate water flow, good foam production, good bubble size, excellent contact time, cost-efficient, requires specialized impellor or needlewheel. The needlewheel impellors have been shown to be a weak point.

A few words about maintaining skimmers: to ensure optimal skimming, periodically clean the skimmer. Empty the collection cup frequently, and wipe clean the organic buildup that collects around the body and neck of the skimmer (image left). This organic sludge is what the skimmer removes from the water and this material shouldn't be allowed to fall back into the water. Clean the air valves often, and remove any built-up salt crust or particulate matter clogging the air intake. Also, be aware that small snails and rock fragments may become caught in the restrictions of many venturi valves and pump intakes and must be removed if the skimmer is to perform at peak efficiency. If airstones and an air pump are being used, ensure its bubble production is optimal, replace the airstone at regular monthly or bimonthly intervals and check the air pump diaphragm to ensure maximal air is being produced. Deep skimmers require consistently high pressure from the pump diaphragm to work properly. If the skimmer requires a water pump to generate bubbles, make certain the pump drives the venturi or other air injection device at maximum efficiency; weak pumps cause skimmers to work poorly.
In Summary Protein skimmers can be an effective method in reducing the problems related to waste accumulation in our tanks. The application of skimmers have been associated with reduced waste (reduction of DOCs), reduced algal growth, and increased water quality. Many of the present skimmers on the hobbyist market are too small (height and diameter) and/or underpowered to effectively remove sufficient amounts of organic waste. As a rule of thumb, taller skimmers tend to work better than short, squat ones. The hobbyist needs to ensure bubble production is maximized (smaller bubbles work better than big bubbles), and consequently, the water in the reaction column should be milky white in appearance. The foam produced in the skimmer should be continually moving up towards the collection cup so that is being collected and removed from the system. One final word on skimmate consistency: this topic is often a subject of debate (i.e., thick, mud colored, and dry versus watery and iced-tea colored (image above right)), and it would bear further discussion in another article. I'll leave the topic for now by saying: you want to collect skimmate (any skimmate), and any skimmate is better than no skimmate at all.

[sigshane]

Okay, now I see the point of the ebay skimmer in the freshwater tank - silly that I missed that :-P

I appreciate all of you guys' input. I will go ahead and see what my LFS carries, and see if they will try to sell me the Ferrari of skimmers, or something modestly priced but effective.

I do have many more questions about marine aquariums, but I will search for existing threads/posts before opening new ones.

Y'all rock.

[rysher]

Originally Posted by Korrine

So What are We Trying to Remove? Fish poop, of course. .

arent they zoa roids?