EchoTech Radion LED salt ingestion?

[Cheebs]

I know there is another thread going aobut this light vs another, but I thought I'd post a specific question aobut it.

With an intake fan sucking air form the bottom (unless I've been misinformed about it), what long term effect would the sucking in of salt and moisture do to the fixture? I don't keep my T5s too close to the water, but I still have to clean them once and a while from the salt and moisture that gets up there. If this fixture has a fan hoovering air up into it, is that a bad thing? Or does the air that is sucked in only come into contact with the heat syncs and not the electrical components directly?

Thoughts? I ask because I am on the verge of buying and LED fixture and I am very interested in this one, but skeptical about certian things without seeing any long-term use.

[Eurobeaner]

Salt......... Does....... Not...... Evaporate. I think everyone misses this point! Why do you think you topoff with ro/di an not saltwater?

Now, random splashes could get up there, but typically, led's are hung higher than everything else so it shouldn't be a problem

[rtparty]

While some salt and water will come in contact with the fixture, I highly doubt anyone will ever see any problems. Unless they keep the fixture like 4" off the water. I don't recommend any fixture be kept that close. Not even ATI T5's with their splash shield.

All of the electrical components found inside the Radion LED are isolated and never will come in contact with the moving air. The fan pulls in cool air and cools the heat sinks ONLY. The heat sinks pull all the heat away from the electrical components fond inside.

Ecotech has assured they did plenty of research on this topic and that the humidity above the fixture is the same as the humidity right below.

[rishma]

This is actually a very good question. While salt does not evaporate, salt does manage to get airborn. This is seen by many people who have salt spray and corrosion on lighting, reflectors, etc that hang above the tank. The corrosion people experience in fish rooms and under closed cabinets is not simply due to humidity.

The salt mist may get airborn by the rupture of tiny bubbles or some other surface action, but it certainly happens. I would be interested to hear Ecotech's comment on any concerns with corrosion or fouling of the light's heat sinks.

[pmrossetti]

Originally Posted by rishma

This is actually a very good question. While salt does not evaporate, salt does manage to get airborn. This is seen by many people who have salt spray and corrosion on lighting, reflectors, etc that hang above the tank. The corrosion people experience in fish rooms and under closed cabinets is not simply due to humidity.

The salt mist may get airborn by the rupture of tiny bubbles or some other surface action, but it certainly happens. I would be interested to hear Ecotech's comment on any concerns with corrosion or fouling of the light's heat sinks.

+1

my ? too. also will it withstand the occasional splash?

Ecotech says if you raise the unit more than 8" par is less than 250w mh. so you really can't do that. or cover the tank either.

they should have been like AI and been like 400w mh, so you could raise them higher and still get good par, or cover the tank.

ps---and their mounting options are non existant at this point.
good spectrum though

[ganjero]

Originally Posted by Eurobeaner

Salt......... Does....... Not...... Evaporate. I think everyone misses this point! Why do you think you topoff with ro/di an not saltwater?

Now, random splashes could get up there, but typically, led's are hung higher than everything else so it shouldn't be a problem

It does not evaporate but that doesnt mean is not in the air. You do get particles in the air that will corrode certain parts of the fans overtime. According to Ecotech the fans blow into a "cooling' channel that is completely separated from the other electrical parts inside the fixture, which means you should not get salt pushed into more sensitive parts of the light. It seems the fans will be blowing directly on the heatsink only.

You will see corrosion and probably need to replace the fans at some point like many other fixtures.

[ganjero]

Originally Posted by rishma

I would be interested to hear Ecotech's comment on any concerns with corrosion or fouling of the light's heat sinks.

The heatsink should be made of aluminum and it will corrode. Aluminum corrosion is different than iron and steel rust, it actually looks almost like aluminum and it will protect from further corrosion. Ecotech is probably using a protective coat where the heatsink is exposed to the air.

[rishma]

corrosion of Al exposed to salt spray is not going to provide a uniform protective oxide. You will see pitting.

Provided the thermal resistance of a protective coating is accounted for, this would be a reasonable way to mitigate corrosion of the heat sink.

If the cooling channel is easily accessible for cleaning, this could be a addressed with occassional maintenance.

[Cheebs]

Originally Posted by Eurobeaner

Salt......... Does....... Not...... Evaporate. I think everyone misses this point! Why do you think you topoff with ro/di an not saltwater?

Now, random splashes could get up there, but typically, led's are hung higher than everything else so it shouldn't be a problem

Thanks for the basic evaporation lesson 101, but clearly salt does not evaporate, and there is no point being missed here, nor does this factor into my question. Salt gets places. You see alt creep in different areas, and with decent surface circulation, which is especially needed in a system without an overflow, some "salty" miniature droplets do get airborne. You can see this if you put a glass top on most aquariums. Within a few days the glass has tons of salt residue on it.

So my worry was that with a fan actually SUCKING air upwards, that said water particles could get in there, even if it's several inches above the water. If no actual damageable components are within the fans reach, then that's fine, and it can be cleanes out or whatever. I imagine that they thought of this, but I am just curious, that's all.

[Gorgok]

Think of it this way. How high up is the fan with the fixture at roughly 6"? Probably 7-8" right? To the bottom of it. How thick is a fan? Probably no more than 3/4". Whether its pulling air from above (roughly 7 3/4" high) or below (7" high) makes little difference in the long run.

Depending on how long the channel in the fixture is to get air from the openings, past the (hot) fins, to the fan bottom it may be much longer a distance and harder a journey for salt to get to the fan itself. Sure you may need to clean the heat sinks a little more often (hot fins evaporate water, leave the salt spray on them) but even then a pushing fan will put the same salty spray on the same fins at roughly the same speed.

A pulling fan is simply more efficient as a design, i wouldn't have it any other way. (On a heat sink anyway.)

[solitude127]

Can someone help me better understand why we need and ATO if salt does not evaporate? I know some end up in the skimmer collection cup but not the rate my ATO reservoir needs to be filled.

[mikejrice]

I can't say for sure what their angle is, but I did overhear something at MACNA about a special coating on the EcoTech fan and possible fixture internals. I think they probably have a little more up their sleeve on this one than we think, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't miss a detail that can be picked out just by seeing a photo of the light.

[scarface70706]

when evaporation happens with salt water; the water evaporates while most of the salt stays behind which increases your salinity in your tank. its best to have a ATO with ro/di water to keep your salinity from fluctuating. some people make the common mistake as well as my self when i was 17 and toping off with salt water which makes your salinity sky rocket.

[Bellagio]

Originally Posted by pmrossetti

+1

my ? too. also will it withstand the occasional splash?

Ecotech says if you raise the unit more than 8" par is less than 250w mh. so you really can't do that. or cover the tank either.

they should have been like AI and been like 400w mh, so you could raise them higher and still get good par, or cover the tank.

ps---and their mounting options are non existant at this point.
good spectrum though

Exactly!
Can you tell me - their PAR readings - was taken:
a) in the air
b) in the water
What distance there was between PAR meter and lamp?
Why this important information arent exposed?

And Im sorry - I dont believe(it impossible) that their unit, hanged 8" above water offer the same PAR like 250 metal halide(which bulb? 10KK,14KK,20KK?how high hanged above water surface??
I cant find this information - so I will be glad for any additional info about source of that informations..

[MedRed]

Ecotech says that they tested the fixtures in overly harsh conditions and did not find issues. Personally, I don't think it will be an issue. The fan and the heatsink are separate from the other electrical components. I'd be more concerned with salt getting on the lenses and ruining the optics.

[Cheebs]

Thanks for the link Mike. I do trust that the company has made a soldi, viable fixture, and they do have fantastic service. I've got a couple months before I make my purchase, but I may in fact decide to go for this fixture. I know there will be a few guinea pigs that test it out before me

[WingoLED]

Originally Posted by mikejrice

Couldn't resist this hot topic any longer.

http://marine-engineers.org/2011/09/...ling-explored/

Thanks for the the link but it does not show anything other than an SUBJECTIVE view in the article. No data of any kind is there except Ecotech has excellent service records which I agree.

To end the debate, it's very easy: Ecotech can provide some data such as what type of fan they are using, water tight or not(many blowers in aquaculture industry uses water tight fans), or an actual test result of the unit running for 6 months or so.... The release of these information is much more effective than our own guesses.

[SkullV]

Originally Posted by Bellagio

Exactly!
Can you tell me - their PAR readings - was taken:
a) in the air
b) in the water
What distance there was between PAR meter and lamp?
Why this important information arent exposed?

And Im sorry - I dont believe(it impossible) that their unit, hanged 8" above water offer the same PAR like 250 metal halide(which bulb? 10KK,14KK,20KK?how high hanged above water surface??
I cant find this information - so I will be glad for any additional info about source of that informations..

I have noticed that you have quite a negative view of the Radion LED, most of your comments since joining this site are negative and directed towards Ecotech and their fixture. Can you explain some of your credentials as to why you you are more qualified than the engineers at Ecotech in the design and recommended use of an LED product?

[MedRed]

Originally Posted by Bellagio

Exactly!
Can you tell me - their PAR readings - was taken:
a) in the air
b) in the water
What distance there was between PAR meter and lamp?
Why this important information arent exposed?

And Im sorry - I dont believe(it impossible) that their unit, hanged 8" above water offer the same PAR like 250 metal halide(which bulb? 10KK,14KK,20KK?how high hanged above water surface??
I cant find this information - so I will be glad for any additional info about source of that informations..

If Aqua Illumination SOL compares its fixture to a 250w metal halide and we've seen the data to back it up, could the optics on the Radion be that bad that it can't duplicate the same while utilizing 2 more whites (overdriven), 2 more blues, 4 more royal blues, and being almost double the wattage? Seriously

[pmrossetti]

i believe it is = to a 250w mh. mrsaltwatertank showed that. and it is a good product. i was just concerned that a splash could damage this 800dollar fixture.

i have had mh burst from a splash at about 9" awl. so of course i know it happens. if ecotech says a splash is no prob ok. do they?

[mikejrice]

Originally Posted by pmrossetti

i believe it is = to a 250w mh. mrsaltwatertank showed that. and it is a good product. i was just concerned that a splash could damage this 800dollar fixture.

i have had mh burst from a splash at about 9" awl. so of course i know it happens. if ecotech says a splash is no prob ok. do they?

EcoTech didn't give me details on the fan yet, but they did tell me directly that splashing and moister won't be a problem for the light.

[pmrossetti]

Originally Posted by mikejrice

EcoTech didn't give me details on the fan yet, but they did tell me directly that splashing and moister won't be a problem for the light.

that's great to hear. we can just judge on the merits then.thanks for the info.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

This issue is a legitimate concern. Most of us experience some degree of salt spray from our tanks, particularly if you use a lot of flow near the surface of the tank. While this tends to be little more than a nuisance in many cases, I cannot think of an instance where you have a fan that is actually actively sucking air directly from the surface of the tank. Maybe this won't be a problem for most people who plan to keep their Radion fairly high above the water. However, these lights apparently are actually designed/intended to be placed closer to the water.

From the Advanced Aquarist Preview:
"The large parabolic reflectors help to focus the total light output over the intended coverage area. As a result, the Radions can be mounted closer to the water surface (if desired) compared to other LED lights."

For those of us that might want to place it closer to the water, I think we might experience some issues with salt buildup, even if the fan is made of corrosion-resistant materials.

Also, in regards to the comments about how excellent Ecotech is with engineering and design, even the best engineering teams can overlook things (ahem, NASA). Besides, it is hardly a good argument against a reasonable concern to say "well, they're a company with such a good track record, so I can't see anything going wrong."

[pmrossetti]

Originally Posted by aninjaatemyshoe

This issue is a legitimate concern. Most of us experience some degree of salt spray from our tanks, particularly if you use a lot of flow near the surface of the tank. While this tends to be little more than a nuisance in many cases, I cannot think of an instance where you have a fan that is actually actively sucking air directly from the surface of the tank. Maybe this won't be a problem for most people who plan to keep their Radion fairly high above the water. However, these lights apparently are actually designed/intended to be placed closer to the water.

From the Advanced Aquarist Preview:
"The large parabolic reflectors help to focus the total light output over the intended coverage area. As a result, the Radions can be mounted closer to the water surface (if desired) compared to other LED lights."

For those of us that might want to place it closer to the water, I think we might experience some issues with salt buildup, even if the fan is made of corrosion-resistant materials.

Also, in regards to the comments about how excellent Ecotech is with engineering and design, even the best engineering teams can overlook things (ahem, NASA). Besides, it is hardly a good argument against a reasonable concern to say "well, they're a company with such a good track record, so I can't see anything going wrong."

thanks a, more articulate than me.

[MedRed]

Originally Posted by aninjaatemyshoe

This issue is a legitimate concern. Most of us experience some degree of salt spray from our tanks, particularly if you use a lot of flow near the surface of the tank. While this tends to be little more than a nuisance in many cases, I cannot think of an instance where you have a fan that is actually actively sucking air directly from the surface of the tank. Maybe this won't be a problem for most people who plan to keep their Radion fairly high above the water. However, these lights apparently are actually designed/intended to be placed closer to the water.

From the Advanced Aquarist Preview:
"The large parabolic reflectors help to focus the total light output over the intended coverage area. As a result, the Radions can be mounted closer to the water surface (if desired) compared to other LED lights."

For those of us that might want to place it closer to the water, I think we might experience some issues with salt buildup, even if the fan is made of corrosion-resistant materials.

Also, in regards to the comments about how excellent Ecotech is with engineering and design, even the best engineering teams can overlook things (ahem, NASA). Besides, it is hardly a good argument against a reasonable concern to say "well, they're a company with such a good track record, so I can't see anything going wrong."

The LED and electronics are still sealed away from the fan intake and the heatsinks. Even if salt were to end up in the fan, it'd be easy to clean. It's not like it will be in there ruining the electronics.