Neptune Systems Apex PH Probe Problem

Kelocklear · 12/19/2011, 06:22 PM

Had some fellow reefers over yesterday and we were trying to figure out how moisture made its way into an Apex controller that sits in a place that there is no moisture (just dust). It appears that moisture somehow made it through the inside of the PH probe cable and into the controller. Even this is crazy to imagine, because the controller sits in sealed entertainment center under a TV (and beside a Wii, HTPC and stereo receiver) with the probe running first down and under a wall and then up and over the back of the aquarium to the side of the entertainment center. On top of this I have plastic and rubber rapped around the cables as they go under the wall. There is no sign of water on the outside of this cable or anywhere else but sure enough it is inside the coax plug of the probe. I was able to dry it out and clean it up a little on Saturday, and by today it had moisture in it again.
Unfortunately Neptune Systems claims the water damage is my fault and will not fix the controller.

Has anyone else here besides the few folks I trade emails with experienced this problem with Apex PH probes ?

There is definitely an instance of it occurring on another brand but just curious on the Neptune Systems stuff.

loudell · 12/19/2011, 07:05 PM

probably touched the BNC connector with wet fingers....

Kelocklear · 12/19/2011, 07:33 PM

I would have to touch a HTPC, a Wii and drip over a surge protector in order to do that. It is in a different place than under the aquarium just for the reason of keeping water away. Those systems are too freaking expensive. Of course that still did not keeping it from going bad. All the other connectors and the outside of the cable all have dust on them, so its pretty obvious there was no external water.

kurt_n · 12/19/2011, 11:35 PM

Was your probe fully submerged? Not taking sides, and I can't say I ever thought about this aspect of it, but maybe that's why they recommend to not submerge the probe completely. I've never heard of the problem, though, and have never seen it on mine - even though I fully submerged the probe. (Which I'm now going to change!)

Will they really not fix the controller? Or just not fix it for free, under warranty. Not sure why they wouldn't fix it, for a price.

Kelocklear · 12/20/2011, 08:06 AM

They will fix it almost for the price of ordering a new one but not quite the full price. I did have it fully submerged, but not very deep because of the distance from the controller to the tank. I am hoping to open the wire today and take a closer look at things. I will respond back again with my findings on it.
What really bothers me most on it I guess is that the chain of events are not quite right.
I called with a problem and they wanted an error/log dump. After seeing that they wanted it sent in. Of course I did not agree with this because of the elaborate setup I have controlling ATO, Calcium Reactor, 2 different EB8's running various equipment, and 2 sets of temp/PH probes. Who would want to just disable their aquarium setup to send this in for who knows how long. I was probably more a little too put off by that suggestion and got on the wrong side of the person doing warranty work. The problem I sent it in for was the PH and temp levels showing up way off the scale and causing other parts of my settings to obviously react badly (like overheating the tanks).
I sent the controller in and it was stated a 5v regulator was changed out and it was sent back. I plugged it in (in a very water secure place that it is permanently mounted) and it immediately started acting badly again.I messed with it for about 4 to 5 hours and unplugged it. It went back in the box it had been shipped in and they requested I send it back. Meanwhile I bought another Apex Jr to at least keep most of the equipment already attached to the PM1's, and EB8's going. It has had no problem at this point, so I am suspecting the PH probe that can not directly connect to the Apex jr.
When Neptune systems gets the controller back they say it has water damage everywhere. How it could get water damage in 4 to 5 hours of sitting in a dry secure mounted above the cable entry place is beyond me. I then take a look at the ph probes end connector and it did have moisture in it. I traced it back through the wall all the way to the probe itself and there is nothing but dust on the outside of the cable.
If the probe was indeed getting the inside of the controller wet I can't understand why they would have fixed it the first time and not seen the signs. They sent pics of salt creep inside the controller which for 4 to 5 hours of being connected to the ph probe that was potentially giving off the moisture it seems somewhat impossible.
I almost feel like this is a case of me torquing off the wrong guy on the other end and he has the power.
I should feel lucky they even decided to talk to me because as far as I can tell there is nowhere that states they even have a warranty on the Neptune Systems gear.

kurt_n · 12/20/2011, 10:04 AM

If I remember right, there's a 90 day warranty on Neptune probes and 1 year warranty on hardware. But don't quote me on that.

While I understand your frustration in being without a controller for a while, and running in to a problem that seems pretty improbable - the fact of the matter is that it happened. I don't find it impossible that water could creep through a cable, assuming it had a bad gland or bad potting. Capillary action could've wicked the water along the inside of the jacket into the controller. Hard to believe, but not impossible. And if that's truly the case, and your probe was submerged, I'm not seeing why Neptune should be footing the bill. As far as the cost to repair, seems like it's always nearly cheaper to buy new versus repair these days. I see that even with heavy industrial equipment that I work with. I don't like it, but that's just the way it works out.

I agree that its weird they didn't notice the salt when they opened it the first time, but stranger things happen... like water wicking through coax cables!

Kelocklear · 12/20/2011, 12:15 PM

If I am understanding right you are saying that since the Neptune Systems PH probe only had a 90 day warranty that its still kind of my fault that it destroyed the controller. I guess I can understand that after a fashion, just means I should never buy Neptune Systems equipment since they are built in such a manner as to have one of their own PH probes kill an expensive controller. I have been doing some research on Aquatronica and they are turning out to be a real competitor. It looks like they separated the connections out for the different devices so that a probe goes into an interface that then connects to the controller. This would make just an interface replacement if something crazy like this happened instead of taking out the whole controller.
Hopefully I can find someone interested in the other pieces of Neptune Systems stuff and I can make the change over. A few other local guys have started looking at the Aquatronica and really like the control and GUI interface.
I appreciate the response and I will stay away from the Neptune Systems probes and gear at this point. hahahahaha

Kelocklear · 12/20/2011, 12:15 PM

If I am understanding right you are saying that since the Neptune Systems PH probe only had a 90 day warranty that its still kind of my fault that it destroyed the controller. I guess I can understand that after a fashion, just means I should never buy Neptune Systems equipment since they are built in such a manner as to have one of their own PH probes kill an expensive controller. I have been doing some research on Aquatronica and they are turning out to be a real competitor. It looks like they separated the connections out for the different devices so that a probe goes into an interface that then connects to the controller. This would make just an interface replacement if something crazy like this happened instead of taking out the whole controller.
Hopefully I can find someone interested in the other pieces of Neptune Systems stuff and I can make the change over. A few other local guys have started looking at the Aquatronica and really like the control and GUI interface.
I appreciate the response and I will stay away from the Neptune Systems probes and gear at this point. hahahahaha

kurt_n · 12/20/2011, 01:06 PM

Not saying it's your fault. But I'm not really seeing how it's Neptune's fault either. They distinctly say not to submerge the probe in their literature. If a person decides to go against that advice - which many of us have - then they should realize any bad thing happening in not heeding that advice is not Neptune's problem.

If you could prove that the water came in through the cable, a company may have pity on you and take a loss on the repair in the name of "consumer relations" - even though the probe is out of warranty. But if you go at them with an attitude, I'm thinking their feelings of goodwill will be greatly diminished!

Is the controller itself over a year old? If so, then the whole thing is out of warranty anyway and this is all a mute/moot point - regardless of how it was damaged.

Kelocklear · 12/20/2011, 06:12 PM

Everything was purchased in April of this year but I am already past the point of being reasonable with them because they have flat out lied about what occurred and will not accept any other evidence on it. There is clearly no way for water to drip into the controller and they say that all the ports had water damage. I am still using all those same cables except the ph probe in a apex jr. Those cables are in perfect condition and no water has ever touched anything in there short of that ph probe. This does not matter to them and they are stating the whole thing was subjected to water in the 4 hour period of me trying to make it work after receiving it from the first repair.
I have no problem excepting that the ph probe caused the problem and it is out of warranty, but don't lie about it. That is a very easy way to prove that things are not on the up and up. I even offered to walk with a webcam or a local rep to show them there is no point where water can enter into the area of the controller.
My tanks are built into walls and the cabling all has to pass through ports at the base of the walls. There they have a rubber sheathing rapped around them and bundle tied, along with a plastic sheeting on the inside of the walls on the tank side to make sure the moisture never impacts the surrounding drywall. The impossibility of what they say occurred is really what has me miffed at this point.

Kelocklear · 12/20/2011, 06:25 PM

I am really complaining at this point and I did not come on here to do this. I need to replace some of my gear at this point and wanted to know if others might have seen similiar problems. I have found others that have seen problems like this with other brands at my local reefclub but wanted a broader audience.
Thanks for the responses and I hope you all enjoy your holidays.

12/19/2011, 06:22 PM	#1
Kelocklear Registered Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 7	Neptune Systems Apex PH Probe Problem Had some fellow reefers over yesterday and we were trying to figure out how moisture made its way into an Apex controller that sits in a place that there is no moisture (just dust). It appears that moisture somehow made it through the inside of the PH probe cable and into the controller. Even this is crazy to imagine, because the controller sits in sealed entertainment center under a TV (and beside a Wii, HTPC and stereo receiver) with the probe running first down and under a wall and then up and over the back of the aquarium to the side of the entertainment center. On top of this I have plastic and rubber rapped around the cables as they go under the wall. There is no sign of water on the outside of this cable or anywhere else but sure enough it is inside the coax plug of the probe. I was able to dry it out and clean it up a little on Saturday, and by today it had moisture in it again. Unfortunately Neptune Systems claims the water damage is my fault and will not fix the controller. Has anyone else here besides the few folks I trade emails with experienced this problem with Apex PH probes ? There is definitely an instance of it occurring on another brand but just curious on the Neptune Systems stuff.

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12/19/2011, 07:05 PM	#2
loudell Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 367	probably touched the BNC connector with wet fingers....

12/19/2011, 07:33 PM	#3
Kelocklear Registered Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 7	I would have to touch a HTPC, a Wii and drip over a surge protector in order to do that. It is in a different place than under the aquarium just for the reason of keeping water away. Those systems are too freaking expensive. Of course that still did not keeping it from going bad. All the other connectors and the outside of the cable all have dust on them, so its pretty obvious there was no external water.

12/19/2011, 11:35 PM	#4
kurt_n Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: WA Posts: 2,592	Was your probe fully submerged? Not taking sides, and I can't say I ever thought about this aspect of it, but maybe that's why they recommend to not submerge the probe completely. I've never heard of the problem, though, and have never seen it on mine - even though I fully submerged the probe. (Which I'm now going to change!) Will they really not fix the controller? Or just not fix it for free, under warranty. Not sure why they wouldn't fix it, for a price.

12/20/2011, 08:06 AM	#5
Kelocklear Registered Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 7	They will fix it almost for the price of ordering a new one but not quite the full price. I did have it fully submerged, but not very deep because of the distance from the controller to the tank. I am hoping to open the wire today and take a closer look at things. I will respond back again with my findings on it. What really bothers me most on it I guess is that the chain of events are not quite right. I called with a problem and they wanted an error/log dump. After seeing that they wanted it sent in. Of course I did not agree with this because of the elaborate setup I have controlling ATO, Calcium Reactor, 2 different EB8's running various equipment, and 2 sets of temp/PH probes. Who would want to just disable their aquarium setup to send this in for who knows how long. I was probably more a little too put off by that suggestion and got on the wrong side of the person doing warranty work. The problem I sent it in for was the PH and temp levels showing up way off the scale and causing other parts of my settings to obviously react badly (like overheating the tanks). I sent the controller in and it was stated a 5v regulator was changed out and it was sent back. I plugged it in (in a very water secure place that it is permanently mounted) and it immediately started acting badly again.I messed with it for about 4 to 5 hours and unplugged it. It went back in the box it had been shipped in and they requested I send it back. Meanwhile I bought another Apex Jr to at least keep most of the equipment already attached to the PM1's, and EB8's going. It has had no problem at this point, so I am suspecting the PH probe that can not directly connect to the Apex jr. When Neptune systems gets the controller back they say it has water damage everywhere. How it could get water damage in 4 to 5 hours of sitting in a dry secure mounted above the cable entry place is beyond me. I then take a look at the ph probes end connector and it did have moisture in it. I traced it back through the wall all the way to the probe itself and there is nothing but dust on the outside of the cable. If the probe was indeed getting the inside of the controller wet I can't understand why they would have fixed it the first time and not seen the signs. They sent pics of salt creep inside the controller which for 4 to 5 hours of being connected to the ph probe that was potentially giving off the moisture it seems somewhat impossible. I almost feel like this is a case of me torquing off the wrong guy on the other end and he has the power. I should feel lucky they even decided to talk to me because as far as I can tell there is nowhere that states they even have a warranty on the Neptune Systems gear.

12/20/2011, 10:04 AM	#6
kurt_n Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: WA Posts: 2,592	If I remember right, there's a 90 day warranty on Neptune probes and 1 year warranty on hardware. But don't quote me on that. While I understand your frustration in being without a controller for a while, and running in to a problem that seems pretty improbable - the fact of the matter is that it happened. I don't find it impossible that water could creep through a cable, assuming it had a bad gland or bad potting. Capillary action could've wicked the water along the inside of the jacket into the controller. Hard to believe, but not impossible. And if that's truly the case, and your probe was submerged, I'm not seeing why Neptune should be footing the bill. As far as the cost to repair, seems like it's always nearly cheaper to buy new versus repair these days. I see that even with heavy industrial equipment that I work with. I don't like it, but that's just the way it works out. I agree that its weird they didn't notice the salt when they opened it the first time, but stranger things happen... like water wicking through coax cables!

12/20/2011, 12:15 PM	#7
Kelocklear Registered Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 7	If I am understanding right you are saying that since the Neptune Systems PH probe only had a 90 day warranty that its still kind of my fault that it destroyed the controller. I guess I can understand that after a fashion, just means I should never buy Neptune Systems equipment since they are built in such a manner as to have one of their own PH probes kill an expensive controller. I have been doing some research on Aquatronica and they are turning out to be a real competitor. It looks like they separated the connections out for the different devices so that a probe goes into an interface that then connects to the controller. This would make just an interface replacement if something crazy like this happened instead of taking out the whole controller. Hopefully I can find someone interested in the other pieces of Neptune Systems stuff and I can make the change over. A few other local guys have started looking at the Aquatronica and really like the control and GUI interface. I appreciate the response and I will stay away from the Neptune Systems probes and gear at this point. hahahahaha

12/20/2011, 01:06 PM	#9
kurt_n Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: WA Posts: 2,592	Not saying it's your fault. But I'm not really seeing how it's Neptune's fault either. They distinctly say not to submerge the probe in their literature. If a person decides to go against that advice - which many of us have - then they should realize any bad thing happening in not heeding that advice is not Neptune's problem. If you could prove that the water came in through the cable, a company may have pity on you and take a loss on the repair in the name of "consumer relations" - even though the probe is out of warranty. But if you go at them with an attitude, I'm thinking their feelings of goodwill will be greatly diminished! Is the controller itself over a year old? If so, then the whole thing is out of warranty anyway and this is all a mute/moot point - regardless of how it was damaged.

12/20/2011, 06:12 PM	#10
Kelocklear Registered Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 7	Everything was purchased in April of this year but I am already past the point of being reasonable with them because they have flat out lied about what occurred and will not accept any other evidence on it. There is clearly no way for water to drip into the controller and they say that all the ports had water damage. I am still using all those same cables except the ph probe in a apex jr. Those cables are in perfect condition and no water has ever touched anything in there short of that ph probe. This does not matter to them and they are stating the whole thing was subjected to water in the 4 hour period of me trying to make it work after receiving it from the first repair. I have no problem excepting that the ph probe caused the problem and it is out of warranty, but don't lie about it. That is a very easy way to prove that things are not on the up and up. I even offered to walk with a webcam or a local rep to show them there is no point where water can enter into the area of the controller. My tanks are built into walls and the cabling all has to pass through ports at the base of the walls. There they have a rubber sheathing rapped around them and bundle tied, along with a plastic sheeting on the inside of the walls on the tank side to make sure the moisture never impacts the surrounding drywall. The impossibility of what they say occurred is really what has me miffed at this point.

12/20/2011, 06:25 PM	#11
Kelocklear Registered Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 7	I am really complaining at this point and I did not come on here to do this. I need to replace some of my gear at this point and wanted to know if others might have seen similiar problems. I have found others that have seen problems like this with other brands at my local reefclub but wanted a broader audience. Thanks for the responses and I hope you all enjoy your holidays.