Starting Red Sea NO3-PO4 X...Anyone else use it?

[89Foxbody]

I started my first dose of this stuff today. I have been reading reviews and it is generally reviewed very well and seems to be a legit product. I am incredibly tired of the hair algae in my tank, and I am hoping this stuff will help. I stopped running GFO as recommended in the mean time. Does anyone else have any experience with this product?

[pciscott]

I am one week in and see the hair algae turning brown and receding. I am also using reef energy A and B as recomended. I am still running GFO as well. Nitrate went from 5 to 2 in the week and p04 from .04 to .02 colors look good and reef energy makes polyps extend more. I had a great talk with Red Sea at Macna and they had a great pitch on how this product works. I have biopellets on my other tank and still run GFO on that system as well to get my p04 below .03. Good luck and I will keep you posted I am giving this a solid try over the next 50 days and will let you know if I plan to replenish after my first 3 bottles run out.

[89Foxbody]

The directions recommend discontinuing using any other phosphate removers, no?

Also, I didn't get the test kits yet (crazy expensive) but I heard they are necessary because nitrate will diminish faster than phosphate, so you end up having to base your dosage on phosphate. Is this true?

Also, what are the benefits of using Reef Energy? I have a mixed reef with lps, sps, and softies. Will it help them noticeably?

[pciscott]

I have been running GFO for over a year, and while I try new products now and then in my opinion small changes are better as big changes shock systems. This product is carbon dosing similar to vodka and while bio pellets is a different type of carbon dosing all three have similar chemistry and tend to work more on the nitrate than phosphate. GFO goes the extra to put the phosphate very low where I like it that is why I am running it still on top of that if you change too much you have a hard time figuring out your results.

On my other system with solid pellet carbon dosing my nitrate values came down so fast it shocked my Corals and the animals became pale and less healthy. I added fish, fed more, and put in coral food and my colors came back. What I learned from this was if you are going to strip nutrients from the water your Corals need something added back in. The benefit of this system is the combination of how N03-P04 X that takes out the bad stuff and Reef Energy A and B add in the good stuff and will lessen the stress of going low nutrient.

After one week my numbers have come down, my algae seems less on glass and a few spots of HA, my colors seem a little better, my skim is much darker, and my polyps extension is better. My tank is 80% SPS, 20% LPS and shroom.

I know Reef Energy adds to the cost, but this is the only nutrient source you have to dose so think of it as buying food. I am using the Hanna low range photo meter for p04 testing and I did buy the Red Sea low range nitrate test kit. If your nitrate is higher than 10 the salifert test kit is a little easier to use, but when your levels come down the RS kit is much more accurate.

Marine Depot has better prices as my LFS was almost double and the Reef Energy needs to be refrigerated or it will spoil.

Red Sea has impressed me with how much effort they are putting in on this new reef care program and I am going to give it a try. I just bought their colors test kit and I am trying to earn my junior technician badge as these test are very complex, some advice on these kits is to watch the video demonstrations on Red Sea's site they are very helpful.

Good luck with your tank!

[bertoni]

It's hard to know whether dropping the GFO was a good idea. If the phosphate level starts rising, I'd restart the GFO, at least until the pellets seem to be doing something.

[kyley]

Tagging along here - I'll be interested to hear how this works for you guys long term (with Reef Energy added). It sounds good, but I'm not ready to be a guinea pig myself I'm just starting with VCV carbon dosing with ZEObak, Coral Snow, and Brightwell's Coral Amino. The Red Sea product claims some advantages, but I guess they're just claims at this point.

Does the NO3:PO4-X recommend a bacteria additive like most carbon dosing? Is it recommended to keep Alk in lower ranges (6-7) like with other carbon dosing? Take care,
--Kyle

[89Foxbody]

No it doesn't recommend any bacterial additives or anything. It seems like it's starting to work as I have a bunch of dead algae in my filter floss and the algae itself is easier to remove as well. My skimmer output has definitely increased.

[barry_keith]

Keep us updated please

[RedSea Aviad]

Originally Posted by kyley

Tagging along here - I'll be interested to hear how this works for you guys long term (with Reef Energy added). It sounds good, but I'm not ready to be a guinea pig myself I'm just starting with VCV carbon dosing with ZEObak, Coral Snow, and Brightwell's Coral Amino. The Red Sea product claims some advantages, but I guess they're just claims at this point.

Does the NO3:PO4-X recommend a bacteria additive like most carbon dosing? Is it recommended to keep Alk in lower ranges (6-7) like with other carbon dosing? Take care,
--Kyle

Hi Kyle,
Trust me, you WILL NOT be a guinea pig!
I have been the one(along with others) to test all the RCP, along with NO3-PO4-X, for 2 years prior to the very successful launch worldwide, on my own privet tank at home along with the ones in the R&D lab.

We, at Red Sea, test our products long before we release them to the market.
Even after the products are out on the market, we take every feedback from forums\vendors\phone calls, very seriously and double check ourselves, in order to insure hobbyists' satisfaction.
We know that the only way people will be happy with us, is by providing them the solution to their problems and getting their tank to look amazing!
If any of you have any more questions about our products visit Red Sea’s website, or ask me over Red Sea’s Forum on RC.
I’ll be happy to assist.
All the best,
Aviad

[Holsteiner]

We've been using this product for about 8 months ago and are very happy with the results. We never had major problems with nitrates or phosphates but always had just a touch. A few weeks after starting our nitrates and phosphates hit zero and have never creeped up. We also noticed a big difference in our SPS, they have colored up more then ever before. We use it with the reef energy as well, we love it and will continue using it on our reef.

[89Foxbody]

To update, my hair algae has started to turn brown in places and overall is much easier to remove manually (not as well anchored to the rocks). Corals seem to look a bit. Better as well. Tested my nitrate this morning and from the API kit it was 5 or below. Ill use the Red Sea kit tonight. Not sure about my PO4, API looked like .25 ppm but it's hard to tell. Plus my API kits are about a year old so who knows how accurate they are.

Anyhow, very happy with the product so far.

[rich19020]

I have been dosing with Red Sea NO3-PO4 X every day is that alright? It has helped my algae so I haven't stopped. Am I causing and negative affects?

[kyley]

Originally Posted by RedSea Aviad

Hi Kyle,
Trust me, you WILL NOT be a guinea pig!
I have been the one(along with others) to test all the RCP, along with NO3-PO4-X, for 2 years prior to the very successful launch worldwide, on my own privet tank at home along with the ones in the R&D lab.

Hi Aviad,
I understand, but until products are proven by the community, I'm slow to adopt I've been slow to adopt carbon dosing in general as there are some issues with it that came about over time (i.e. tissue recession in SPS corals - but it appears that can be reduced by maintaining lower Alk values - a tradeoff). I'm moving forward with VCV for now and several products along with it (Amino Acids, ZeoBak, & Coral Snow).

My main tank is actually a Red Sea Max 65 gallon, so I've paid attention to Red Sea products. I love this tank, but it's not without faults either NO3-PO4-X sounds great, but I'm not convinced it doesn't have its own faults (yet). From what I understand, it's methanol-based for its carbon source? And I'm not clear what exactly is in the Reef Energy products either, and it's good to know what's in them so we can test for them and not overdose (i.e. some of the trace elements). Nevertheless, these two products are intriguing and I'll see how my VCV dosing goes. I may try them out eventually. Take care,
--Kyle

[89Foxbody]

Originally Posted by rich19020

I have been dosing with Red Sea NO3-PO4 X every day is that alright? It has helped my algae so I haven't stopped. Am I causing and negative affects?

Yes, you want to dose it every day, and test your no3 and po4 weekly to gauge your progress. Try not to miss a day.

[RedSea Aviad]

Originally Posted by kyley

Hi Aviad,
I understand, but until products are proven by the community, I'm slow to adopt I've been slow to adopt carbon dosing in general as there are some issues with it that came about over time (i.e. tissue recession in SPS corals - but it appears that can be reduced by maintaining lower Alk values - a tradeoff). I'm moving forward with VCV for now and several products along with it (Amino Acids, ZeoBak, & Coral Snow).

My main tank is actually a Red Sea Max 65 gallon, so I've paid attention to Red Sea products. I love this tank, but it's not without faults either NO3-PO4-X sounds great, but I'm not convinced it doesn't have its own faults (yet). From what I understand, it's methanol-based for its carbon source? And I'm not clear what exactly is in the Reef Energy products either, and it's good to know what's in them so we can test for them and not overdose (i.e. some of the trace elements). Nevertheless, these two products are intriguing and I'll see how my VCV dosing goes. I may try them out eventually. Take care,
--Kyle

Hi Kyle,
I know that's the way it works, I just wanted to clarify our way of doing things beyond any doubt.
Aviad.

[alessandro]

Hi Aviad,
I follow with interest threads regarding nopox.
From early adopters it seems that, just like others carbon source like zeovit/FM/vodka/vinegar/GAA/VCV and so on nopox drive to an imbalance between NO3 and PO4 with NO3 zero readings and PO4 in the 0.03-0.08 range.
I know you suggest to halve the nopox somministration until NO3 hit 0.25 but, speaking with some users, PO4 seems doesn't fall but often rise as well.
What do you think about using, when reach near zero with NO3, a few GAC to compensare the inbalanced RR?
Imbalanced RR drives to cyano...

[RedSea Aviad]

Originally Posted by alessandro

Hi Aviad,
I follow with interest threads regarding nopox.
From early adopters it seems that, just like others carbon source like zeovit/FM/vodka/vinegar/GAA/VCV and so on nopox drive to an imbalance between NO3 and PO4 with NO3 zero readings and PO4 in the 0.03-0.08 range.
I know you suggest to halve the nopox somministration until NO3 hit 0.25 but, speaking with some users, PO4 seems doesn't fall but often rise as well.
What do you think about using, when reach near zero with NO3, a few GAC to compensare the inbalanced RR?
Imbalanced RR drives to cyano...

Great question from Italy, I love to see hobbyists with knowledge about the biological processes.
Since I don't know all the tech. data for the other shelf products, I’ll skip to the home made products.

As appose to those concoctions and mixes, NO3-PO4-X has a balanced ratio of all the ingredients, but that’s the easy part….
The thing that gives our product superiority is the minor and trace elements added to it.
Under regular conditions these elements are depleted from the water and become a limiting factor for the complete reduction. (we added them to our product to prevent it)
These key elements allow a full reduction of NO3 to N2 without partial and incomplete reduction that can lead to toxic byproducts.
Another thing is the suppression of the Sulfur Cycle preventing anaerobic reduction of SO4 (Sulfate) to, the notorious and highly toxic, H2S (Hydrogen sulfide).


As for the use of NO3-PO4-X, and the imbalance between NO3 and PO4, I’ll start from the end.
As you said, in order to prevent cyanobacteria we recommend not to drop the NO3 levels to 0.
When we have elevated levels of PO4 (usually new tanks) it will take more time BUT they will eventually drop.
If the levels go up, it means that there is something that is “exporting” PO4- in most cases overfeeding, “dead zones” where uneaten food is collected and decompose, insufficient filtration and so on.
I have seen some of our customers using GFO in order to achieve the balance in new tanks, as a shortcut, but it’s unnecessary.


Consider watching the below video which is a part of 5 that might shed light on the subject.










I hope I coverd everything.
Feel free to challenge me more on our Forum on RC.
Have a wonderful day,
Aviad

[alessandro]

Originally Posted by RedSea Aviad

Another thing is the suppression of the Sulfur Cycle preventing anaerobic reduction of SO4 (Sulfate) to, the notorious and highly toxic, H2S (Hydrogen sulfide).

Thank you very much, Aviad.
Could you elaborate a bit about the anaerobic reduction of sulfate of the other carbon sources?
I know that can happen in deeper layer of DSB but I am not aware it can happen in carbon dosing routine.
Do you refer to zeolites?

[RedSea Aviad]

Sulfate-reducing bacteria -from Wikipedia

Sulfate-reducing bacteria are those bacteria and archaea that obtain their energy by oxidizing organic compounds or molecular hydrogen (H2) while reducing sulfate (SO4) to hydrogen sulfide (H2S). In a sense, these organisms "breathe" sulfate rather than oxygen, in a form of anaerobic respiration.

We can find anaerobic conditions deep inside the live rock and in the DSB.
As long as we have organic compounds available bacteria will “breath” Oxygen, the “next best thing” is Nitrate NO3 and then SO4.
The deeper you venture into the substrate (Live rock & DSB) the first two deplete allowing reduction of SO4.
It happens under regular conditions, When NO3 is abundant, and even more so when NO3 is scarce and we add available carbon source.

*I don’t know how the zeolite method works so I can’t refer to it.

I hope I helped,
Have a great week,
Aviad

[Sawen]

I started dosing NO3-Po4-X eight days ago. My nitrate reading at that time was 2.5 ppm and my phosphate read 0.08.

Today, my readings are nitrate at 0.50 ppm and phosphates unchanged at 0.08.

I am also using Rhowphos at the same time. I am surprised my phosphates have not gone down. I am also surprised my nitrate has gone down so fast.

My tank is 4.5 months old and I am currently battling hair algae.

[RedSea Aviad]

In addition to the above, from our Chief Scientist.
A great article about NO3:PO4-X
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2094884
Enjoy,
Aviad

[rizon25]

I'm on my 4th day dosing with no3 po4 x. I had a really bad cyano problem before and now it seems more controlled but still there. My nitrates are low from my API test kit between 0 and 5 ppm. I need to get the red sea test kit soon. My tank is fairly new too, about 2 months old now. We'll see in a few weeks how everything turns out.

[mtlreeffreak]

any more updates?

[larryfl1]

updates please???

also how are mixed reef doing with this system? i have mixed soft, lps, sps and heavy fish..... a little bit of everything

[JPMagyar]

I started dosing 25 ml per day two weeks ago. My system has a total volume around 3000 L or 750 gallons. I have seen NO3 levels fall from 1 to 2 ppm to 0 to 0.25 ppm. The water "looks" clearer and the corals have much improved polyp extension, BUT I am experiencing the rise in PO4 mentioned above by Alessandro in post # 16. My PO4 has gone from 0.02 to 0.08 ppm over the same time period.


I believe I can eliminate over feeding or rotting food and/or low flow as a problem in my tank so I am looking for other explanations.

How exactly is NOPOx supposed to eliminate PO4?


If Aviad should join in "thank-you", and forgive me if I sound rude, but please don't say "watch the videos". It is my opinion, they are childish and offer little of scientific value. Great for advertising, but terrible for gaining a deeper understanding of what is supposed to be going on chemically.


For the time being I am planning on reducing to 15 ml per day, and I will wait until I take a reading next Tuesday before I make any further changes.


I should also note that I saw the mention of some individuals who believed they were getting erroneous readings with their PO4 tests so I checked my PO4 reading against a batch of new water that is sitting ready for a water change. I got a reading of 0.0 PO4 so I have some confidence that my PO4 readings are accurate.


Thanks,

Joe