Base rock + live rock good idea or bad?

Col. Buendia · 04/26/2011, 08:14 PM

Okay quick question.

I'm in the process of setting up a tank. I am considering adding dead base rock, and then adding regular live rock, and maybe even a few pieces of choice premium rock. I spoke to someone recently who thought that the dead dry rock would cycle and kill the live rock. Is this correct? Could I add the two together or should I do one or the other?

Cozmo4 · 04/26/2011, 08:28 PM

No, that's not true. The opposite will happen...the live rock will seed the dead rock. Many people (including me

) do this to start a tank. Add them both together and let it cycle.

Col. Buendia · 04/26/2011, 08:30 PM

thanks for the quick answer. That's what I thought. I guess I should have considered the fact that the guy I was talking to was selling live rock not dead rock.

So you think it's probably ok to buy say 50lbs of base rock, and 50-90lbs of live rock and let it cycle naturally? Any idea on how long that might take?

Jack04 · 04/26/2011, 08:39 PM

I have done this 4 times, works very well.

I usually dose 2 part (b-onic) and have had great success.

But remember that this will require you to stock even slower than normal b/c there is less live rock for biological filtration. It usually takes 4-7 months before I consider my base rock "live" even though you will begin to see some alge growth much sooner but it will have a ways to go to reach live rock level with the life to invade every poor and crevice of the rock. (otherwise my alge magnet and heater could be considered "live" equipment, lol.

This is a much more cost effective method and it helps develop patients.

By the way if you take dry sand and dry rock ( either never having been in the ocean or other body of water) there will be no cycle. This is because a cycle occurs when dead organisms ( alge, critters, sponges, coral) decompose and spike ammonia and initiate the cycle. Adding dry base rock to an established tank will not cause any cycle unless something on the new base rock kills a substantial amount of life on your existing live rock.

So I would suggest using as much base rock as you would like and find a few great pieces of live rock (premium) a hand full or two of live rock rubble (established) andlet er rip.

Also I have switched from using live sand to dead sand and have seen favorable results, it all becomes live from the few pieces of premium rock live rock and rubble.

Jack04 · 04/26/2011, 08:40 PM

I would say if you are looking to put 120 lbs of rock I would use 90 lbs base rock and 30 lbs live.

Col. Buendia · 04/26/2011, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack04

I would say if you are looking to put 120 lbs of rock I would use 90 lbs base rock and 30 lbs live.

that lopsided huh?

schoch79 · 04/26/2011, 10:52 PM

"By the way if you take dry sand and dry rock ( either never having been in the ocean or other body of water) there will be no cycle. This is because a cycle occurs when dead organisms ( alge, critters, sponges, coral) decompose and spike ammonia and initiate the cycle. Adding dry base rock to an established tank will not cause any cycle unless something on the new base rock kills a substantial amount of life on your existing live rock."

True but not true. Hypothetically if you can get ahold of some rock that has never been in any body of water this is true. However, the way the Earth was formed and changed, etc. it has all been in a body of water of some sort. Marco rocks for example is well known for this. Their rock is harvested dry from basically rock farms in the earth, it's mined like many other things are mined. However from what I have heard on this sight people have had big cycles with it and some even complain of smelly cycles. All this is because at some time in the past it did have critters in/on it and that is what is dying off and decomposing/cycling. Granted it all happens in varying degrees in different rocks but it still happens. And by the way, I'm not saying marco rocks is bad rock. Lots of people have used it very successfully and really like it, myself being one of them. Just saying it is something that happens and using them as an example since his rock is so well known in this forum.

Jim.mer · 04/26/2011, 10:55 PM

Why not put cheap base rock on the bottom,I'm doin that with my next set-up, I bought it for a buck a pound.

Col. Buendia · 04/26/2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim.mer

Why not put cheap base rock on the bottom,I'm doin that with my next set-up, I bought it for a buck a pound.

thats the plan chief thats the plan. I'm going to pick some up tomorrow. That's why I needed to get answers to this question ASAP. A guy selling live rock tried to convince me it was a bad idea. He said the NH3, NO2 from the cycling dead rock would kill my any live rock I put in there.

HanoverFist · 04/26/2011, 11:11 PM

A heavy cycle can kill anything still alive on good live rock - that's what he was telling you. If you do use some expensive premium you don't want to put i through a massive ammonia spike. You'll want to do water changes to keep the ammonia low, but present. Better yet, just add the premium stuff after the initial cycle is over.

Read the reefkeeping 101 stickies. Especially the parts on Natural Filtration. You should get a better understanding of the "Nitrogen Cycle" before you get things rolling - or you will regret it.

mike810 · 04/26/2011, 11:20 PM

If I were to start up a tank again, I'd go with all dead rock and seed it with a small piece of live rock. Buying live rock you get all the good live stuff but you also get all the bad stuff that you will have to deal with later on.

spencefe · 04/26/2011, 11:21 PM

No it will not, when your tank starts to cycle the dead rock will soon start to cycle algae and help with your tank.

Col. Buendia · 04/26/2011, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HanoverFist

A heavy cycle can kill anything still alive on good live rock - that's what he was telling you. If you do use some expensive premium you don't want to put i through a massive ammonia spike. You'll want to do water changes to keep the ammonia low, but present. Better yet, just add the premium stuff after the initial cycle is over.

Read the reefkeeping 101 stickies. Especially the parts on Natural Filtration. You should get a better understanding of the "Nitrogen Cycle" before you get things rolling - or you will regret it.

I understand the nitrogen cycle. I've been keeping freshwater tanks for years and I've even grown and studied nitrifying bacteria of different species in a lab environment. I understand how it works. I just don't know that much about live/dead rock and how much nitrogenous waste I can expect from this process. It would seem to me that unless there is a significant amount of organic material on the dead rock, I will still need a source of NH3 in order to keep the cycle moving along. I guess the trick is figuring out a balance between what I need to keep the tank cycling and too much NH3 which will kill the bacteria on the live rock.

thanks for the link. I'll read it.

badvegan · 04/26/2011, 11:53 PM

I personally like using GARF grunge when using base rock. I did 100 lbs of base rock, a sack of GARF grunge and a couple of 6 inch or so rocks from my old aquarium the last time I started a tank. Its been a while since I have started a new tank though so I dont know if they still sell it but I think the grunge ran me $10 or so plus shipping.

HanoverFist · 04/27/2011, 01:14 AM

Oh, you won't kill off any bacteria.

It's any corals and hitchikers on the good live rock that will get nuked. If you don't care about those then just toss it all in the tank and cycle away. Any dead organics on the dry rock will seed the cycle. Adding a pinch of food every few days would be smart too just in case there's not much on the rock to die off. That'll take care of your NH3 requirements.

Polahbear · 04/27/2011, 01:15 AM

Every piece of dry rock is different, I've had some that were very smelly, and others that were not bad at all.
when I set up my 90 I used about 50 pounds of dry rock. and 30 punds of live rock, plus about 30 pounds of rock from my own tank. The guy at the LFS advised me that I should try running the base rock in a tub before putting it straight into my tank. He didn't say it would kill the live rock, but warned me that it could lead to a big algae bloom, so it would be better to get some of the "stuff" out in a dark place before putting it in a lit aquarium. So i set up a big container and filled it with new water and a powerhead. I seeded it with a handful of sand from my established tank. I could not believe the stink, and the amount of debris that came out of the dry rocks.
Now i also had fish to move too so he may have been advising me that way to protect my Fish.

freetareef · 04/27/2011, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozmo4

no, that's not true. The opposite will happen...the live rock will seed the dead rock. Many people (including me

) do this to start a tank. Add them both together and let it cycle.

+1

Apercula · 04/27/2011, 05:57 AM

When I set up my tank I used a 50lb box of Marco rock and a 50lb box of live Fiji rock. I cured them in a 100g rubbermaid tub together for 2 months, then set up my tank.

ken123 · 04/27/2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cozmo4

No, that's not true. The opposite will happen...the live rock will seed the dead rock. Many people (including me

) do this to start a tank. Add them both together and let it cycle.

+1, me too!

Did like 30-40 pounds LR and 50 base rock with Southdown sand when you could get it. Had no bad hitchhikers and have plenty of microorganisms. Always surprised when I found something tiny and new in the rock or sand.

Ryan927 · 04/27/2011, 07:41 AM

Im on my first tank, about 6 months deep, and I honestly cant remember exactly what was base and what was live. Its all purple and growing various forms of algae.

The problem I found was finding quality base rock at my LFS. They would take all the quality stuff and just throw it in the LR tank, or so I suspect. Ive found the term "live rock" can be used loosely. Make sure you get what you're paying for, don't be afraid to haggle on a couple hundred dollars of LR if you're going to the LFS, especially if it just looks like wet base rock.

04/26/2011, 08:14 PM	#1
Col. Buendia Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Takoma Park, MD Posts: 37	Base rock + live rock good idea or bad? Okay quick question. I'm in the process of setting up a tank. I am considering adding dead base rock, and then adding regular live rock, and maybe even a few pieces of choice premium rock. I spoke to someone recently who thought that the dead dry rock would cycle and kill the live rock. Is this correct? Could I add the two together or should I do one or the other?

04/26/2011, 10:52 PM	#7
schoch79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: hegins,pa Posts: 1,071	"By the way if you take dry sand and dry rock ( either never having been in the ocean or other body of water) there will be no cycle. This is because a cycle occurs when dead organisms ( alge, critters, sponges, coral) decompose and spike ammonia and initiate the cycle. Adding dry base rock to an established tank will not cause any cycle unless something on the new base rock kills a substantial amount of life on your existing live rock." True but not true. Hypothetically if you can get ahold of some rock that has never been in any body of water this is true. However, the way the Earth was formed and changed, etc. it has all been in a body of water of some sort. Marco rocks for example is well known for this. Their rock is harvested dry from basically rock farms in the earth, it's mined like many other things are mined. However from what I have heard on this sight people have had big cycles with it and some even complain of smelly cycles. All this is because at some time in the past it did have critters in/on it and that is what is dying off and decomposing/cycling. Granted it all happens in varying degrees in different rocks but it still happens. And by the way, I'm not saying marco rocks is bad rock. Lots of people have used it very successfully and really like it, myself being one of them. Just saying it is something that happens and using them as an example since his rock is so well known in this forum. __________________ We'd better get back, 'cause it'll be dark soon, and they mostly come at night... mostly.

04/26/2011, 10:55 PM	#8
Jim.mer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: North Bay,Ont Posts: 235	Why not put cheap base rock on the bottom,I'm doin that with my next set-up, I bought it for a buck a pound. __________________ JBJ 12 in the works, I said to my self, my self I said, Maybe i'll go LED No my self said No, MH all the way Current Tank Info: 12 jbj settin up soon, no fish, just inverts, hermits,softies,LPS

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04/26/2011, 08:28 PM	#2
Cozmo4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 583	No, that's not true. The opposite will happen...the live rock will seed the dead rock. Many people (including me ) do this to start a tank. Add them both together and let it cycle.

04/26/2011, 08:30 PM	#3
Col. Buendia Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Takoma Park, MD Posts: 37	thanks for the quick answer. That's what I thought. I guess I should have considered the fact that the guy I was talking to was selling live rock not dead rock. So you think it's probably ok to buy say 50lbs of base rock, and 50-90lbs of live rock and let it cycle naturally? Any idea on how long that might take?

04/26/2011, 08:39 PM	#4
Jack04 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 420	I have done this 4 times, works very well. I usually dose 2 part (b-onic) and have had great success. But remember that this will require you to stock even slower than normal b/c there is less live rock for biological filtration. It usually takes 4-7 months before I consider my base rock "live" even though you will begin to see some alge growth much sooner but it will have a ways to go to reach live rock level with the life to invade every poor and crevice of the rock. (otherwise my alge magnet and heater could be considered "live" equipment, lol. This is a much more cost effective method and it helps develop patients. By the way if you take dry sand and dry rock ( either never having been in the ocean or other body of water) there will be no cycle. This is because a cycle occurs when dead organisms ( alge, critters, sponges, coral) decompose and spike ammonia and initiate the cycle. Adding dry base rock to an established tank will not cause any cycle unless something on the new base rock kills a substantial amount of life on your existing live rock. So I would suggest using as much base rock as you would like and find a few great pieces of live rock (premium) a hand full or two of live rock rubble (established) andlet er rip. Also I have switched from using live sand to dead sand and have seen favorable results, it all becomes live from the few pieces of premium rock live rock and rubble.

04/26/2011, 08:40 PM	#5
Jack04 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 420	I would say if you are looking to put 120 lbs of rock I would use 90 lbs base rock and 30 lbs live.

04/26/2011, 11:11 PM	#10
HanoverFist Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Phoenix, Az Posts: 626	A heavy cycle can kill anything still alive on good live rock - that's what he was telling you. If you do use some expensive premium you don't want to put i through a massive ammonia spike. You'll want to do water changes to keep the ammonia low, but present. Better yet, just add the premium stuff after the initial cycle is over. Read the reefkeeping 101 stickies. Especially the parts on Natural Filtration. You should get a better understanding of the "Nitrogen Cycle" before you get things rolling - or you will regret it.

04/26/2011, 11:20 PM	#11
mike810 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Huntington Beach Posts: 2,235	If I were to start up a tank again, I'd go with all dead rock and seed it with a small piece of live rock. Buying live rock you get all the good live stuff but you also get all the bad stuff that you will have to deal with later on.

04/26/2011, 11:21 PM	#12
spencefe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Las Cruces New Mexico Posts: 23	No it will not, when your tank starts to cycle the dead rock will soon start to cycle algae and help with your tank.

04/26/2011, 11:53 PM	#14
badvegan Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 43	I personally like using GARF grunge when using base rock. I did 100 lbs of base rock, a sack of GARF grunge and a couple of 6 inch or so rocks from my old aquarium the last time I started a tank. Its been a while since I have started a new tank though so I dont know if they still sell it but I think the grunge ran me $10 or so plus shipping.

04/27/2011, 01:14 AM	#15
HanoverFist Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Phoenix, Az Posts: 626	Oh, you won't kill off any bacteria. It's any corals and hitchikers on the good live rock that will get nuked. If you don't care about those then just toss it all in the tank and cycle away. Any dead organics on the dry rock will seed the cycle. Adding a pinch of food every few days would be smart too just in case there's not much on the rock to die off. That'll take care of your NH3 requirements.

04/27/2011, 01:15 AM	#16
Polahbear Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Saginaw Michigan Posts: 94	Every piece of dry rock is different, I've had some that were very smelly, and others that were not bad at all. when I set up my 90 I used about 50 pounds of dry rock. and 30 punds of live rock, plus about 30 pounds of rock from my own tank. The guy at the LFS advised me that I should try running the base rock in a tub before putting it straight into my tank. He didn't say it would kill the live rock, but warned me that it could lead to a big algae bloom, so it would be better to get some of the "stuff" out in a dark place before putting it in a lit aquarium. So i set up a big container and filled it with new water and a powerhead. I seeded it with a handful of sand from my established tank. I could not believe the stink, and the amount of debris that came out of the dry rocks. Now i also had fish to move too so he may have been advising me that way to protect my Fish.

04/27/2011, 05:57 AM	#18
Apercula Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 707	When I set up my tank I used a 50lb box of Marco rock and a 50lb box of live Fiji rock. I cured them in a 100g rubbermaid tub together for 2 months, then set up my tank.

04/27/2011, 07:41 AM	#20
Ryan927 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 55	Im on my first tank, about 6 months deep, and I honestly cant remember exactly what was base and what was live. Its all purple and growing various forms of algae. The problem I found was finding quality base rock at my LFS. They would take all the quality stuff and just throw it in the LR tank, or so I suspect. Ive found the term "live rock" can be used loosely. Make sure you get what you're paying for, don't be afraid to haggle on a couple hundred dollars of LR if you're going to the LFS, especially if it just looks like wet base rock.