So, scrubbers are trendy now?

[HippieSmell]

I haven't been on this forum for a while, and the thing I notice most since coming back are the popularity of scrubbers. I remember when I started, deep sand beds were in vogue because of Ron Shimek and Eric Borneman, then a guy named Bomber started a war by introducing bare bottoms. Who started the scrubber craze? I just think it's interesting that I've been around this hobby long enough now to see trends come and go, and ultimately come full circle, namely the technology camp vs the biology camp. Interesting stuff.

[sporto0]

I don't know who started it, but it's no more effective than any other band aid method of controlling nuisance algae, yeah it's easy to grow algae with poor water conditions, who doesn't know that? The trick with scrubbers is keeping the algae on your screen, if you can keep a refugium full of Macro Algae, it's far more beneficial & does the same thing. You have been around a long time in the hobby as some of us have been, trends come & go, but the basics remain the same. You must keep your nutrients low by not overloading your system with fish or overfeeding, that will remain constant.

[Wind Seeker]

Google Santamonica ATS. Scrubbers have merit. I have one. Not a magic bullet however.

[frankpayne32]

Definitely trendy. You will not be able to find a show quality tank that runs an ATS while forgoing a skimmer. They do have some merit as part of a comprehensive filter scheme though.

[redneckgearhead]

Originally Posted by frankpayne32

Definitely trendy. You will not be able to find a show quality tank that runs an ATS while forgoing a skimmer. They do have some merit as part of a comprehensive filter scheme though.

That is a pretty broad statement.

I run a scrubber as PART of nutrient removal. It is the ONLY thing that kicked the HA out of my tank after doing every recommended (and some not recommended) idea/trick suggested. They are cheap/easy to build and easy to maintain AND they work.

[frankpayne32]

Originally Posted by redneckgearhead

That is a pretty broad statement.

I run a scrubber as PART of nutrient removal. It is the ONLY thing that kicked the HA out of my tank after doing every recommended (and some not recommended) idea/trick suggested. They are cheap/easy to build and easy to maintain AND they work.

It is a broad statement but IME it is a true one. I have spent months researching scrubbers and have actually run one on my tank. I'm open to being proved wrong. But, I haven't seen a show quality tank that runs a scrubber and no skimmer.

[1Sik1500]

I have to agree. I have done a tons of research on ATS. I have yet to run into one of those persons who have regreted doing it. I have heard complaints of noise and evaporation. But perfection only ends in the fabricators skills. I plan on running one. i believe it is a nice failsafe to have another means of filtration. Trendy no. Practical and proven yes.

[HippieSmell]

Well, scrubbers aren't new, and the huge increase in users proves that it is, indeed trendy. Buncha hipster reefers .

I'm glad to see it though, makes the hobby more interesting. The scrubbers I remember were big, paddle wheel contraptions. The trendy ones remind me more of a modified macro fuge.

[HippieSmell]

Originally Posted by Wind Seeker

Google Santamonica ATS. Scrubbers have merit. I have one. Not a magic bullet however.

This is the guy who popularized scrubbers?

I see he's selling them too...

[frankpayne32]

Originally Posted by HippieSmell

This is the guy who popularized scrubbers?

I see he's selling them too...

That's him, he was banned from this forum for pushing his wares among other things.

[Toddrtrex]

Originally Posted by HippieSmell

This is the guy who popularized scrubbers?

I see he's selling them too...

If you have been around long enough to remember the DSB/BB wars, you might remember him flooding the forums with this ATS. For the longest time he claimed that he wasn't selling them. I wouldn't trust what he says/sells as far as I could throw him -- and after 5 back surgeries that isn't very far.

[Lanimret]

Originally Posted by sporto0

I don't know who started it, but it's no more effective than any other band aid method of controlling nuisance algae, yeah it's easy to grow algae with poor water conditions, who doesn't know that? The trick with scrubbers is keeping the algae on your screen, if you can keep a refugium full of Macro Algae, it's far more beneficial & does the same thing. You have been around a long time in the hobby as some of us have been, trends come & go, but the basics remain the same. You must keep your nutrients low by not overloading your system with fish or overfeeding, that will remain constant.

Could one not argue it is always 'trendy' to bash trendy?

The point is, there is nothing harmfull about ATS, they are cheap to build, cheap to maintain, and do offer benefits. There is nothing that says you can't keep a refugium full of macro algae, a protein skimmer AND an ATS (which is what I do). They all have their unique benefits and provide some level of redundancy for one another.

My two screen ATS probably cost me all of $50 to build, works like a charm, and does not adversely effect my tank in anyway. I have always kept a refugium full of macro algae and a skimmer and have still battled nutrient issues over the years. I likely had some unidentifiable issue causing it, but that's exactly the point. Without the ATS there is so little margin for error pretty much anything can be enough to throw your tank out of whack. The ATS just provides a bit more of a buffer for mistakes and/or undetected issues. Why is that a bad thing?

[dogstar74]

I think that they may be trendy. People suffering algae problems tend to look for the easiest solution to fix the problem. Who's to say if one method is "right" or "wrong" as long as the end result is the same.

Few people make the claim that a scrubber runs exclusively to fix every ill of our aquariums. In fact I bet the number of people who have turned off their skimmer and started an ATS is very few. Most people I would wager run both. And why not?! Anything that filters crap out of the water is good for the system isn't it?

I think the ATS offers an option for a biological method of filtration similar in many respects to a refugium. So why not use both the skimmer and the ATS? I can find no compelling arguments that a refugium is any more effective or desired than an ATS. However a refugium does require more room under a stand than I have, so I don't employ a fuge at this time.

I think whether you use micro algae (ATS), Macro (refuge), or mangroves, the idea is the same, Phos and Nitrate removal. There really is no magic to the systems.

just my .02

[whipsaw]

I didn't like the waste of lighting and space, so I solve the problem by using my display tank as a scrubber. Works so well I'll never go back.

[HippieSmell]

Originally Posted by whipsaw

I didn't like the waste of lighting and space, so I solve the problem by using my display tank as a scrubber. Works so well I'll never go back.

You put those big plastic sheets in your display?

[shrimphead]

an ATS is like a more efficient refugium (for nutrient export) but compared to a refugium it is has more maintenance, like scrubbing the mesh down every week/ 2 weeks also all the evaporation and or salt creep depending on design of the ATS you'll have to be wiping it down from salt creep alot. also you can't go on holiday for a month and just leave it to do it's thing, it has to maintained otherwise all those nutrients it's taken up will go back into your system and could potentially crash your tank.

[HippieSmell]

Originally Posted by shrimphead

an ATS is like a more efficient refugium (for nutrient export) but compared to a refugium it is has more maintenance, like scrubbing the mesh down every week/ 2 weeks also all the evaporation and or salt creep depending on design of the ATS you'll have to be wiping it down from salt creep alot. also you can't go on holiday for a month and just leave it to do it's thing, it has to maintained otherwise all those nutrients it's taken up will go back into your system and could potentially crash your tank.

They do seem pretty high maintenance, which makes me think they're definitely a trend. Most reefers are lazy, me included.

[redneckgearhead]

Originally Posted by shrimphead

an ATS is like a more efficient refugium (for nutrient export) but compared to a refugium it is has more maintenance, like scrubbing the mesh down every week/ 2 weeks also all the evaporation and or salt creep depending on design of the ATS you'll have to be wiping it down from salt creep alot. also you can't go on holiday for a month and just leave it to do it's thing, it has to maintained otherwise all those nutrients it's taken up will go back into your system and could potentially crash your tank.

You leave your tank unattended for a month? Who goes on holiday for a month? oh and if I where to leave mine for a month the only thing that would happen (for certain) is the algae would continue to grow, the only way it could crash your tank is if somehow the algae died. But again if I went on holiday for a month and my skimmer quit, it could possibly crash my tank, or if I had a heater malfunction.

Yes, there are designs that are flawed, but then again the same goes for EVERY piece of equipment we use/build. I can do my water change, clean my scrubber and my skimmer in less than an hour a week. I have NO issues with salt creep or evaporation.

While he can be very very abrasive at times and pushy, Santamonica does sell his version of ATS, but also shows how to build a dirt cheap model yourself.

For all the nay sayers out there that I have 'ran into' I have yet to have one explain to me why ATS is a bad thing or that it doesn't work.

[whipsaw]

Originally Posted by HippieSmell

You put those big plastic sheets in your display?

of course not
I just pick algae off the rocks where it grows quite happily.

apologies for sarcasm, I find the ATS frenzy on RC a bit bizarre. Not sure that algae is a terrible thing, not sure that the ATS successfully competes for nutrients with the algae in the DT, and kinda wondering how all these nutrients get into people's tanks in the first place.

[Lanimret]

Originally Posted by whipsaw

of course not
I just pick algae off the rocks where it grows quite happily.

apologies for sarcasm, I find the ATS frenzy on RC a bit bizarre. Not sure that algae is a terrible thing, not sure that the ATS successfully competes for nutrients with the algae in the DT, and kinda wondering how all these nutrients get into people's tanks in the first place.

The bigger the tank the more places for problems to hide.

I don't get the hate, what does it matter? It's not hurting anything and you can't argue it's not removing nutrients (or the algae wouldn't grow). It's essentially the same thing you are talking about, removing algae from the tank, but in my case it's just easier cause the Algae is all in one place and attached to a sheet i can scrub instead of a rock that might have coral on it.

[1Sik1500]

Where refugiums trendy at one time? not everyone will employ them. My first tank what strictly a Protein Skimmer. Some would say that is insufficient also. To each there own. i like the diversity and variety of filtration. But it is a topic that can last for many threads...

Is it possible to have to much?

[whipsaw]

Originally Posted by Lanimret

I don't get the hate, what does it matter?

No hate whatsoever. If it works for you then great!
It certainly exports nutrients, but at a significant energy cost.

I just feel that if we're going to pay $ to add nutrients, and then pay $ to remove nutrients, I'm not going to add any more nutrients than are absolutely necessary. If I've got growing phosphates then I'm feeding too much.

Do you feel that the ATS is a direct response to the over-efficiency of carbon dosing? I'm just wondering if there's a cheaper, easier medium.

[shrimphead]

Originally Posted by redneckgearhead

You leave your tank unattended for a month? Who goes on holiday for a month? oh and if I where to leave mine for a month the only thing that would happen (for certain) is the algae would continue to grow, the only way it could crash your tank is if somehow the algae died. But again if I went on holiday for a month and my skimmer quit, it could possibly crash my tank, or if I had a heater malfunction.

Yes, there are designs that are flawed, but then again the same goes for EVERY piece of equipment we use/build. I can do my water change, clean my scrubber and my skimmer in less than an hour a week. I have NO issues with salt creep or evaporation.

While he can be very very abrasive at times and pushy, Santamonica does sell his version of ATS, but also shows how to build a dirt cheap model yourself.

For all the nay sayers out there that I have 'ran into' I have yet to have one explain to me why ATS is a bad thing or that it doesn't work.

First off i'm not saying it's a bad thing but it is more maintenance compared to a refugium and the reason "you want to clean it out at least every 2 weeks " (not my words, santa monica's) is because the pods eat the algae and if you leave it too long they break it up and goes back into the tank or gets trapped somewhere and rots, something like that.

not many people go on holiday for a month but was just an example on why you can't just leave it.

my point about the salt creep that is some designs try to reduce evaporation by enclosing the ATS in a container of somesort but then you get alot of saltcreep.

[HippieSmell]

Originally Posted by 1Sik1500

Where refugiums trendy at one time? not everyone will employ them. My first tank what strictly a Protein Skimmer. Some would say that is insufficient also. To each there own. i like the diversity and variety of filtration. But it is a topic that can last for many threads...

Is it possible to have to much?

I have nothing against them, I was just curious as to why they're so popular right now. I like the diversity as well.

Can we have too much filtration? I suppose, but if you have enough nutrients to grow turf algae, you are nowhere near that point.

[Lanimret]

Originally Posted by whipsaw

No hate whatsoever. If it works for you then great!
It certainly exports nutrients, but at a significant energy cost.

I just feel that if we're going to pay $ to add nutrients, and then pay $ to remove nutrients, I'm not going to add any more nutrients than are absolutely necessary. If I've got growing phosphates then I'm feeding too much.

Do you feel that the ATS is a direct response to the over-efficiency of carbon dosing? I'm just wondering if there's a cheaper, easier medium.

That certainly makes sense, but the balance can be difficult to maintain. If you are feeding the ATS from your drain (I am not, but you can, my situation just does not allow it) and you are using CFL's to light the ATS (which also act as the lighting for my refugium as my ATS is part of my refugium) the added energy needed is very small.

The ATS gives me a buffer. If my skimmer fails, I still have the ATS. If my ATS fails, i still have the skimmer. If I accidentally overfeed I don't end up with a nightmare of an aglae problem. If a fish dies, I have extra filtration to buffer the tank from a nutrient dump.

I look at it as a pressure relief valve basically. It doesn't solve the root problem, but it keeps that problem from crashing the tank while I find it.