muriatic acid wash

[Psirex]

Can someone tell me how long to let the rocks sit in the acid solution? I am considering doing this to some LR to stop\help with a phosphate leeching issue...

[jack.lai.83]

I did a 10:1 ratio of water to muriatic acid and let the rock fizz for about 10-15 minutes. Mine was dry rock and by 15 minutes, most of the crusted on organics had been removed so I pulled my rocks out. Hope that helps!

[James77]

I had done even a lesser ratio of muriatic acid than jack above did, but for maybe an hour. It burned off a noticeable amount of skeleton, maybe 1-1.5 mm in some areas. Keep in mind that it may not solve your leaching PO4 problem, since it may just expose more area that has PO4.

[brandon429]

How does this help at all when we put the rock right back in a phosphate containing solution? Won't that re coat the clean margins again?

[Psirex]

Originally Posted by James77

I had done even a lesser ratio of muriatic acid than jack above did, but for maybe an hour. It burned off a noticeable amount of skeleton, maybe 1-1.5 mm in some areas. Keep in mind that it may not solve your leaching PO4 problem, since it may just expose more area that has PO4.

Really hadn't considered that....

Originally Posted by brandon429

How does this help at all when we put the rock right back in a phosphate containing solution? Won't that re coat the clean margins again?

Not sure what you mean

[brandon429]

If you burn off a clean outer layer that had phosphate, and place it back in a tank, won't that layer just bind new phosphate from the water column

[Psirex]

Originally Posted by brandon429

If you burn off a clean outer layer that had phosphate, and place it back in a tank, won't that layer just bind new phosphate from the water column

My thoughts were to remove the layer leeching phos back into the system figuring that it would take longer for it to bind to the rock then it would for it to be remove from the water column via filtration. Hence limiting the rocks from leeching back into the system.

Is there away to "pull' the phosphates from the rocks altogether?

[philosophile]

I think it does two things... It eliminates a source of phosphates, like what others said, and it kills algae roots. Scrubbing doesn't really get at the "roots" of hair algae, so if they are given the opportunity to grow again they will.

I left some rocks in overnight and others just for about an hour. The ones I left overnight ended up looking a little more jaggy. Some of it was quite sharp. So I would leave them in for a couple of hours and then rinse. You can always do another bath if you're not satisfied. If you have tons of patience, I'd just use enough acid to get he rocks to start fizzing and repeat until satisfied.

[Psirex]

Originally Posted by philosophile

I think it does two things... It eliminates a source of phosphates, like what others said, and it kills algae roots. Scrubbing doesn't really get at the "roots" of hair algae, so if they are given the opportunity to grow again they will.

I left some rocks in overnight and others just for about an hour. The ones I left overnight ended up looking a little more jaggy. Some of it was quite sharp. So I would leave them in for a couple of hours and then rinse. You can always do another bath if you're not satisfied. If you have tons of patience, I'd just use enough acid to get he rocks to start fizzing and repeat until satisfied.

How long do I wait\rinse before putting back in to system?

[sasharotty]

Don't mean to hijack your thread op but does brs pukani or reef saver need to be stripped with an acid bath? Or can you accomplish it with something less abrasive like bleach or I even read about some people using peroxide?

[Psirex]

Originally Posted by sasharotty

Don't mean to hijack your thread op but does brs pukani or reef saver need to be stripped with an acid bath? Or can you accomplish it with something less abrasive like bleach or I even read about some people using peroxide?

No problem - I was wondering about other methods as well - I would like to just pull the phos from the rock but not sure if that is possible....

[Psirex]

bump - looking for a little more input

[brandon429]

I do not believe peroxide would serve the same function, its not immediately degradative to rock vs strong acid and the goal of acid bathing is to melt off outer layer bound w peroxide, so the theory goes. We have no knowledge on how deep the binding runs into the rock, perhaps the entire rock is an equal source?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by Psirex

No problem - I was wondering about other methods as well - I would like to just pull the phos from the rock but not sure if that is possible....

The only methods to remove phosphate that is bound into CaCO3 is to quickly dissolve away the outer layer of rock using acid, or to slowly allow the phosphate to come off into water that has low phosphate levels.

If choosing the latter, note that you will not remove other undesirable stuff (like organics) and you will need to keep the phosphate very low in the water, either through very frequent changes, or by using something like GFO or lanthanum to take it out of solution as it dissolves off the rock.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by sasharotty

Don't mean to hijack your thread op but does brs pukani or reef saver need to be stripped with an acid bath? Or can you accomplish it with something less abrasive like bleach or I even read about some people using peroxide?

Bleach is useful for removing organic matter, but not phosphate directly bound to calcium carbonate. peroxide may remove some organics, like bleach, but less effectively, and won't impact directly bound phosphate.

Depending on the problem(s) with the rock, I'd use bleach, acid, or both as separate stages (definitely not together, that makes a toxic gas).

[Alex T.]

^^^^what he said...

Seriously though, I did everything. I read threads from many people that tried putting it in a tub and simply changing the water, adding GFO and leaving it in the dark for months, only to have hair algae, phosphates, aiptasia and valonia return. I'm not that patient. I pulled 1oo pounds of liverock from my previous tank, scrubbed off what I could, soaked it in a 10:1 water and muriatic acid solution. Then, after it finished fizzing out all the brown gunk for 20 minutes (oh my God you'll be amazed what comes out) I let it dry for a couple days and then put it in a 10:1 bleach and water solution overnight. A little more organic matter floated to the surface. I then dipped it in fresh RO water and left it in a newspaper lined cardboard box for two and half months. After that I filled up a tub of saltwater, heated it to 78 degrees added a powerhead with no light, Seachem Prime to remove any residual chlorine that may have been left, and dosed MB7 daily for a week as my new tank was filling. I bought and rinsed some "dead" sand, added it to the display and then added the rock from the mixing tub.

It's been running for about a week now, and I'm still adding the daily dosage for a new tank of MB7. The rocks are white and super clean. I have yet to register any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, and don't know that I will. However, I'm playing it safe and letting it run for a few more weeks just to see. I may add a raw shrimp to see if it spikes ammonia, however I'm pretty confident that the MB7 is kicking the biological filter into overdrive.

HTH

[Psirex]

Originally Posted by Alex T.

^^^^what he said...

Seriously though, I did everything. I read threads from many people that tried putting it in a tub and simply changing the water, adding GFO and leaving it in the dark for months, only to have hair algae, phosphates, aiptasia and valonia return. I'm not that patient. I pulled 1oo pounds of liverock from my previous tank, scrubbed off what I could, soaked it in a 10:1 water and muriatic acid solution. Then, after it finished fizzing out all the brown gunk for 20 minutes (oh my God you'll be amazed what comes out) I let it dry for a couple days and then put it in a 10:1 bleach and water solution overnight. A little more organic matter floated to the surface. I then dipped it in fresh RO water and left it in a newspaper lined cardboard box for two and half months. After that I filled up a tub of saltwater, heated it to 78 degrees added a powerhead with no light, Seachem Prime to remove any residual chlorine that may have been left, and dosed MB7 daily for a week as my new tank was filling. I bought and rinsed some "dead" sand, added it to the display and then added the rock from the mixing tub.

It's been running for about a week now, and I'm still adding the daily dosage for a new tank of MB7. The rocks are white and super clean. I have yet to register any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, and don't know that I will. However, I'm playing it safe and letting it run for a few more weeks just to see. I may add a raw shrimp to see if it spikes ammonia, however I'm pretty confident that the MB7 is kicking the biological filter into overdrive.

HTH

Why leave it in the box? Do I need to do the bleach water solution after the acid bath - won't that kill everything on the rock?

And how long do I let it rinse after the acid bath?

When can I add this to a live tank?

Will it cause a cycle if I have other LR\Bio-BAlls and DBS already in the tank?

Some many questions (sorry)

[NirvanaFan]

Take a look through this thread on our local club forum. Enjoy!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1914426

[Alex T.]

Originally Posted by Psirex

Why leave it in the box? Do I need to do the bleach water solution after the acid bath - won't that kill everything on the rock?

And how long do I let it rinse after the acid bath?

When can I add this to a live tank?

Will it cause a cycle if I have other LR\Bio-BAlls and DBS already in the tank?

Some many questions (sorry)

I'm just telling you what I did, not what is standard operating procedure. We're all sort of "working without a net" here.

To answer your questions:

1. I believe after the acid has finished bubbling it has pretty much burned away. I used garden gloves to remove the rocks. If it can etch the outer surface of live rock then I'm pretty sure it could do some damage to a bare hand, I rinsed them off with ro water. No sense getting rid of all that phosphate only to have it rinsed off with phosphate ridden tap water. I wash nothing in my tank with tapwater anymore when cleaning and descaling. I would let it dry completely before I used it.

2. I would personally not add it to an established tank until it was completely dry. If you are using bleach too (or solely), I would rinse and soak in a dechlorinator like Prime if I was going to rush it into an established tank. And please don't introduce any acid to bleach. I'll leave the chemical explanation up to Randy...but it's not good.

3. I don't know how it could cause a cycle if there's nothing alive on it that would die off. I'm no expert, but I would assume it would colonize rather quickly with beneficial bacteria and other little critters if re-introduced to an established system.

I don't think the cardboard box lined with newspaper is essential.
You could use a Rubbermaid tote, or throw them out on the deck to dry out. Whatever floats your boat man. It's your party!

I would actually be more concerned about introducing the bleached rocks too swiftly than those that were acid washed. The bleach can linger, and the smell of chlorine was on my rocks for weeks. Even with a dechlorinator, my rock was so porous that I wasn't comfortable sticking it in the tank too soon. In all seriousness, acid and bleach are extremely dangerous to our little eco-systems, so the more caution that is exercised the better.

Personally, I don't know that I would do this to just a few rocks in an established aquarium. The reason to do this is to try and 100% eradicate all organic matter (unwanted algae, pests, phosphate bound up) so that you can start fresh. Sticking nice clean rocks next to other rocks that could quickly load them up with the same junk you were trying to get rid of in the first place seems sort of counterproductive to me. Some people kept telling me to put at least 1 piece of live rock in my system to help colonize. I'm not doing it. I'll wait it out and let it happen naturally with a little help from the MB7.

[Psirex]

I plan on doing it to all of my old rocks but I also have some rocks that have been curing in a tank for about 2 months now with a PH, ghost feeding and some added live bacteria to kick start the cycle which is now complete...

[Psirex]

I will be re-introducing the rocks back to the system tonight....

[TeslaReef]

I dipped about 80lbs of pukani as well as some branch and shelf in a Lanthanum chloride (PhosFree from a pool supplier) solution but the gunk was pretty bad and not getting any better after a week of processing/water changing.

Therefore I dipped the rocks in a 10:1 muriatic acid bath. I then placed them in 10:1 bleach solution overnight. Then I used Prime dechlorinator for about three days. All this was done with tap water.

When I pulled the rock out of the acid bath, it had a noticeable loss of outer layer. It looks like about 1mm dissolved. The rock was also covered in a funky dark green film. After the bleach dip, the green film was all gone and the rock looks great. I am currently drying it all out. It's been drying for about 2 weeks now. I ordered and received another 50 lbs and plan to do the same. The gunk on these rocks is pretty bad but the rocks are amazing and makes it worth it to avoid all the problems people sometimes report.

After the rocks have dried for a couple more weeks I plan to start curing in SW and use prime again like stated earlier in this thread to make sure there is no more residual bleach. I ordered a Hanna 736 (based on this thread) and it should be here soon so I'll be checking the phosphates. I hope they are low after all this trouble.

A cool side effect is that, the dissolving of the outer layer makes the rocks even more porous and nicer looking. Although, you do lose a little bit of rock in the process. I would definitely do this again though.

Hope this helps, just my results so far. Great thread guys.

Phillip