GAC causing Head and lateral line disease in fish??

[cato]

My local reef club held our monthly meeting this past Sunday. During conversation it was mentioned that some recent research is showing a connection between use of granular activated carbon and head and lateral line disease in low mucus producing fish such as tangs.

[salty joe]

Well, that sounds interesting. How about a link?

[dublo8]

Yes it has been known and studies suggest that HLLE can be causes due to carbon fines/particulates in the water column. Ask boomer or highland reefer in the Chem forum about it. Or search for the title "carbon q's". It's an old thread of mine that has a couple article links for you.


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[Nanook]

I have about 1200 gallons of water and for the last three years have used large amounts of GAC changed monthly in an 8x24" media reactor. I have used the BRS lignite carbon with a sponge at the bottom and a sponge at the top. I always rinsed the carbon with large amounts of RODI water(20+ gallons) to get it as clear as possible before putting it in the reactor. The skimmer would quickly show some black carbon dust being collected after changing it out and I kept the carbon tumbling at a low-medium tumble inside the reactor. I have a large sailfin tang, orange shoulder tang, kole tang, yellow tang, tomini tang and foxface rabbitfish, all have moderate HLLE and the only culprit besides captivity that I can identify is the usage of lignite carbon.

I have always fed a combination of fresh nori, NLS pellets, Rod's Food, Prime Reef, Formula I & II, mysis shrimp and some other foods like krill, scallop and table shrimp from time to time. Long story short, my tangs look like I am a bad caretaker in spite of a pretty nutritious diet and proper water care (water changes and NSW parameters that are consistent).

What I have done lately and should have done sooner was switch to Rox .8 carbon as it is very low dust and using it inside the reactor with no tumbling, just flow. I also started feeding the NLS pellets soaked in Selcon. Not sure if the HLLE is reversible, but I am hoping this can stop it before it progresses further. I really like these fish and hope they can get healthier, but not sure.

[syrinx]

I have spent a few years playing with LLE and HIH- which I consider both to be symptoms and not a illness of its own. Whlie I don`t have great experience in creating it, I have had considerable success in curing it. I have read the studies on carbon- and I do think they have some validity. Most of the systems I successfully treated erosive problems were carbon free zones- but not exclusively. I can say the only carbon that i used in my treatmet tanks was chemi pure- and that was only in the 90 gallon tanks I used for holocanthus angels. If it is one of the carbons that is considered to be problomatic- I would look elsewhere for a theory.

[allsps40]

I have been using carbon in a reactor for many years and never had any issues with disease. My skimmer also removes any carbon dust that does not get rinsed out after changing.

[dublo8]

Here is the a post from Boomer in my thread about carbon since I doubt anybody tried to look it up so here ya go.

Originally posted by Boomer.

"Carbon dust and HLLE is not a humor any more. 99% of all HLLE is from a poor diet or to much carbon dust or a combo of the two. However, most HLLE IMHO by far is from poor diet, as we have reversed it many times by changing diet. And only certain fish seem to get HLLE from carbon dust.HM can also cause it.The voltage thing is pretty much a misunderstood myth. And Ozone is antoer possibility. From a past post of mine.



A couple of observations on this complex issue.
We are currently putting the finishing touches on a manuscript describing the dynamics of HLLES in ocean surgeons housed in water polished with carbon. We are aiming for the Journal of Aquatic Animal Health.

• Ed Noga’s group has proposed to talk about a HLLES as a depigmentation clinical sign instead of a syndrome…Corrales, J; Ullal, A; Noga, EJ Lateral line depigmentation (LLD) in channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque). Journal of Fish Diseases. Volume 32 Issue 8, Pages 705 – 712.

• It is important to note there are possibly two phenomenon happening which are being labeled HLLES.

o One phenomenon affects the lateral line which takes two forms.

o One affects the neuromasts within the lateral line-has been documented with heavy metal toxicity.

o One causes an erosive “dermatitis” also known as Chronic Erosive Dermatopathy. We have found this version with the use of activated carbon and ozone.

 Baily, J E, Bretherton, M J, Gavine, FM, Ferguson, HW, and Turnbull, JF. 2005. The pathology of chronic erosive dermatopathy in Murray cod, Maccullochella peelii peelii (Mitchell) Journal of Fish Diseases 2005, 28, 3–12.
 The second phenomenon is known as “epithelial thinning” which is caused by high levels of cortisol…ie stress (multifactorial). Ed Noga’s group describes this in…Udomkusonsri, P., E.J. Noga and N. Monteiro-Riviere. 2004. Pathogenesis of the Acute Ulceration Response (AUR) in hybrid striped bass. Diseases of Aquatic Organisms 61:199-213.

• Telling the difference….
o HLLES-Erosion starts at the pores and increases until they coalesce and the erosions blend to make a bigger ulcer.

o Thinning happens over a larger generalized area. Where the epithelium starts to become transparent and eventually thins to a point where an erosion takes place eventually resulting in an ulcer.

• We don’t know why the epithelial thinning and HLLES has a higher affinity for the facial region. We do know there is a significantly higher population of goblet cells within the facial and lateral line regions of ocean surgeons. We are currently looking at mitochondrial populations of the cells in these regions to see if they have a higher energy need and may be more susceptible to electron disruptions.

• Current controlled experiments using ocean surgeons:
o Coconut carbon has been repeatedly used at different main stream and side stream experiments. It causes very predictable HLLES in full stream as well as side stream which keeps the TOC below 0.5 ppm. Very little HLLES develops in the same side stream experiment where the flow is reduced allowing a 1.0 ppm TOC.
o HLLES develops in fish housed in water exposed to ozone but ORP of the environmental water at around 320 mV (no net oxidants compared to control systems).
o There have been two vitamin deletion studies with controls (Vit A and C) performed by the University of Florida. Vitamin A was negative. Vitamin C was equivocal and needs to be rerun.
o In-line UV did not cause it.
o In-line foam fractionation did not cause it but this experiment needs to be rerun.
o Metals-Application of carbon had no significant manipulation of metal concentration. No significant difference in aquarium tanks that had HLLES verses ones that did not.

HOWEVER…on open question is the speciation of metals available to the fish…One thing in common with ozone and carbon is the manipulation of DOCs. Carbon absorbing it until it the carbon is saturated and ozone chewing it up into smaller molecules. Is it possible that metals may be more toxic in these environment (i.e. toxic enough for these cells but not being overtly toxic) because they are not bound by the DOCs. This is a very complex question and is cost prohibitive to investigate.

• Carbon Dust-Our later carbon studies had 1 micro filters in-line (post carbon). Histopath did not show any carbon particles within the tissues. Another thought is there are plenty of silicates (diatoms) in the water which would be more affective source of irritants. Carbon dust would provide a large surface area for absorption but I am not convinced it acts as and irritant.

• Weight of fish per gallon…a ratio of 2.4 grams of fish/gallon (when the fish reach 30 grams and start to show breeding colors we average 6 fish/75 gallons) seem to keep most of the social stress at bay. We controlled for social structure to make sure this was not causing any HLLES signs.

• Healing of lesions during these experiments…Most of these experiments are a yes/no question. If using controls you can tell if a variable is causing the syndrome early in the HLLES process. At least in ocean surgeons, if you stop the experiment just when you start seeing HLLES and you do not have any complicating issues, the lesions heal fairly quickly so the euthanasia question should be need to be performed.

M. Andrew Stamper D.V.M., Dipl. A.C.Z.M.
Research Biologist/Clinical Veterinarian
Disney's Animal Programs and Environmental Initiatives
Walt Disney World Resorts "

[salty joe]

Thanks for that o8.

Could not find these in the acronyms, so I'm guessing.

HLLE head lateral line erosion
HIH hole in head
LLE lateral line erosion
NLS some brand of pellets

How old is that report?

[syrinx]

Too bad he started with the 99% comment- thats poppycockery.

[Gary Majchrzak]

IME carbon fines (alone) can cause HILLE

don't get caught up in the acronyms

[syrinx]

I agree it can likely be a cause,but I have documentation of many cases where carbon was not used ever, diet was not changed and healing was complete. I still maintain it is a symptom with many causes- known and unknown. Too much "science" these days is trying to prove a hypothosis rather than disprove.

[tkeracer619]

I have a blue tang I have had for over 4 years. It is maybe 3 inches long and has a severe case of hlle. When I got it I had suspicions something was wrong with it. The poor fish hasn't kicked the bucket yet but I feel that it has more to do with how it was caught or quarantined then carbon or food issues. It eats and has a good size belly but.. I am not sure that nutrition is being taken in as it should.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

An additional theory relating to GAC and also ozone is metal toxicity. The above comment about metals not increasing misses the point. Metals do not need to increase to become more toxic. Reduced organics means possibly less organic matter to bind metals, and free metals can be (and frequently are) much more toxic than bound metals. Ozone can make this problem worse by breaking metals free from organics.

I am presently not using ozone, primarily out of this concern. I've also switched from Black Diamond carbon to ROX to see if that makes a difference (from fines, etc).

[syrinx]

In my simplton fashion,20 years ago, I decided that metals were the cause. It just makes sense that the main electrical areas of the fish are what are being affected- and what better than metal to create a "short". Came from ignorance to be sure-but as I continue on in the field, many things still point to this original idea.

[dublo8]

If I can find the articles I will post them. Carbon seems to be the most logical and most common cause that can be recreated equally in most environments. Another possible cause is poor diet and poor water quality, which in a way can be recreated but difficult, if not impossible to recreate the same environment twice. Just to be sure, rinse your carbon and any other chemical filtration media with fresh water until all fines and particulates are gone. There are many carbons out there that are poor quality and due to water movement allowing the carbon to move against each other can release small amounts of fines over time. Use a good quality carbon such as BRS ROX or one of my other favorites is the seachem carbon. Also, the use of a reactor to allow the most flow and dwell time is a great place to start as well. Most reactors have a sponge or strainer to trap fines and particles before re entering the water column.

[syrinx]

"Carbon seems to be the most logical and most common cause that can be recreated equally in most environments"

True- but it also underscores my previous statment on hypothisis.