words newbies need to learn

Sk8r · 01/20/2012, 12:49 PM

1. antibiotic. [greek: against-life]-- a medicine that kills bacteria. If your newly bought sponge and rubber gloves say they have antibiotic or bacteria-killing properties, don't use them in your tank.
2. gram negative and gram positive bacteria: this relates to a bit of lab science, how these bacteria sop up dye when on a slide...This wouldn't matter, except it relates to how they sop up other things, like antibiotics. Some antibiotics work only on gram negative bacteria; some on gram positives; and then there are 'broad-spectrum' antibiotics---that work on both, or either. The sand and rock bacteria in your tank, those good guys you cycled to let breed---are gram-negative. The way in which anti-red-slime treatments work is that they are a gram positive antibiotic, which kills off any gram positive bacteria and leaves the gram negatives alone... BUT... my own experience says they also do a number on the biodiversity of the tank at a microscopic level: after using it, I suffered a copepod die-off and had serious problems keeping my mandarin alive, so be advised. Copepods feed on algae, among other things, and you want them.
---And: postscript: not every antibiotic, works well on every disease: that's why your human doc bothers to diagnose your illness before giving you a very specific antibiotic. He knows whether your disease is gram-negative or positive, and also whether, say, tetracycline is going to make a dent in that particular bacteria---or not, even if it's the 'right' type. So do a little reading over in the disease forum before treating: ask what's actually CURED the disease---and for the love of your tank---do NOT dump any antibiotic into your display tank!

Do you get that you can save yourself a world of hurt (and give your fish a safer, nicer start) if you quarantine and never end up with a bad bacteria (or crawly parasite) loose in your display tank? Note I say 'quarantine.' Don't treat well fish. Just observe: sickness tends to pop up a few days after the excitement of being bagged and transported and put in new water---the same way you know that once finals week is over and the adrenaline sinks, you're going to catch whatever's going around and be sick for your vacation. If your fish is in a nice separate tank, you can deal with it; if he's 'sneezed' into your tank---your display tank now has some bad bacteria (or a hitchhiker) that you don't want, and it's impossible to ask the newcomers for a proof of residency, eh?

3. kalk---a cheap source of calcium/buffer for your tank, if you have stony corals, and if they are starting to need more dosing than you can sanely provide. Kalk drip is usually enough for tanks up to 100 gallons. Above that a calcium reactor is the choice.

4. GFO, or granulated ferrous oxide (a granular iron/oxygen) binds up phosphate. In a GFO reactor, it will suck all the phosphate out of your tank and make it SO green-free it may starve your algae-eating blennies, so don't go that far if you have blennies. You may need to just scrape a bit. But it is a cure for hair algae problems, or any sort of green algae.

Sk8r · 01/20/2012, 05:44 PM

5. parasite versus bacterial infection: a bacterium is a single-celled organism that gets into the tissue of the fish and is treatable by an antibiotic: see item 1. A parasite is a multicelled organism that does the same---sometimes with legs, sometimes with mouths, sometimes so tiny you can't see THEM without a microscope, but that causes an effect that's pretty obvious. Ich is a prime example. You can't see the actual organism: what you see is a pimple it caused. When the pimples go away, it means it burst and the actual parasites are headed for your sandbed to grow up and come back in the swimming part of the life cycle to attack more fish.

If you've got a bacterial infection (fin rot is an example) you use an antibiotic. Copper won't work on it, and will probably kill the fish, which is already sick.

If you've got a parasite (ich, flukes, bad sort of amphipod [most are good]) an antibiotic won't work on them---but either hyposalinity [go to the Disease forum] or copper [cupramine] may. Hypo salinity lowers the salinity of the water so the parasite's life cycle can't complete. Copper relies on the little parasite's hyper lifestyle to get it to absorb a lethal amount of copper before your fish does. If you detect a bias toward hypo as a treatment you'd be right. BUT---you must be spot-on accurate in salinity to do hypo correctly; and an autotopoff on the treatment tank is close to a necessity.

The way to avoid parasites is to be careful to quarantine all newcomer fish (not invertebrates) and dip all corals (not fish). Corals have their own set of predators, which do not attack fish. Just other corals.

Just understand that you should NEVER combine copper with an antibiotic---it is critical that you correctly diagnose whether you've got a bacterial problem or a parasite, ergo what treatment to use, because once you've messed up your hospital tank water with the wrong thing, you've lost really valuable time.

Understand that copper is poisonous. And hyposalinity likewise hopes to make survival impossible for the parasite, taking advantage of the fact fish tolerate hypo better than bugs do. Neither treatment will work on a bacterial infection, and will make matters worse, particularly in the case of copper.

zigzag1 · 01/20/2012, 07:12 PM

Zooxanthellae and Allelopathy are two I would add! Oh, and Molybdenum - dunno why, I just like saying that word.

ibefishy · 01/20/2012, 07:27 PM

patience- take your time, dont rush.

Sk8r · 01/20/2012, 08:31 PM

Zooxanthellae---the 'brown poop' that mushrooms and corals may exude --- which is the expulsion of photosynthizing cells during a lighting crisis, when a coral gets exposed to too much light. Not a good thing to happen. Always start a speciman low in the tank and raise it slowly, being alert for its happiness --- it should be fully extended, happy in its look. If it closes up after raising it, back it down again.

Allelopathy: some corals, particularly softies, exude a keep-away chemical---what we used to call 'leather wars,' ---no big problem in a big ocean, but in a recirculating tank---goes-around comes-around and causes a flywheel effect, mass coral hysteria. To stop this once started---run carbon. This absorbs organics like the nasty-chemical.

Molybdenum---besides a fun word to say---one of many trace elements in your salt mix. Notice it's called not just salt, but salt MIX: it's an ocean in a sack, with all the traces you need, in balance. Note that cheaper salt mixes may scant the coral-feeding elements that fish don't need that much of. These mixes are intended for fish-only tanks. Reefing salt costs a little more, and contains a higher level of magnesium and calcium.

larrypoe · 01/20/2012, 08:43 PM

tetracycline, doxycycline, and Imasol are evil evil drugs :/...in mammals (like humans) some of there side effects are worse than the disease there used to treat............things like eroding enamel off your teeth..........not to mention kick the snot out of your imune system while taking them..........some people I know who have had to use them for things like Rocky Mountian Spotted Fever, Irlickia, ect..........swear that for years after they still have side effects. ( with me as one of those who have had the treatments and after effects)

I had a very expensive hound once who caught RMSF and Irlickia (comes from ticks....protozoan who lives part of its life cycle in squirrels and other rodents and is then passed to others by the ticks who have infested those rodents) he had 30days of tetracycline (with no response) then 2 weeks of doxycycline (no response) then 2 shots of Imasol (which finaly "cured" him) in the meen time, he caught a secondary infection in his ears(mersa) from the lowered imune system (from the treatments) which 2 different State Vet Schools failed to cure....and was later the cause of his death. He was a world hunt finalist before, and never the same after the treatments. I also came down with RMSF

They have there uses ( I used them on a corporate hog farm for years) just please dont use them lightly.

all that being said......Im pretty lucky in the fact that past work has offered me the chance to talk with some of the best in the business where med companys are conserned ( like the owner of intervet)..........and a pretty good handle on pathogens.

sleepydoc · 01/20/2012, 08:45 PM

Something to realize any time you are treating is the concept of relative toxicity. Whether it is with copper, an antibiotic, or salinity, you are using something that is toxic to your fish, just more toxic to the bacteria/parasite you are trying to kill.

rovster · 01/20/2012, 09:35 PM

Tetracycline does not erode the enamel off your teeth. Just thought I'd clear that up.....

Continue.................

rovster · 01/20/2012, 09:36 PM

Double post

john6412 · 01/20/2012, 09:46 PM

Tetracycline can stain your teeth if it's taken during childhood when your teeth are developing, though. That's why we don't use in children unless it's the only option.

Reefing Newbie · 01/20/2012, 09:54 PM

Tetracycline and doxycycline are what I have been prescribed to use by my doctor for my acne(I am 16). I haven't had any side effects with it yet. I was first given the doxycycline. I used that for a year and it did not work. I went back in and was prescribed tetracycline, which I have used for 6 months now. I now will probably have to go to a dermatologist to get stronger stuff.

Back on topic- These words are very important. You must also keep in mind that keeping a reef tank is like being a chemist and marine biologist at the same time. So these big and fun to say words mean a lot.

01/20/2012, 12:49 PM	#1
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	words newbies need to learn 1. antibiotic. [greek: against-life]-- a medicine that kills bacteria. If your newly bought sponge and rubber gloves say they have antibiotic or bacteria-killing properties, don't use them in your tank. 2. gram negative and gram positive bacteria: this relates to a bit of lab science, how these bacteria sop up dye when on a slide...This wouldn't matter, except it relates to how they sop up other things, like antibiotics. Some antibiotics work only on gram negative bacteria; some on gram positives; and then there are 'broad-spectrum' antibiotics---that work on both, or either. The sand and rock bacteria in your tank, those good guys you cycled to let breed---are gram-negative. The way in which anti-red-slime treatments work is that they are a gram positive antibiotic, which kills off any gram positive bacteria and leaves the gram negatives alone... BUT... my own experience says they also do a number on the biodiversity of the tank at a microscopic level: after using it, I suffered a copepod die-off and had serious problems keeping my mandarin alive, so be advised. Copepods feed on algae, among other things, and you want them. ---And: postscript: not every antibiotic, works well on every disease: that's why your human doc bothers to diagnose your illness before giving you a very specific antibiotic. He knows whether your disease is gram-negative or positive, and also whether, say, tetracycline is going to make a dent in that particular bacteria---or not, even if it's the 'right' type. So do a little reading over in the disease forum before treating: ask what's actually CURED the disease---and for the love of your tank---do NOT dump any antibiotic into your display tank! Do you get that you can save yourself a world of hurt (and give your fish a safer, nicer start) if you quarantine and never end up with a bad bacteria (or crawly parasite) loose in your display tank? Note I say 'quarantine.' Don't treat well fish. Just observe: sickness tends to pop up a few days after the excitement of being bagged and transported and put in new water---the same way you know that once finals week is over and the adrenaline sinks, you're going to catch whatever's going around and be sick for your vacation. If your fish is in a nice separate tank, you can deal with it; if he's 'sneezed' into your tank---your display tank now has some bad bacteria (or a hitchhiker) that you don't want, and it's impossible to ask the newcomers for a proof of residency, eh? 3. kalk---a cheap source of calcium/buffer for your tank, if you have stony corals, and if they are starting to need more dosing than you can sanely provide. Kalk drip is usually enough for tanks up to 100 gallons. Above that a calcium reactor is the choice. 4. GFO, or granulated ferrous oxide (a granular iron/oxygen) binds up phosphate. In a GFO reactor, it will suck all the phosphate out of your tank and make it SO green-free it may starve your algae-eating blennies, so don't go that far if you have blennies. You may need to just scrape a bit. But it is a cure for hair algae problems, or any sort of green algae. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%. Last edited by Sk8r; 01/20/2012 at 01:04 PM.

01/20/2012, 05:44 PM	#2
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	5. parasite versus bacterial infection: a bacterium is a single-celled organism that gets into the tissue of the fish and is treatable by an antibiotic: see item 1. A parasite is a multicelled organism that does the same---sometimes with legs, sometimes with mouths, sometimes so tiny you can't see THEM without a microscope, but that causes an effect that's pretty obvious. Ich is a prime example. You can't see the actual organism: what you see is a pimple it caused. When the pimples go away, it means it burst and the actual parasites are headed for your sandbed to grow up and come back in the swimming part of the life cycle to attack more fish. If you've got a bacterial infection (fin rot is an example) you use an antibiotic. Copper won't work on it, and will probably kill the fish, which is already sick. If you've got a parasite (ich, flukes, bad sort of amphipod [most are good]) an antibiotic won't work on them---but either hyposalinity [go to the Disease forum] or copper [cupramine] may. Hypo salinity lowers the salinity of the water so the parasite's life cycle can't complete. Copper relies on the little parasite's hyper lifestyle to get it to absorb a lethal amount of copper before your fish does. If you detect a bias toward hypo as a treatment you'd be right. BUT---you must be spot-on accurate in salinity to do hypo correctly; and an autotopoff on the treatment tank is close to a necessity. The way to avoid parasites is to be careful to quarantine all newcomer fish (not invertebrates) and dip all corals (not fish). Corals have their own set of predators, which do not attack fish. Just other corals. Just understand that you should NEVER combine copper with an antibiotic---it is critical that you correctly diagnose whether you've got a bacterial problem or a parasite, ergo what treatment to use, because once you've messed up your hospital tank water with the wrong thing, you've lost really valuable time. Understand that copper is poisonous. And hyposalinity likewise hopes to make survival impossible for the parasite, taking advantage of the fact fish tolerate hypo better than bugs do. Neither treatment will work on a bacterial infection, and will make matters worse, particularly in the case of copper. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

01/20/2012, 07:12 PM	#3
zigzag1 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Anderson, Indiana Posts: 1,276	Zooxanthellae and Allelopathy are two I would add! Oh, and Molybdenum - dunno why, I just like saying that word. __________________ :beer: Mixed Reef, started 10/2004: 6' BB 125g DT, 100lbs LR, 40g sump, Dual Ehiem 1000 returns, Eshopps dual overflow, JBJ ATO, Vertex IN-180, PM Ca reactor, 250w MH w/VHO Actinic, AC3 w/Aquasurf, Tunze 6105 pair & 40B frag tank 8 Fish, 20+ corals, shrimp, snails, worms, bugs, etc.

01/20/2012, 08:31 PM	#5
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Zooxanthellae---the 'brown poop' that mushrooms and corals may exude --- which is the expulsion of photosynthizing cells during a lighting crisis, when a coral gets exposed to too much light. Not a good thing to happen. Always start a speciman low in the tank and raise it slowly, being alert for its happiness --- it should be fully extended, happy in its look. If it closes up after raising it, back it down again. Allelopathy: some corals, particularly softies, exude a keep-away chemical---what we used to call 'leather wars,' ---no big problem in a big ocean, but in a recirculating tank---goes-around comes-around and causes a flywheel effect, mass coral hysteria. To stop this once started---run carbon. This absorbs organics like the nasty-chemical. Molybdenum---besides a fun word to say---one of many trace elements in your salt mix. Notice it's called not just salt, but salt MIX: it's an ocean in a sack, with all the traces you need, in balance. Note that cheaper salt mixes may scant the coral-feeding elements that fish don't need that much of. These mixes are intended for fish-only tanks. Reefing salt costs a little more, and contains a higher level of magnesium and calcium. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

01/20/2012, 09:46 PM	#10
john6412 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 54	Tetracycline can stain your teeth if it's taken during childhood when your teeth are developing, though. That's why we don't use in children unless it's the only option. __________________ -John RSM 250 Current Tank Info: RSM 250

01/20/2012, 07:27 PM	#4
ibefishy Moved On Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Grover Beach, California Posts: 307	patience- take your time, dont rush.

01/20/2012, 08:43 PM	#6
larrypoe Registered Member. Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 108	tetracycline, doxycycline, and Imasol are evil evil drugs :/...in mammals (like humans) some of there side effects are worse than the disease there used to treat............things like eroding enamel off your teeth..........not to mention kick the snot out of your imune system while taking them..........some people I know who have had to use them for things like Rocky Mountian Spotted Fever, Irlickia, ect..........swear that for years after they still have side effects. ( with me as one of those who have had the treatments and after effects) I had a very expensive hound once who caught RMSF and Irlickia (comes from ticks....protozoan who lives part of its life cycle in squirrels and other rodents and is then passed to others by the ticks who have infested those rodents) he had 30days of tetracycline (with no response) then 2 weeks of doxycycline (no response) then 2 shots of Imasol (which finaly "cured" him) in the meen time, he caught a secondary infection in his ears(mersa) from the lowered imune system (from the treatments) which 2 different State Vet Schools failed to cure....and was later the cause of his death. He was a world hunt finalist before, and never the same after the treatments. I also came down with RMSF They have there uses ( I used them on a corporate hog farm for years) just please dont use them lightly. all that being said......Im pretty lucky in the fact that past work has offered me the chance to talk with some of the best in the business where med companys are conserned ( like the owner of intervet)..........and a pretty good handle on pathogens.

01/20/2012, 08:45 PM	#7
sleepydoc Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3,907	Something to realize any time you are treating is the concept of relative toxicity. Whether it is with copper, an antibiotic, or salinity, you are using something that is toxic to your fish, just more toxic to the bacteria/parasite you are trying to kill.

01/20/2012, 09:35 PM	#8
rovster Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Miramar, FL Posts: 7,518	Tetracycline does not erode the enamel off your teeth. Just thought I'd clear that up..... Continue.................

01/20/2012, 09:36 PM	#9
rovster Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Miramar, FL Posts: 7,518	Double post

01/20/2012, 09:54 PM	#11
Reefing Newbie Registered Member. Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,435	Tetracycline and doxycycline are what I have been prescribed to use by my doctor for my acne(I am 16). I haven't had any side effects with it yet. I was first given the doxycycline. I used that for a year and it did not work. I went back in and was prescribed tetracycline, which I have used for 6 months now. I now will probably have to go to a dermatologist to get stronger stuff. Back on topic- These words are very important. You must also keep in mind that keeping a reef tank is like being a chemist and marine biologist at the same time. So these big and fun to say words mean a lot.