Dying Snails?!

[CRC88]

So I came home yesterday and noticed a larger number than usual of snails that were upside down in the sand. I also noticed one hanging on the glass, but his body was all stretched out and his shell wasn't covering his flesh - almost as if he didn't have the strength to pull himself up anymore. I noticed another snail in a different part of the tank showing the same thing too, but on a rock. Then I found one snail and his body came out of the shell...he was dead.

I have no idea what's happening? I checked my water parameters and they were:
Temp: 78
Salinity: 1.025 (hydro)
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrate: 0-5ppm
Phosphate: 0.0
Calcium: 440ppm
Alk: 9

I've left my skimmer off for a few days to try to "muddy" the water because someone suggested my softies (specifically frogspawn) might like it better, but I have a hard time believing that this caused the snail decline. (those water parameters were taken last night after it was off for ~3days)

I also transfered my Mandarin over to the DT after undergoing a QT with copper (for the flame angel mostly), but I made absolutely sure none of the Cu treated water went into the tank. I'm positive none of it did.

So why are my snails all seemingly dying? I just added three new ones the other day, and two are fine but one is suffering the same symptoms. I righted all the snails onto a rock, but none of them have moved. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

[SecretiveFish]

What kind of snails? Personally, I can't keep turbo snails alive more than a couple days.... other types of snails no problem.

I would try running carbon if you are not already as it sounds like there is some type contaminant in your tank.

[CRC88]

The affected snails are my Turbo, Astreas, and Trochus. I have a few Nassarius but they seem totally fine.

I started running carbon last night. I wonder if this will help...

[philosophile]

Did you get ANY of the QT copper into your tank? that could affect the snails.

[Ron Reefman]

philosophile, try reading the entire post before you answer. The OP said, "I made absolutely sure none of the Cu treated water went into the tank. I'm positive none of it did."

CRC88, how many snails do you have? How long has your tank been set up? Do you have any algae that the snails eat? Most people start with more snails than they need to keep the bloom of green algae off the glass and LR. But after the tank settles down and filters start to work there is less and less for the snails to eat. They may just be starving.

I have a 20g QT and just put a purple tang in there for a 'time out' as he was chasing my new mueller's butterfly. In less than 2 days the glass was so green I could hardly see thru it. I pulled 3, just 3, astreas snails from my nem tank and they completely cleaned the glass in 2 days!

[WetShepherd]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

I pulled 3, just 3, astreas snails from my nem tank and they completely cleaned the glass in 2 days!

That's amazing - I have none in my 55 so I'll look into adding a few later today. In keeping with your note about diminishing food supply, I'll start with 3.

Regarding trouble with snails - +1 on the carbon. I had similar problems with my turbos and the first thing I did was bring my temp down from 80 to 78.0-78.5 (I know that's his range - don't smack me ron ). That helped them become more active, but I haven't lost one or even seen one in distress since I started the carbon.

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by WetShepherd

That's amazing - I have none in my 55 so I'll look into adding a few later today. In keeping with your note about diminishing food supply, I'll start with 3.

Regarding trouble with snails - +1 on the carbon. I had similar problems with my turbos and the first thing I did was bring my temp down from 80 to 78.0-78.5 (I know that's his range - don't smack me ron ). That helped them become more active, but I haven't lost one or even seen one in distress since I started the carbon.

Smack you?!? Hardly. You're one of the good ones on here. I only go after people who post up questions to the OP who has already answered the question in the opening post. It's not that they are dumb, or wrong, they just don't read enough.

BTW, I almost always bring home something every time we go snorkeling in the Keys. And a couple of snails just to keep the QT clean. Half the time I end up giving them to other club members who have algae issues. The Mueller's Butterfly was the first time I had just a fish in the QT. I wiped the glass every day for weeks. Then I had to put the Purple Tang in and thought maybe a few snails could clean it. I could only find 3 on the glass in my DT and Nem tank. I was shocked at how well they did ( 1-1.5" dia Astreas snails).

[hogsnapper7]

I had this issue once before too and it was due to too many snails not enough food, I'll stay posted to see what others say

[WetShepherd]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

Smack you?!? Hardly.

All in good fun
I went looking for Astreas but returned with a few Trochus as it's what they received today. They have some Astrea in the tank, but I like to go with what arrives on Fridays to keep it simple. These seem similar, but I prefer to keep the numbers small and variety high so I'll keep checking back. For some reason their water was at 1.030 so I'll be acclimating for a while.

Regarding the OP issue - if it's food related, would adding a few algae wafers suffice as a test of that, or is the 'form' to foreign for them to be likely to eat it? Anyone successfully fed turbos with 'processed' foods?

[pkirby]

Food is definitely a possibility...Assuming you have a low nutrient tank with almost no algae growth... Kind of surprising so many are dieing at the same time though? I'd lean towards copper, but you're indicating that you took precautions to prevent that. I'd run a polyfilter. Does more than carbon... I keep one in my tank just to be safe

[SushiGirl]

Did you have any kind of water movement going when you turned the skimmer off? What's your mag level?

[doctorgori]

I'd bet almost everyone who's had snails will agree: sometimes you might go through 1dz turbos before you get those 2-3 that just seem to live and adapt, and same is true but to a lot lesser degree with the astreas and trochus (the star astreas seem to be hardier than the cone astreas for me anyway) ....

...and then again, endorsing the starvation thing....like the above post alluded to; sometimes people put too many snails in, and they starve...

...and could also be a temp issue...I've noticed slower/zero fatalities after my tank has settled in and temps are 80<

[pmark]

Did the snails die before the skimmer was turned back on or after it was turned on?

[WetShepherd]

Originally Posted by doctorgori

I'd bet almost everyone who's had snails will agree: sometimes you might go through 1dz turbos before you get those 2-3 that just seem to live and adapt, and same is true but to a lot lesser degree with the astreas and trochus (the star astreas seem to be hardier than the cone astreas for me anyway) ....

...and could also be a temp issue...I've noticed slower/zero fatalities after my tank has settled in and temps are 80<

Yea I would agree that's not unlike my experience, although with smaller numbers (smaller tank). The combination of running carbon and bringing my temp down a bit seemed to turn things around, but it could be a coincidence as well.

I can only speak to the turbos - I just added my first Trochus team this week (don't see them here very often) and I have yet to add any Astreas.

[ccreef11]

Originally Posted by SecretiveFish

What kind of snails? Personally, I can't keep turbo snails alive more than a couple days.... other types of snails no problem.

same here, my turbos never make it more than a few days.

[Radix]

really? I have 3 turbos in a 10 gallon since day 1 and all are happy and healthy, had for around a month and a half

[SushiGirl]

We've had 3 (of 5 originally) turbos for a year now. We don't have any kind of algae in our tank except film algae, coralline, and a bit of green where we can't clean the glass, so all the snails pile on when I rubberband sheet algae to a rock once a week LOL. The turbos get the least of that, though. You can tell they look for it, but they're not very good at finding it. We lost one turbo who-knows-why early on, and another one didn't make it too long after our mag got too high one time. That was why I asked about the mag. Our tank runs about 79F.

[doctorgori]

Originally Posted by SushiGirl

We've had 3 (of 5 originally) turbos for a year now. We don't have any kind of algae in our tank except film algae, coralline, and a bit of green where we can't clean the glass, so all the snails pile on when I rubberband sheet algae to a rock once a week LOL. The turbos get the least of that, though. You can tell they look for it, but they're not very good at finding it. We lost one turbo who-knows-why early on, and another one didn't make it too long after our mag got too high one time. That was why I asked about the mag. Our tank runs about 79F.

what brand of sheet algae? I need to find something with a hungry tang...
Right now I got 3/4 box of "omega one" brand and I might as well be feeding "Soylent green" as nothing in my tank touches it

pardon the deviation...

[SushiGirl]

It's Rod's food that I won at NextWave earlier this year. Has red, green, and brown in it.

[hollister]

It could be food. A few snails should be fine though i would think. Alot of CUC in a new tank will do this.

Or a pistol shrimp. Do you hear any clicking or popping from the tank?

[CRC88]

Thanks for all the replies!! I was away for the weekend and just returned. Unfortunately the snails don't look like they're doing too well. The ones who had overturned on the sandbed on Thursday, and I placed them on the rock, have not moved an inch. One Turbo, two Astrea, and a Trochus. They still seem to be alive, because when I shook them, their bodies stayed in the shell (if they're dead they would have fallen out I'm assuming).

Besides the four who aren't doing too well, I have two large (1.25") and two small (0.5") Nasarius, and then one Trochus and an additional Astrea. That makes a total of six herbivores, and four carnivores. There's still some algae growing on the back glass, rocks, and sometimes the sand, but I will admit it's much less than during my initial algae bloom.

The skimmer was off for about a week and I didn't notice any problems. The water parameters above were taken after it was off for a week so the water quality was still good. In regards to Magnesium, I haven't bought a test kit for that yet because it's never really been a problem and it just seemed to be another thing to buy... I have no problem getting one if it's really that important.

The fish all seem happy. But my mushrooms have been closed up. Perhaps these problems are related? The tank has been seemingly stable for a while so maybe I'll just wait it out to see what happens... Thanks for all the advice!

[SushiGirl]

A mag test will only be important if you're dosing mag, sorry I should have added/asked that.
So did you have any other kind of water surface agitation when the skimmer was off?
The snails won't necessarily fall out of their shells when dead.

There's definitely something going on. I would test for ammonia the next few days, starting now since your shrooms are starting to look bad too. You'll probably get a spike if/when the snails are dead. I would have to suspect that some copper did manage to get into your tank or the skimmer being off for a week was a really bad idea. We have a 55 gallon softy tank and we leave the skimmer on 24/7. Our softies are extremely happy.

[doctorgori]

I've started my share of hobbyist in SW, and when investigating unusual die-offs and failures, I've always looked for external enviormental causes; not saying your house has nerve gas floating around, but I am saying that indoor pollutants are grossly overlooked as contributing to problems...

SW tanks tend to not have covers on them and all you need to do is look in your undersink kitchen/bathroom cabinet and inventory the pollutants that enter your tank (a 100% certainty that anything you spray enters the air and therefore "some" enters your tank)

Again, I'm not saying thats killing your snails, but running fresh carbon does seem to help snails

[WetShepherd]

How did you clean the fish of copper between the copper QT and the DT?

[CRC88]

To aclimate the fish, I used these massive (64oz) cups we have. I put him in one cup with about 3 inches of QT water in it. I added an inch worth of DT water every 5 mins or so until it was full. Then I dumped most of it down the drain until I was back to 3" of water. Repeated this process until the cup was full again. Then I got a fresh cup (never seen Copper) and poured the QT water out through a net, and placed the fish in the cup with new DT water. I let him sit in there for about 30 minutes and then poured him out through a net AGAIN, and let him sit in fresh DT water in another new cup. I figured the fish might have a slightly elevated level of Cu in the blood, so it would be worth letting him sit for a while so any would diffuse out (I don't actually think this happens, but didn't see the harm in doing it anyway).

All in all it took about a gallon of saltwater from my DT to complete this process. Once it came out of the tank to aclimate the fish, it only went down the drain. So I'm about as sure as anyone could possibly be that no copper got into my tank from the QT tank.

HOWEVER, I did do a water test for copper and it came back 0.5ppm. Suspected culprit: Brass Fittings that were on the pump / valves. I had purchased this tank off of Craigs List and pretty much set the pump up as he had it. I didn't pay any attention to the fittings until I read that the Brass could leech Copper, Zinc, or Nickel into water. Makes sense. I also re-did the plumbing about a week ago and perhaps when I redid some of the fittings, it either released some new shavings of metal, or just exposed new surfaces to leech the heavy metals into the water.

Either way, I started running about 1.5 cups of carbon in my sump to remove some of this. I actually think I'm going to pick up some Copper-zorb chips from my LFS because over in my QT I need to remove the Cu medication for a different problem I'm having, but could use the chips in the DT anyway...Fishkeeping had dominated my life the past four days. Not super pleased ;-/

So to remedy this problem, I replaced all the brass or metal fittings with PVC ones. The corals have opened up slightly and I'm confident the remaining snails will recover. Unfortunately, the snails on the rock were all dead. I picked one up and his body just sort of oozed out of the shell. I did an ammonia and nitrate test and got 0.0 and about 2ppm respectively.

Thanks for everyones help here! I don't think I would have picked up on the fittings without your help. Thanks!