sump plumbing issue

jedimaster1138 · 10/24/2011, 12:49 AM

So I'm working on getting my return plumbed, but am having some big time confusion doing it right.

Eheim 1260 return pump. This uses a 5/8" hose barb on the output pressure side. OK fine. I purchased a bunch of what I'm pretty sure is high quality 5/8" ID vinyl flex and a U tube for up in the tank. I also picked up a 5/8" double hose barb ball valve so I can tweak the return if needed (I actually haven't had to tweak it at all, but whatever)

My issue is that I want to also integrate a union fitting up stream of the pump so that I can perform the usual maintenance without ripping off the tubing. Also, and most importantly I've realized that I would be foolish to not work in a check valve to help deal with the back siphon into the sump when the power is off to the Eheim. Yes my sump has extra capacity, but hey, it's good to be safe right? I live an in apartment and want to over engineer things in the interests of safety.

I'm just confused though as to how to work the check valve/union in. I realize Marine Depot sells this, which seems popular http://www.marinedepot.com/True_Unio...FTVLTC-vi.html

but it doesn't seem to come in 5/8"... or hose barb. Just slip or threaded. Ok fine, they make adapters...but yeah...1/2 or 3/4 and then up from there. I assume I'd want to go up to 3/4" but then... i need some kind of 5/8" barb -> 3/4" slip and then pvc cement it to the union check valve?? Does such a fitting exist because I can't seem to find it. Now you see how confused I am.

There's also the matter of the output fitting on the Eheim seems to also have threads down below the hose barb area which i am certain are a wider diameter than 5/8... Does this mean there's something I can slip over the barb and connect up that way?

Lastly... once i get that all worked in... what size vinyl do I want to use for the longest section of the run back to the display? Should I be stepping up to 3/4 at that point? BTW, I'd like to stick with vinyl all the way for noise purposes and because it's just easier to run. I'd have to make a couple minor bends and would like to avoid the angled PVC fittings and head loss. Also, vinyl seems to make it easier on the hum reducing...

Sorry for the noob-ish questions here about the plumbing. I probably just need a bit of response full of ->'s heh I'm an electrical engineer and we avoid water at all costs so i'm a little lost on the fitting terminology.

TIA you folks all seem like fine hobbits and this forum is quite the resource.

billdogg · 10/24/2011, 06:42 AM

Any and all fittings you might need can be found at www.savko.com As for the check valve - don't waste your money - it WILL FAIL!!! Unions are a great thing, but if you are going with all vinyl tubing, it is easy enough to just remove it from the end of the pump - I don't know that I would bother. I have a 1262 plumbed with all vinyl that way and it is very easy to remove it from the tubing for it's occasional cleaning.

daplatapus · 10/24/2011, 07:46 AM

I just looked at the owners manual on-line and I would bet part #10 is supposed to come off if you are using 3/4" threaded. It's just an adapter for the hose barb. I would lose that and plumb everything in 3/4" personally. I second billdogg's recommendation to lose the check valve, it will get corroded and fail exactly when you need it the most.

jedimaster1138 · 10/24/2011, 04:02 PM

daplatapus - part # 10, at least in the manual, looks like the 1" barb on the INTAKE side of the pump. That is indeed removed, at least it's supposed to be when you use the 1260 submersed. The specs show that the 5/8" barb is used on the output side (in fact i think it came preinstalled on here) so that's what I left on and bought 5/8 ID tubing.

But OK. This makes sense...the going to 3/4" tubing bit. It seems like 5/8 isn't very common in terms of fittings and things too. As it happens, i have 25 feet of 3/4" ID laying around any way. So that's nice.

As for the use of the union vs just pulling off the vinyl. Maybe i'm weak in the hands but i have a bugger of a time pulling the vinyl off the barbs. I'd much prefer the idea of being able to unscrew the union and perform maintenance that way, if possible.

So now laying it all out...please correct me if i'm crazy...

Pump ---> 3/4" MPT-3/4" Barb ---> some short length of 3/4" ID tubing, i think --->3/4" barb-3/4" slip ---> 3/4 slip/slip union (or union check)--->3/4 slip-3/4 barb ---> 3/4" tubing up ** to the display and a u Tube.

Remaining questions for you wise folks...

Where would make the most sense to place a 3/4" ball valve to reduce flow and completely shut off back siphon from the display? I'm inclined to have that at the display tank end of the line, ie the last thing before the final run of tubing. Now that i've typed that out, it makes the most sense, correct me if i'm wrong... ie at the position of the ** then tubing - U tube.

Last question...

My tank is a 29g tank, it's roughly 30" wide. I have the CPR CS90 towards the left side of the tank with the return on the far right. Would it make more sense to put the CS90 right in the middle and then SPLIT my return at either extreme left and right end? Or is this over kill for my size tank? Something about the symmetry appeals to me (OCD engineer) but I also wonder if it's better to skimmer into the CS90 right in the center as opposed to off to one side. Also, furthering this topic...how do you all feel about SCWDs these days if I was to split the return, especially in terms of reliability.

I'm not too concerned about water movement. I have plans on Hydor Korailia Evolution 550's on either side 1/2 down anyway, with alternating off/on anyway.

Again, thanks in advance, you guys and girls kick butt.

daplatapus · 10/24/2011, 10:39 PM

My apologies, you're totally right, #10 is the intake. I guess I should have said #3

It sounds like you have it figured out all the way to the tank the way you want it. I agree the barbs are a bit of a pain to get that pipe off, especially after it's been on there a bit.
I personally like the sound of the overflow in the centre with a discharge in either corner too.
Keep in mind that to prevent the discharges from becoming siphon's in the event of a power outage that they need to be kept high in the water or you have to drill a small hole on the underside of them just below the water line so air is sucked in to break the siphon.

As far as the location of the ball valve, it depends on where your sump is going to be. If you have a long drop you want the valve closer to the sump than to the DT. My sump is in my basement so I have 9' of head pressure. Putting the valve near the tank doesn't work nearly as well because of the suction the siphon exerts on it on the downstream side. With the valve near the bottom, it exerts head pressure on the valve which is much easier to handle the flow and have only a couple feet of suction under it. Not sure if that makes sense to you or not. If your sump is just under the DT I don't think it makes much difference.

daplatapus · 10/24/2011, 10:39 PM

Ack, double post. Sorry

jedimaster1138 · 10/25/2011, 01:10 AM

Thanks for the reply. I get what you mean about the ball valve placement. Like you said, with less than 4 feet of run, it's probably not a big deal.

Yeah I think I have a plan now. I ordered some fittings and such tonight. I took what seems to be the universal advice and canned the idea of a check valve. It makes sense that they wouldn't be reliable in a marine aquarium. I've heard the bit about drilling a small hole in the return u-tube before. When i figure out exactly what my water level is i'll do that. As it is, the return is near the top of my tank anyway, so the back siphon isn't bad in the first place, but yeah, once i'm a little closer to a steady state of water level (and know what the in sump skimmer will want...) and circulation i'm going to mark it and put an in the siphon busting hole. Safety good...my neighbors will thank me for it when/if there's a power outage or pump poop out.

I'm going to can the 5/8" and re-plumb it all with 3/4" return vinyl. I've ordered the fittings, a 3/4" union and a new 3/4 ball valve. Probably see it all this weekend. If the Halloween parties aren't too much of a train wreck, I hope to plumb then. Heh

As of right now i'm sticking with the single return and the CS90 off center. Yeah the split with the overflow centered will probably work better... next time i'm placing an order i'll probably pick up a Y and another u-tube. I still have to pick up a protein skimmer, so i'll lump it in with that order. (accepting advice on that too...haven't done a ton of research on that yet, but have drooled a little over the Reef Octopus 4 the little of read so far) Plumbing the Y would be easy anyway, as it'll bit upstream of everything else. The biggest aggravation will be drilling another hole in the back of my stand, though I have to pull the sump out anyway ... i'm obtaining a foam board to place it on to help dampen the vibrations.

I've seen some not 100% positive SCWD reviews, so I think i'm going to avoid using one of them, for now. Besides, i think i'm better off with alternating/chaotic flow via powerhead anyway. Those will be firing right across the rock pile which is certainly more important.

10/24/2011, 06:42 AM	#2
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	Any and all fittings you might need can be found at www.savko.com As for the check valve - don't waste your money - it WILL FAIL!!! Unions are a great thing, but if you are going with all vinyl tubing, it is easy enough to just remove it from the end of the pump - I don't know that I would bother. I have a 1262 plumbed with all vinyl that way and it is very easy to remove it from the tubing for it's occasional cleaning. __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

10/24/2011, 10:39 PM	#5
daplatapus Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Port Alberni, B.C., Canada Posts: 895	My apologies, you're totally right, #10 is the intake. I guess I should have said #3 It sounds like you have it figured out all the way to the tank the way you want it. I agree the barbs are a bit of a pain to get that pipe off, especially after it's been on there a bit. I personally like the sound of the overflow in the centre with a discharge in either corner too. Keep in mind that to prevent the discharges from becoming siphon's in the event of a power outage that they need to be kept high in the water or you have to drill a small hole on the underside of them just below the water line so air is sucked in to break the siphon. As far as the location of the ball valve, it depends on where your sump is going to be. If you have a long drop you want the valve closer to the sump than to the DT. My sump is in my basement so I have 9' of head pressure. Putting the valve near the tank doesn't work nearly as well because of the suction the siphon exerts on it on the downstream side. With the valve near the bottom, it exerts head pressure on the valve which is much easier to handle the flow and have only a couple feet of suction under it. Not sure if that makes sense to you or not. If your sump is just under the DT I don't think it makes much difference. __________________ 130 lbs Tonga LR, GFO and Carbon reactors, Tunze ozmolator ATO, 2- 20 gal QT tanks, Current Tank Info: 80 gal display 48L X 24H X16D, 2 MP-40's, Odyssea 2-250W MH 4-HO T-5 Actinic's, 80 lbs Aragonite sand, 4 - 150W titanium heaters, Reeflo Baracuda return pump, 150gal sump, Filter Guys Reef Miser 6 stage + 1 Dual RO/DI, LifeReef 48" Skimmer

10/24/2011, 10:39 PM	#6
daplatapus Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Port Alberni, B.C., Canada Posts: 895	Ack, double post. Sorry __________________ 130 lbs Tonga LR, GFO and Carbon reactors, Tunze ozmolator ATO, 2- 20 gal QT tanks, Current Tank Info: 80 gal display 48L X 24H X16D, 2 MP-40's, Odyssea 2-250W MH 4-HO T-5 Actinic's, 80 lbs Aragonite sand, 4 - 150W titanium heaters, Reeflo Baracuda return pump, 150gal sump, Filter Guys Reef Miser 6 stage + 1 Dual RO/DI, LifeReef 48" Skimmer

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10/24/2011, 12:49 AM	#1
jedimaster1138 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: NYC Posts: 133	sump plumbing issue So I'm working on getting my return plumbed, but am having some big time confusion doing it right. Eheim 1260 return pump. This uses a 5/8" hose barb on the output pressure side. OK fine. I purchased a bunch of what I'm pretty sure is high quality 5/8" ID vinyl flex and a U tube for up in the tank. I also picked up a 5/8" double hose barb ball valve so I can tweak the return if needed (I actually haven't had to tweak it at all, but whatever) My issue is that I want to also integrate a union fitting up stream of the pump so that I can perform the usual maintenance without ripping off the tubing. Also, and most importantly I've realized that I would be foolish to not work in a check valve to help deal with the back siphon into the sump when the power is off to the Eheim. Yes my sump has extra capacity, but hey, it's good to be safe right? I live an in apartment and want to over engineer things in the interests of safety. I'm just confused though as to how to work the check valve/union in. I realize Marine Depot sells this, which seems popular http://www.marinedepot.com/True_Unio...FTVLTC-vi.html but it doesn't seem to come in 5/8"... or hose barb. Just slip or threaded. Ok fine, they make adapters...but yeah...1/2 or 3/4 and then up from there. I assume I'd want to go up to 3/4" but then... i need some kind of 5/8" barb -> 3/4" slip and then pvc cement it to the union check valve?? Does such a fitting exist because I can't seem to find it. Now you see how confused I am. There's also the matter of the output fitting on the Eheim seems to also have threads down below the hose barb area which i am certain are a wider diameter than 5/8... Does this mean there's something I can slip over the barb and connect up that way? Lastly... once i get that all worked in... what size vinyl do I want to use for the longest section of the run back to the display? Should I be stepping up to 3/4 at that point? BTW, I'd like to stick with vinyl all the way for noise purposes and because it's just easier to run. I'd have to make a couple minor bends and would like to avoid the angled PVC fittings and head loss. Also, vinyl seems to make it easier on the hum reducing... Sorry for the noob-ish questions here about the plumbing. I probably just need a bit of response full of ->'s heh I'm an electrical engineer and we avoid water at all costs so i'm a little lost on the fitting terminology. TIA you folks all seem like fine hobbits and this forum is quite the resource.

10/24/2011, 07:46 AM	#3
daplatapus Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Port Alberni, B.C., Canada Posts: 895	I just looked at the owners manual on-line and I would bet part #10 is supposed to come off if you are using 3/4" threaded. It's just an adapter for the hose barb. I would lose that and plumb everything in 3/4" personally. I second billdogg's recommendation to lose the check valve, it will get corroded and fail exactly when you need it the most. __________________ 130 lbs Tonga LR, GFO and Carbon reactors, Tunze ozmolator ATO, 2- 20 gal QT tanks, Current Tank Info: 80 gal display 48L X 24H X16D, 2 MP-40's, Odyssea 2-250W MH 4-HO T-5 Actinic's, 80 lbs Aragonite sand, 4 - 150W titanium heaters, Reeflo Baracuda return pump, 150gal sump, Filter Guys Reef Miser 6 stage + 1 Dual RO/DI, LifeReef 48" Skimmer

10/24/2011, 04:02 PM	#4
jedimaster1138 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: NYC Posts: 133	daplatapus - part # 10, at least in the manual, looks like the 1" barb on the INTAKE side of the pump. That is indeed removed, at least it's supposed to be when you use the 1260 submersed. The specs show that the 5/8" barb is used on the output side (in fact i think it came preinstalled on here) so that's what I left on and bought 5/8 ID tubing. But OK. This makes sense...the going to 3/4" tubing bit. It seems like 5/8 isn't very common in terms of fittings and things too. As it happens, i have 25 feet of 3/4" ID laying around any way. So that's nice. As for the use of the union vs just pulling off the vinyl. Maybe i'm weak in the hands but i have a bugger of a time pulling the vinyl off the barbs. I'd much prefer the idea of being able to unscrew the union and perform maintenance that way, if possible. So now laying it all out...please correct me if i'm crazy... Pump ---> 3/4" MPT-3/4" Barb ---> some short length of 3/4" ID tubing, i think --->3/4" barb-3/4" slip ---> 3/4 slip/slip union (or union check)--->3/4 slip-3/4 barb ---> 3/4" tubing up to the display and a u Tube. Remaining questions for you wise folks... Where would make the most sense to place a 3/4" ball valve to reduce flow and completely shut off back siphon from the display? I'm inclined to have that at the display tank end of the line, ie the last thing before the final run of tubing. Now that i've typed that out, it makes the most sense, correct me if i'm wrong... ie at the position of the then tubing - U tube. Last question... My tank is a 29g tank, it's roughly 30" wide. I have the CPR CS90 towards the left side of the tank with the return on the far right. Would it make more sense to put the CS90 right in the middle and then SPLIT my return at either extreme left and right end? Or is this over kill for my size tank? Something about the symmetry appeals to me (OCD engineer) but I also wonder if it's better to skimmer into the CS90 right in the center as opposed to off to one side. Also, furthering this topic...how do you all feel about SCWDs these days if I was to split the return, especially in terms of reliability. I'm not too concerned about water movement. I have plans on Hydor Korailia Evolution 550's on either side 1/2 down anyway, with alternating off/on anyway. Again, thanks in advance, you guys and girls kick butt.

10/25/2011, 01:10 AM	#7
jedimaster1138 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: NYC Posts: 133	Thanks for the reply. I get what you mean about the ball valve placement. Like you said, with less than 4 feet of run, it's probably not a big deal. Yeah I think I have a plan now. I ordered some fittings and such tonight. I took what seems to be the universal advice and canned the idea of a check valve. It makes sense that they wouldn't be reliable in a marine aquarium. I've heard the bit about drilling a small hole in the return u-tube before. When i figure out exactly what my water level is i'll do that. As it is, the return is near the top of my tank anyway, so the back siphon isn't bad in the first place, but yeah, once i'm a little closer to a steady state of water level (and know what the in sump skimmer will want...) and circulation i'm going to mark it and put an in the siphon busting hole. Safety good...my neighbors will thank me for it when/if there's a power outage or pump poop out. I'm going to can the 5/8" and re-plumb it all with 3/4" return vinyl. I've ordered the fittings, a 3/4" union and a new 3/4 ball valve. Probably see it all this weekend. If the Halloween parties aren't too much of a train wreck, I hope to plumb then. Heh As of right now i'm sticking with the single return and the CS90 off center. Yeah the split with the overflow centered will probably work better... next time i'm placing an order i'll probably pick up a Y and another u-tube. I still have to pick up a protein skimmer, so i'll lump it in with that order. (accepting advice on that too...haven't done a ton of research on that yet, but have drooled a little over the Reef Octopus 4 the little of read so far) Plumbing the Y would be easy anyway, as it'll bit upstream of everything else. The biggest aggravation will be drilling another hole in the back of my stand, though I have to pull the sump out anyway ... i'm obtaining a foam board to place it on to help dampen the vibrations. I've seen some not 100% positive SCWD reviews, so I think i'm going to avoid using one of them, for now. Besides, i think i'm better off with alternating/chaotic flow via powerhead anyway. Those will be firing right across the rock pile which is certainly more important.