90g w/ Apex programing, chiller & setup questions

TMarshMan · 06/03/2012, 10:07 PM

Hello Reefers!
I am hoping this is not too long or too detailed or have too many various questions. I am posting under “Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment” because this seems to be the most logical fit.
ReefCentral Admins: please let me know if this needs to be placed somewhere else, broken up or otherwise violates the blog rules.

I am new and old to the hobby. I had a 125g about 15 years ago with an old-school “wet-dry”. I then tool a SW hiatus and went FW only. I just jumped back in to SW and reef in the last three months. (Wow, have some things changed and have some things stayed exactly the same!)

So, as I stated above, I have jumped back in. I purchased a new tank and a bunch of new and used equipment. I also “inherited” a large volume of rock (mixed variety), sand and creatures. I am not too concerned about the mix right now. I will, in time determine what stays or goes (or, more accurately, the reef will decide).

Ok, enough with the intro – here is the meat of the posting:

My tank specs:
90g with internal overflow & 40g sump
Lighting system is new Hamilton Technology 4’ Cebu Sun (w/ 2x 250W 14K MH, and 4x 54W T5, and LED moon lights and cooling fans. I have the lights behind a sheet of glass. I understand this reduces PAR, but pretty sure I have PAR to spare, and worth the protection from SW)

APEX Aquacontroller with two EB8’s (EB8_3 & EB8_4), temp probe and a PH probe

EB8_3 Outlet mapping:
(1=Return pump, 2=Skimmer, 3=Powerheads, 4=ATO, 5=Heaters, 6=Chiller Pump, 7=Chiller, 8=Wireless Bridge)

EB8_3 (3_1) – “ReturnPump”
Fallback ON
Set ON

EB8_3 (3_2) – “Skimmer” (AquaEuro 250 skimmer – two pump model)
Fallback ON
Set ON
If Outlet MH-Right = ON Then OFF
If Outlet MH-Left = ON Then OFF
Notes: Both pumps on a single power strip. Set to turn off skimmer to reduce load and heat when MH’s are on.

EB8_3 (3_3) – “PowerHeads” Power heads x3
Fallback ON
Set ON
If Temp > 85.0 Then OFF
Notes: All 3 power heads on a single power-strip. Set to turn off power heads to reduce heat, if needed (never happened yet).

EB8_3 (3_4) – “ATO” JBL Auto Top Off
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Time 06:00 to 06:01 Then ON
If Time 20:00 to 20:01 Then ON
Notes: I set the two times so that the ATO only turns on when someone is home and awake.

EB8_3 (3_5) – “Heaters” 2x 200w heaters
Fallback OFF
If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
If Temp > 79.0 Then OFF
Defer 010:00 Then ON Defer 010:00 Then OFF
Notes: Both heaters on a single power-strip. Both heaters are located in the sump where water enters from overflow (first baffle). Both heaters set to “full on” (Temp all the way up to allow Apex to control).

EB8_3 (3_6) – “ChillerPump” Chiller pump
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Outlet Chiller = ON Then ON

EB8_3 (3_7) – “Chiller” JBL Arctica DBA-075 chiller
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Temp < 78.0 Then OFF
If Temp > 80.0 Then ON
Defer 010:00 Then OFF
Defer 010:00 Then ON

EB8_3 (3_8) – “Netgear” Netgear wireless bridge
Fallback ON
Set ON
Notes: Used to connect APEX to home network. No reason that it is on the EB8_3 other than needing an outlet

EB8_4 Outlet mapping:
(1=Metal Halide (right side of tank), 2=Metal Halide (left side of tank), 3=Light Hood Fans, 4=Sump Work Light, 5=T5 set 1, 6=T5 set 2, 7=Open, 8=LED Moon lights)

EB8_4 (4_1) – “MH-Right” 250W Metal Halide
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 180/-240 Then ON
If Temp > 83.0 Then OFF
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

EB8_4 (4_2) – “MH-Left” 250W Metal Halide
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 240/-180 Then ON
If Temp > 84.0 Then OFF
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

EB8_4 (4_3) – “LightFan” Light Hood fans x2
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Outlet T5-1 = ON Then ON
If Outlet T5-2 = ON Then ON
If Outlet MH-Right = ON
Then ON If Outlet MH-Left = ON Then ON
Defer 010:00 Then OFF

EB8_4 (4_4) – “SumpLight” Work light for sump
Fallback OFF
Set OFF

EB8_4 (4_5) – “T5-1” 54W T5 x2
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 060/-120 Then ON
If Temp > 86.0 Then OFF

EB8_4 (4_6) – “T5-2” 54W T5 x2
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Sun 120/-060 Then ON
If Temp > 86.0 Then OFF

EB8_4 (4_7) – “Open” Unused
Fallback OFF
Set OFF

EB8_4 (4_8) – “LED (Moon)” LED Moon lights
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Moon 000/000 Then ON
If Outlet T5-1 = ON Then OFF
If Outlet T5-2 = ON Then OFF

Other details:
The sump is about ¼ full when all pumps and skimmer are running and about 1/2 full when all off. Total system volume ~100g to 110g
The temp & pH probes are located in the sump, just prior to the return pump (but in an area not affected by the return pump heat)
Currently the temp is set at about 80F all the time. The goal is to keep the tank at RT (regional temperature) as closely as possible.

My questions are as follows
1. What is the optimum method (programing) for the heating/cooling? I want to minimize/eliminate the hysteresis on the chiller.

2. Is it better to leave the chiller in an “always on” mode and allow the chiller thermostat to control the temp or to set the chiller to a low temp and allow the Apex to control the temperature? (Much like setting the heaters to “full on”?

3. Is there detriment to having the chiller shut off at any time? I have heard that they do not like to be shut off while running. (I will contact JBL with his question, too, and report back the response).

4. While I love to flood my tank with all the light it needs, I also want to save power/reduce heat wherever and whenever possible. This is why the skimmer shuts off when MH’s are on. Are my lighting profiles above are too lean or too aggressive?

5. I have my two EB8s mapped out as logically as I could at the time of install. My thinking was to a) distribute the power load as equally as possible between the two units, and b) have some type of logical block definitions between the two (“Heating/Cooling”, “Lighting”, “Pumping”). Having said that, do folks see a more logical breakdown/grouping that I can implement? I am open to any ideas.

6. Both EB8’s are plugged into one 15A circuit and at peak (all devices on) the circuit can realize about 14A. I am contemplating having an electrician add another circuit in order to reduce the load. Do folks think that is wise? Do people run close to the rate capacity of an outlet often?

I am sure that I will have many more questions as my reef develops. Apologies that this is so long, but is seemed that being thorough and as detailed as possible was the best way to present this info.

Thanks in advance for any comments, feedback, ideas, criticisms (constructive) and thoughts. I am looking forward to being a part of this community again!
~Tony

TMarshMan · 06/06/2012, 06:19 AM

Judging by the low number (0) of responses to my original post, I am thinking it may be a bit too long, so I will boil down to just questions about Apex programing, chillers and heaters…

Is it better to leave the chiller in an “always on” mode and allow the thermostat in the chiller to control the temperature or to set the chiller to a low temp and allow the Apex to control the temperature by turning on and off the outlet for the chiller?

In the same line of thought, it seems most people set their heaters to “full on” and allow the Apex to control the temperature. The question here is how folks program balance between the heaters and the chillers? I want to make sure I do not program in a scenario where the chiller and the heaters are on at the same time. I can avoid this from occurring if the Apex is controlling both heaters and chiller. The complexity increases if I allow the chiller to control temperature, because now I have two different temperature probes.

Is there detriment to having the chiller shut off at any time? I have heard that they do not like to be shut off while running (mid-cycle).

Does anyone have a set of Apex Outlet Configurations for heaters, chillers, chiller pumps and such that they can share to give me ideas about how to program mine?

Thanks again,
~Tony

Dazed1 · 06/06/2012, 08:16 AM

Tony, the apex questions may be better put in the neptunes forum (sponsor section).

Donkeykong · 06/06/2012, 11:41 AM

OK I will throw a little input out there. I have my heater set, not at full blast but several degrees higher than what my tank is at, around 82 and my apex is set to turn it on if it reaches 77 and back off at 79. I do it this way so that the apex is really controlling when the heater is on or off, but if the apex gets stuck at say 77 degrees the heater will turn itself off at 82. Kinda like a secondary precaution. I dont run a chiller but have helped several others setup there apexs with chillers. So this is what I ask them, how often does your chiller run? THe guys that had LED's rarely had there chiller kick in, so I had the apex really controlling the temp and the chiller would only have power if the rare occasion the temp jumped high, so in this case the apex was in control and the chiller setting were there as a backup similiar to the heater setup, this saved energy of not having the chiller just idly on( but keep circulation pump on or the water in the chiller will get stagnet). Now with your full halide setup you probably have the chiller coming on and off several times a day, in this case I would have the chiller doing most of the control and then just have the apex acting as the secondary, so the outlet is always on unless the apex registers 75 degrees or lower and then it kills it. This will prevent the power being cut off and on to the chiller all day long. Every time the chiller is turned on it has to boot up in a sense, not nearly as complicated as a computer, but it still has to get a temp reading as well as remember its eternal setting. Hope this helps.

This was my 1000 post, AWESOME!

thor109 · 06/06/2012, 12:22 PM

From what I have seen most if not all chillers do not have a pump but are just plumbed inline with normal system return pump.
I think it comes down to what the chiller does when you unplug it. If its digital and goes back to 78 degrees ever time it powers back on letting apex controller control will not work. If it comes back on and remembers temp than it would be fine. So without knowing its really hard to say.

Donkeykong · 06/06/2012, 02:09 PM

How they are plumbed is really up to how the user wants to set it up, I still see chillers with there own seperate pump, so I just wanted to bring it up just incase he has it setup that way. And yes you are right, some of the chillers dont remember their setting after loosing power, so if that is the case you would have to let the chiller do its job and probably just setup the apex as a safety. I have seen the thermostats in chillers get stuck say at 79, so it just stays on thinking it still needs to get to 78 when in actuality it is 74 degrees and you end up with a battle between the chiller and the heater. This is where you want the apex kick the chiller off and send you an email that way you know something has gone haywire.

oscar.millan · 06/06/2012, 05:57 PM

Sorry, I couldn't make it to the questions. Can I have the cliff notes version?

thor109 · 06/06/2012, 06:04 PM

It's better than the posts that read

I have algae, how do I fix it
Or
What size pump do I need on my tank.

TMarshMan · 06/06/2012, 11:12 PM

@Dazed1 – I will condense and re-post any unanswered questions in the Neptune forum. I did not see this area until you pointed it out. Thank you very much for guidance.

@Donkykong – I like your double fail-safe for both the heater and chiller. I will craft some Apex routine for the heaters and chiller around this concept. Thank you!

@thor109 – I understand what you are saying, but my chiller retains the set point, even after hard power cycle. Thanks for pointing this out, though. I never thought about chillers that would reset on a power cycle. Also, thanks for the support!

@oscar.millan – I am sorry to have taken up so much of your time. Thanks anyhow for trying to get to the questions, though. The Cliff notes version is in the second reply.

06/03/2012, 10:07 PM	#1
TMarshMan Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 13	90g w/ Apex programing, chiller & setup questions Hello Reefers! I am hoping this is not too long or too detailed or have too many various questions. I am posting under “Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment” because this seems to be the most logical fit. ReefCentral Admins: please let me know if this needs to be placed somewhere else, broken up or otherwise violates the blog rules. I am new and old to the hobby. I had a 125g about 15 years ago with an old-school “wet-dry”. I then tool a SW hiatus and went FW only. I just jumped back in to SW and reef in the last three months. (Wow, have some things changed and have some things stayed exactly the same!) So, as I stated above, I have jumped back in. I purchased a new tank and a bunch of new and used equipment. I also “inherited” a large volume of rock (mixed variety), sand and creatures. I am not too concerned about the mix right now. I will, in time determine what stays or goes (or, more accurately, the reef will decide). Ok, enough with the intro – here is the meat of the posting: My tank specs: 90g with internal overflow & 40g sump Lighting system is new Hamilton Technology 4’ Cebu Sun (w/ 2x 250W 14K MH, and 4x 54W T5, and LED moon lights and cooling fans. I have the lights behind a sheet of glass. I understand this reduces PAR, but pretty sure I have PAR to spare, and worth the protection from SW) APEX Aquacontroller with two EB8’s (EB8_3 & EB8_4), temp probe and a PH probe EB8_3 Outlet mapping: (1=Return pump, 2=Skimmer, 3=Powerheads, 4=ATO, 5=Heaters, 6=Chiller Pump, 7=Chiller, 8=Wireless Bridge) EB8_3 (3_1) – “ReturnPump” Fallback ON Set ON EB8_3 (3_2) – “Skimmer” (AquaEuro 250 skimmer – two pump model) Fallback ON Set ON If Outlet MH-Right = ON Then OFF If Outlet MH-Left = ON Then OFF Notes: Both pumps on a single power strip. Set to turn off skimmer to reduce load and heat when MH’s are on. EB8_3 (3_3) – “PowerHeads” Power heads x3 Fallback ON Set ON If Temp > 85.0 Then OFF Notes: All 3 power heads on a single power-strip. Set to turn off power heads to reduce heat, if needed (never happened yet). EB8_3 (3_4) – “ATO” JBL Auto Top Off Fallback OFF Set OFF If Time 06:00 to 06:01 Then ON If Time 20:00 to 20:01 Then ON Notes: I set the two times so that the ATO only turns on when someone is home and awake. EB8_3 (3_5) – “Heaters” 2x 200w heaters Fallback OFF If Temp < 78.0 Then ON If Temp > 79.0 Then OFF Defer 010:00 Then ON Defer 010:00 Then OFF Notes: Both heaters on a single power-strip. Both heaters are located in the sump where water enters from overflow (first baffle). Both heaters set to “full on” (Temp all the way up to allow Apex to control). EB8_3 (3_6) – “ChillerPump” Chiller pump Fallback OFF Set OFF If Outlet Chiller = ON Then ON EB8_3 (3_7) – “Chiller” JBL Arctica DBA-075 chiller Fallback OFF Set OFF If Temp < 78.0 Then OFF If Temp > 80.0 Then ON Defer 010:00 Then OFF Defer 010:00 Then ON EB8_3 (3_8) – “Netgear” Netgear wireless bridge Fallback ON Set ON Notes: Used to connect APEX to home network. No reason that it is on the EB8_3 other than needing an outlet EB8_4 Outlet mapping: (1=Metal Halide (right side of tank), 2=Metal Halide (left side of tank), 3=Light Hood Fans, 4=Sump Work Light, 5=T5 set 1, 6=T5 set 2, 7=Open, 8=LED Moon lights) EB8_4 (4_1) – “MH-Right” 250W Metal Halide Fallback OFF Set OFF If Sun 180/-240 Then ON If Temp > 83.0 Then OFF Min Time 010:00 Then OFF EB8_4 (4_2) – “MH-Left” 250W Metal Halide Fallback OFF Set OFF If Sun 240/-180 Then ON If Temp > 84.0 Then OFF Min Time 010:00 Then OFF EB8_4 (4_3) – “LightFan” Light Hood fans x2 Fallback OFF Set OFF If Outlet T5-1 = ON Then ON If Outlet T5-2 = ON Then ON If Outlet MH-Right = ON Then ON If Outlet MH-Left = ON Then ON Defer 010:00 Then OFF EB8_4 (4_4) – “SumpLight” Work light for sump Fallback OFF Set OFF EB8_4 (4_5) – “T5-1” 54W T5 x2 Fallback OFF Set OFF If Sun 060/-120 Then ON If Temp > 86.0 Then OFF EB8_4 (4_6) – “T5-2” 54W T5 x2 Fallback OFF Set OFF If Sun 120/-060 Then ON If Temp > 86.0 Then OFF EB8_4 (4_7) – “Open” Unused Fallback OFF Set OFF EB8_4 (4_8) – “LED (Moon)” LED Moon lights Fallback OFF Set OFF If Moon 000/000 Then ON If Outlet T5-1 = ON Then OFF If Outlet T5-2 = ON Then OFF Other details: The sump is about ¼ full when all pumps and skimmer are running and about 1/2 full when all off. Total system volume ~100g to 110g The temp & pH probes are located in the sump, just prior to the return pump (but in an area not affected by the return pump heat) Currently the temp is set at about 80F all the time. The goal is to keep the tank at RT (regional temperature) as closely as possible. My questions are as follows 1. What is the optimum method (programing) for the heating/cooling? I want to minimize/eliminate the hysteresis on the chiller. 2. Is it better to leave the chiller in an “always on” mode and allow the chiller thermostat to control the temp or to set the chiller to a low temp and allow the Apex to control the temperature? (Much like setting the heaters to “full on”? 3. Is there detriment to having the chiller shut off at any time? I have heard that they do not like to be shut off while running. (I will contact JBL with his question, too, and report back the response). 4. While I love to flood my tank with all the light it needs, I also want to save power/reduce heat wherever and whenever possible. This is why the skimmer shuts off when MH’s are on. Are my lighting profiles above are too lean or too aggressive? 5. I have my two EB8s mapped out as logically as I could at the time of install. My thinking was to a) distribute the power load as equally as possible between the two units, and b) have some type of logical block definitions between the two (“Heating/Cooling”, “Lighting”, “Pumping”). Having said that, do folks see a more logical breakdown/grouping that I can implement? I am open to any ideas. 6. Both EB8’s are plugged into one 15A circuit and at peak (all devices on) the circuit can realize about 14A. I am contemplating having an electrician add another circuit in order to reduce the load. Do folks think that is wise? Do people run close to the rate capacity of an outlet often? I am sure that I will have many more questions as my reef develops. Apologies that this is so long, but is seemed that being thorough and as detailed as possible was the best way to present this info. Thanks in advance for any comments, feedback, ideas, criticisms (constructive) and thoughts. I am looking forward to being a part of this community again! ~Tony

06/06/2012, 06:19 AM	#2
TMarshMan Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 13	Re-ask just the chiller questions Judging by the low number (0) of responses to my original post, I am thinking it may be a bit too long, so I will boil down to just questions about Apex programing, chillers and heaters… Is it better to leave the chiller in an “always on” mode and allow the thermostat in the chiller to control the temperature or to set the chiller to a low temp and allow the Apex to control the temperature by turning on and off the outlet for the chiller? In the same line of thought, it seems most people set their heaters to “full on” and allow the Apex to control the temperature. The question here is how folks program balance between the heaters and the chillers? I want to make sure I do not program in a scenario where the chiller and the heaters are on at the same time. I can avoid this from occurring if the Apex is controlling both heaters and chiller. The complexity increases if I allow the chiller to control temperature, because now I have two different temperature probes. Is there detriment to having the chiller shut off at any time? I have heard that they do not like to be shut off while running (mid-cycle). Does anyone have a set of Apex Outlet Configurations for heaters, chillers, chiller pumps and such that they can share to give me ideas about how to program mine? Thanks again, ~Tony

06/06/2012, 08:16 AM	#3
Dazed1 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,376	Tony, the apex questions may be better put in the neptunes forum (sponsor section). __________________ New DT: 57G Oceanic illuminata, reef ready, rimless. Kessil A350W, Apex lite + few other goodies.

06/06/2012, 11:41 AM	#4
Donkeykong Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Grover Beach CA Posts: 1,847	OK I will throw a little input out there. I have my heater set, not at full blast but several degrees higher than what my tank is at, around 82 and my apex is set to turn it on if it reaches 77 and back off at 79. I do it this way so that the apex is really controlling when the heater is on or off, but if the apex gets stuck at say 77 degrees the heater will turn itself off at 82. Kinda like a secondary precaution. I dont run a chiller but have helped several others setup there apexs with chillers. So this is what I ask them, how often does your chiller run? THe guys that had LED's rarely had there chiller kick in, so I had the apex really controlling the temp and the chiller would only have power if the rare occasion the temp jumped high, so in this case the apex was in control and the chiller setting were there as a backup similiar to the heater setup, this saved energy of not having the chiller just idly on( but keep circulation pump on or the water in the chiller will get stagnet). Now with your full halide setup you probably have the chiller coming on and off several times a day, in this case I would have the chiller doing most of the control and then just have the apex acting as the secondary, so the outlet is always on unless the apex registers 75 degrees or lower and then it kills it. This will prevent the power being cut off and on to the chiller all day long. Every time the chiller is turned on it has to boot up in a sense, not nearly as complicated as a computer, but it still has to get a temp reading as well as remember its eternal setting. Hope this helps. This was my 1000 post, AWESOME! Last edited by Donkeykong; 06/06/2012 at 11:49 AM.

06/06/2012, 05:57 PM	#7
oscar.millan Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,003	Sorry, I couldn't make it to the questions. Can I have the cliff notes version? __________________ "Let the future tell the truth and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I really worked, is mine." -Tesla Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef, 90g rimless cube.

06/06/2012, 12:22 PM	#5
thor109 Registered Member. Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Plainfield, Indiana Posts: 822	From what I have seen most if not all chillers do not have a pump but are just plumbed inline with normal system return pump. I think it comes down to what the chiller does when you unplug it. If its digital and goes back to 78 degrees ever time it powers back on letting apex controller control will not work. If it comes back on and remembers temp than it would be fine. So without knowing its really hard to say.

06/06/2012, 02:09 PM	#6
Donkeykong Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Grover Beach CA Posts: 1,847	How they are plumbed is really up to how the user wants to set it up, I still see chillers with there own seperate pump, so I just wanted to bring it up just incase he has it setup that way. And yes you are right, some of the chillers dont remember their setting after loosing power, so if that is the case you would have to let the chiller do its job and probably just setup the apex as a safety. I have seen the thermostats in chillers get stuck say at 79, so it just stays on thinking it still needs to get to 78 when in actuality it is 74 degrees and you end up with a battle between the chiller and the heater. This is where you want the apex kick the chiller off and send you an email that way you know something has gone haywire.

06/06/2012, 06:04 PM	#8
thor109 Registered Member. Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Plainfield, Indiana Posts: 822	It's better than the posts that read I have algae, how do I fix it Or What size pump do I need on my tank.

06/06/2012, 11:12 PM	#9
TMarshMan Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 13	Thanks All! @Dazed1 – I will condense and re-post any unanswered questions in the Neptune forum. I did not see this area until you pointed it out. Thank you very much for guidance. @Donkykong – I like your double fail-safe for both the heater and chiller. I will craft some Apex routine for the heaters and chiller around this concept. Thank you! @thor109 – I understand what you are saying, but my chiller retains the set point, even after hard power cycle. Thanks for pointing this out, though. I never thought about chillers that would reset on a power cycle. Also, thanks for the support! @oscar.millan – I am sorry to have taken up so much of your time. Thanks anyhow for trying to get to the questions, though. The Cliff notes version is in the second reply.