ATO Pump Recommendations

Rxfoote · 07/20/2011, 09:00 PM

I have ATO setup in the basement with kalk/vinegar from RO. Now I am setting up line from Kalk up to the tank. I need to get about 6' head up and about 25' across. What recommendations for a pump to do this to a float valve in the sump? I had a few spare pumps around I tried for kicks tonight, a Rio800, and a MaxiJet700 - neither had enough head power. Thanks!

SoCalBoo · 07/20/2011, 11:27 PM

Yeah, I don't think any maxi-jet will have enough to pump that height. A 1200 pro would just make it, but not reliably.

I would look to a mag 3 or quiet one 1200 or 3000. probably tons of other pumps that would work.

Make sure you use a siphon break.

Rxfoote · 07/21/2011, 05:50 AM

Thanks! Probably silly, just wondering if a larger pump be ok running 24x7 with the outlet being stopped by a float valve? I have 3/8" line running up from the basement to the sump. For a siphon break, would I just drill a couple of small holes in the top? I assume this is preferred over a check valve? Thanks!

SoCalBoo · 07/21/2011, 08:23 AM

Ah, I thought you were talking about float switches.

A good float valve can take 80-100psi constant. I seriously doubt that a smallish pump like we are talking about will get anything close to that. But they do fail, so I understand why you are asking. I also wonder about premature failure for the pump with it encountering no flow most of the time.

If it were me, I would grab a sump based double switch kit like this:

http://autotopoff.com/products/DS1/

And run an aqualifter pump off of it. But you can run any pump off it - it is rated to more than 1200 watts for a pump.

If you are adamant about running with your float valve set up, I would put the pump on a timer. Turn off the pump for a day. Then plug back in and time how long it takes to fill up to the float valve. Put the timer on for just a bit longer than that time, once per day. That way, if your float valve fails, you won't overflow the tank for many days, and hopefully catch the slightly raised water level before it overflows. This would also prolong the life of your float valve, as it will go on/off only rarely more than once per day, instead of cycling on/off many times per day.

I am not sure how you would run a siphon break, though. If you pierce the line anywhere between the reservoir and the float valve, you will get leaking when the valve is off and the pump is on. If you pierce down by the reservoir, it will still flow backwards. If you run with dual float switches like a recommend above (and ditch the float valve), then all you need to do is have the outlet tube above the water level in your sump, and no siphon will occur.

Not a fan of check valves - they are very prone to failure, especially the cheap ones that you might find at hardware stores, even more so with kalk which has a precipitate that can accelerate fouling (and subsequent failure) of the valve. The better ones (IMHO) use springs, so you have to find stainless steel or they will rust. I have always found it just easier to plan without one, so I am not caught relying on one (and then having it fail). Again, just my opinion and others like them.

Rxfoote · 07/21/2011, 10:18 AM

Thanks, I'll likely look at the electronic switch. If I go the other route that would kind of defeat the purpose of having a constant slow addition of kalk/vinegar. I don't think a aqualifter is going to push that far though...?

LouH · 07/21/2011, 01:11 PM

Most all peristalic pumps will give you what you need as long as your evaporative loss does not exceed the pump's capabilities. You can get a complete setup for under $200.

SoCalBoo · 07/21/2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rxfoote

Thanks, I'll likely look at the electronic switch. If I go the other route that would kind of defeat the purpose of having a constant slow addition of kalk/vinegar. I don't think a aqualifter is going to push that far though...?

Didn't know you wanted "constant slow addition".

Periastalic pump would be best as mentioned, but I wouldn't use it against a float valve. I suspect you will burn out the pump pretty fast. You can put the pump on an electronic timer such that it works many times throughout the day, but this is dangerous because it isn't linked to the water level in your sump. Although it would take many days, failure off or failure on will eventually occur.

Probably your best best is a periastalic pump combined with dual float sensors. When the lower sensor senses the water level in the sump is too low, it turns a relay on which turns the periastalic pump on. When the lower sensor senses the water level has been raised to acceptable level, it turns the pump off. The upper sensor is there as a back up in case the lower sensor fails. If the water level hits the upper sensor and the the pump is still on, it shuts if off. You don't need a controller or timer for this set up.

I would use the autotopoff.com link I already gave you, and the fast BRS periastalic pump:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...er-minute.html

don't use a slow periastalic pump, like those with 1.1 or 1.5ml/min., as they are not intended for use with top off.

Rxfoote · 07/21/2011, 03:28 PM

Thanks for the replies! Is my assumption wrong with an ATO with Kalk/Vinegar, won't I be best at adding it at evaporation rate during the day rather than once? Thanks!

SoCalBoo · 07/21/2011, 10:49 PM

Well, I know folks that do both. The fear is that adding kalk too quickly will change water chemistry too rapidly. But people manually dose kalk or 2 part once per week, which (theoretically) would be 7 times more potent - and do so regularly without issue. Unless your kalk demand is steep, I think once per day is fine. Whiche leads me too...

Personally, I have never been a fan of kalk in ATO water combo. While Kalk does have a pretty wide berth for dosing, how can you get the right kalk/H2O levels so that you aren't over dosing or under dosing? I have always proceeded with doing them separate for that reason.

If I was in your situation, and wanting to use kalk, I would do this: create a periastalic pump dosing kalk on a timer. I would then get an upper/lower float switch that powers a powerhead/small pump capable of handing the resistance of your run, and run that on a timer as well. Let's add this up - $80 for periastalic, $8 for timer; upper/lower float switches with relay and cords $60; mag 3 or similar $30; timer $8. $186. A fair amount of money, but I think worth it. Next step up might be entry level controller like a Reef Keeper Lite or Apex, which can take over the timer functions, as well as the switching.

I hope others respond. Some folks will have different takes than I do, which is good for you to hear.

LouH · 07/22/2011, 08:40 AM

You do have the option of using a programmable peristalic pump for ATO. I own this pump and used it for over 5 years before the motor gave out:

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewit...content=IA1111

I replaced that unit with this one: http://www.aquacave.com/ghl-profilux...ller-3023.html

Setting them up is no different than setting up a calcium reactor, and you don't have to worry about float switch failure.

07/20/2011, 09:00 PM	#1
Rxfoote Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 159	ATO Pump Recommendations I have ATO setup in the basement with kalk/vinegar from RO. Now I am setting up line from Kalk up to the tank. I need to get about 6' head up and about 25' across. What recommendations for a pump to do this to a float valve in the sump? I had a few spare pumps around I tried for kicks tonight, a Rio800, and a MaxiJet700 - neither had enough head power. Thanks!

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07/20/2011, 11:27 PM	#2
SoCalBoo Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47	Yeah, I don't think any maxi-jet will have enough to pump that height. A 1200 pro would just make it, but not reliably. I would look to a mag 3 or quiet one 1200 or 3000. probably tons of other pumps that would work. Make sure you use a siphon break.

07/21/2011, 05:50 AM	#3
Rxfoote Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 159	Thanks! Probably silly, just wondering if a larger pump be ok running 24x7 with the outlet being stopped by a float valve? I have 3/8" line running up from the basement to the sump. For a siphon break, would I just drill a couple of small holes in the top? I assume this is preferred over a check valve? Thanks!

07/21/2011, 08:23 AM	#4
SoCalBoo Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47	Ah, I thought you were talking about float switches. A good float valve can take 80-100psi constant. I seriously doubt that a smallish pump like we are talking about will get anything close to that. But they do fail, so I understand why you are asking. I also wonder about premature failure for the pump with it encountering no flow most of the time. If it were me, I would grab a sump based double switch kit like this: http://autotopoff.com/products/DS1/ And run an aqualifter pump off of it. But you can run any pump off it - it is rated to more than 1200 watts for a pump. If you are adamant about running with your float valve set up, I would put the pump on a timer. Turn off the pump for a day. Then plug back in and time how long it takes to fill up to the float valve. Put the timer on for just a bit longer than that time, once per day. That way, if your float valve fails, you won't overflow the tank for many days, and hopefully catch the slightly raised water level before it overflows. This would also prolong the life of your float valve, as it will go on/off only rarely more than once per day, instead of cycling on/off many times per day. I am not sure how you would run a siphon break, though. If you pierce the line anywhere between the reservoir and the float valve, you will get leaking when the valve is off and the pump is on. If you pierce down by the reservoir, it will still flow backwards. If you run with dual float switches like a recommend above (and ditch the float valve), then all you need to do is have the outlet tube above the water level in your sump, and no siphon will occur. Not a fan of check valves - they are very prone to failure, especially the cheap ones that you might find at hardware stores, even more so with kalk which has a precipitate that can accelerate fouling (and subsequent failure) of the valve. The better ones (IMHO) use springs, so you have to find stainless steel or they will rust. I have always found it just easier to plan without one, so I am not caught relying on one (and then having it fail). Again, just my opinion and others like them.

07/21/2011, 10:18 AM	#5
Rxfoote Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 159	Thanks, I'll likely look at the electronic switch. If I go the other route that would kind of defeat the purpose of having a constant slow addition of kalk/vinegar. I don't think a aqualifter is going to push that far though...?

07/21/2011, 01:11 PM	#6
LouH LouH Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 681	Most all peristalic pumps will give you what you need as long as your evaporative loss does not exceed the pump's capabilities. You can get a complete setup for under $200.

07/21/2011, 03:28 PM	#8
Rxfoote Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 159	Thanks for the replies! Is my assumption wrong with an ATO with Kalk/Vinegar, won't I be best at adding it at evaporation rate during the day rather than once? Thanks!

07/21/2011, 10:49 PM	#9
SoCalBoo Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47	Well, I know folks that do both. The fear is that adding kalk too quickly will change water chemistry too rapidly. But people manually dose kalk or 2 part once per week, which (theoretically) would be 7 times more potent - and do so regularly without issue. Unless your kalk demand is steep, I think once per day is fine. Whiche leads me too... Personally, I have never been a fan of kalk in ATO water combo. While Kalk does have a pretty wide berth for dosing, how can you get the right kalk/H2O levels so that you aren't over dosing or under dosing? I have always proceeded with doing them separate for that reason. If I was in your situation, and wanting to use kalk, I would do this: create a periastalic pump dosing kalk on a timer. I would then get an upper/lower float switch that powers a powerhead/small pump capable of handing the resistance of your run, and run that on a timer as well. Let's add this up - $80 for periastalic, $8 for timer; upper/lower float switches with relay and cords $60; mag 3 or similar $30; timer $8. $186. A fair amount of money, but I think worth it. Next step up might be entry level controller like a Reef Keeper Lite or Apex, which can take over the timer functions, as well as the switching. I hope others respond. Some folks will have different takes than I do, which is good for you to hear.

07/22/2011, 08:40 AM	#10
LouH LouH Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 681	You do have the option of using a programmable peristalic pump for ATO. I own this pump and used it for over 5 years before the motor gave out: http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewit...content=IA1111 I replaced that unit with this one: http://www.aquacave.com/ghl-profilux...ller-3023.html Setting them up is no different than setting up a calcium reactor, and you don't have to worry about float switch failure.