150 GPD doubler for BRS RO/DI

[mikoz]

Hi,

I recently bought the 6-stage deluxe BRS RO/DI system. I knew that there'd be a lot of waste-water and I knew the ratios of good to waste to expect, but, once you start *watching* how much water you are discarding, it becomes more painful to see.

The gauge on the system reads about 60-65psi depending on the time of day. I assume this is the house water pressure give or take, and not some internal pressure. The doubler indicates that you need 65PSI in one statement (another reads "about 65 psi").

Can I reliably use the doubler with this configuration? Is a booster really needed? If so, what are people using and is it typically "Worth it" to invest in a booster pump? Are there any automatic options (e.g. booster kicks on when it detects flow, it's off otherwise)?

Finally, are people reclaiming the "Waste water" for things like outdoor watering, etc?

thanks!

[adam87]

I use the waste water for washing clothes.

[bhazard451]

At 65psi, you don't need a booster. I was getting 30psi at best, and badly needed one.

The 150gpd 2nd membrane took waste water from a 3:1 ratio to 1:1. I couldn't stomach wasting so much water.

[mikoz]

Originally Posted by bhazard451

At 65psi, you don't need a booster. I was getting 30psi at best, and badly needed one.

The 150gpd 2nd membrane took waste water from a 3:1 ratio to 1:1. I couldn't stomach wasting so much water.

Thanks, but I am not consistently at 65, more like 60-65 and typically 62. Does this really matter?

[mc-cro]

You guys do understand, when you use the 150gpd "doubler" You should still be getting a 4:1 waste water to good water ratio?

If you are only running a 1:1 ratio, then you run a high risk of clogging the membranes.

The additional membrane is meant to double the amount of water being processed, and should also double the amount of waste

[mikoz]

Originally Posted by mc-cro

You guys do understand, when you use the 150gpd "doubler" You should still be getting a 4:1 waste water to good water ratio?

If you are only running a 1:1 ratio, then you run a high risk of clogging the membranes.

The additional membrane is meant to double the amount of water being processed, and should also double the amount of waste

Huh? That's not how i understand it. The kit is named "water saving kit" and the docuemtnation directly states: This 150gpd Water Savings Upgrade kit increases the production of any BulkReefSupply.com 75gpd reverse osmosis unit to 150gpd while cutting waste water by up to 50%

Can you please explain that? I assume this will double capacity per hour (which personally I don't care about) and also reduce the waster water per gallon of produced water?

[bhazard451]

Originally Posted by mc-cro

You guys do understand, when you use the 150gpd "doubler" You should still be getting a 4:1 waste water to good water ratio?

If you are only running a 1:1 ratio, then you run a high risk of clogging the membranes.

The additional membrane is meant to double the amount of water being processed, and should also double the amount of waste

This is not true. It isn't using two separate membranes with two waste outlets. The water passes through the first membrane, then through the second. The increase in production is due to the fact that there is less waste water from the same amount that went in, not more.

[mc-cro]

I really like BRS, except that they sometimes get a little liberal with their product claims.

Yes, you are now producing twice the water (150gpd), but you really only have 1 long filter. In order for it to work according to the manufactures spec it should be producing a 4:1 water ratio.

look at some other vendors websites, that specifically work with just filters, like spectrapure. Here is the manual on how to set up a piggy back RO filter

There is also a thread where Buckey Field Supply clarifies this same thing.

http://www.spectrapure.com/manuals/P...IENDLY/PBK.pdf

If you leave the same flow restrictor in there, I guess you can reduce the overall waste water ratio, but you run the risk of clogging the membrane and having to replace it more often.

The only reason I mention it, is becuase I was all set to pull the trigger on this myself, until I started reading more about it.

[bhazard451]

4:1 ratio doesn't make much sense anyway. So you're saying that instead of producing 3:1 of waste to good with 1 membrane, you would waste 4 gallons to make:1 gallon with 2 membranes? Think about it.

[mikoz]

Originally Posted by mc-cro

I really like BRS, except that they sometimes get a little liberal with their product claims.

Yes, you are now producing twice the water (150gpd), but you really only have 1 long filter. In order for it to work according to the manufactures spec it should be producing a 4:1 water ratio.

look at some other vendors websites, that specifically work with just filters, like spectrapure. Here is the manual on how to set up a piggy back RO filter

There is also a thread where Buckey Field Supply clarifies this same thing.

http://www.spectrapure.com/manuals/P...IENDLY/PBK.pdf

If you leave the same flow restrictor in there, I guess you can reduce the overall waste water ratio, but you run the risk of clogging the membrane and having to replace it more often.

The only reason I mention it, is becuase I was all set to pull the trigger on this myself, until I started reading more about it.

I think this needs confirmation as you're saying it is doubling the output capacity and doubling the waste water. While that may be of benefit to some, I would suspect almost all home users are more concerned about reducing waste water, 75gpd or 90gpd is more than enough to keep a LOT of big tanks topped off. I really would need to understand that claim better. I don't see how they could market the unit as a "water saver" if it did that... at least not for this long.

[mc-cro]

Here, buckeye field supply can explain it much better than I can

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2005963 Post #23

[Fishbulb2]

Wait, things need to be clarified. The BRS water saver unit DOES GET 1:1 waste to product. That's because it's not designed according to the membrane manufacturer's specs. It SHOULD get 4:1 waste to permeate if you want to stay within the DOW membrane recommendations. What it gets and what it should get are not the same thing. Russ from Buckeye Field Supply does sum it up nicely. If you want to get the water saver effect, just use one membrane and get a 1:1 flow restrictor. You'll instantly get the same effect.

The biggest concern I have about the water saver kits, is that if you look at their deluxe Spartan unit that uses the water saver method, you can see some concerning things. The reviews rave about the unit but the ones that list their pre and post membrane TDS are getting not so great rejection rates. Not near 98%. Here's what I see from the reviews of those that posted TDS

160 pre membrane 5 post membrane = 96.8%
460 pre membrane 30 post membrane = 93.47%

In my experience too, I've never gotten a 98% rejection membrane from them. I don't blame them, but I think the manufactures are living in a dream world. Remember too, that for a 98% rejection rate, you're DI resin will literally last 2X longer than a 96% rejection rate. Also, you're membrane will last longer with a 4:1 waste to permeate.

That said after using those units for years, I finally ordered a maxcap high capacity unit today. When I've used Spectrapure's tested membrane's in the past, I've never had below 98% rejection. My incoming TDS was 460+ in southern California, and I would always get about 2-5 TDS post membrane. That reviewer above that is getting 30 TDS post membrane has no idea how much he could save on DI resin by switching to a better unit.

FB

[mikoz]

Originally Posted by Fishbulb2

Wait, things need to be clarified. The BRS water saver unit DOES GET 1:1 waste to product. That's because it's not designed according to the membrane manufacturer's specs. It SHOULD get 4:1 waste to permeate if you want to stay within the DOW membrane recommendations. What it gets and what it should get are not the same thing. Russ from Buckeye Field Supply does sum it up nicely. If you want to get the water saver effect, just use one membrane and get a 1:1 flow restrictor. You'll instantly get the same effect.

The biggest concern I have about the water saver kits, is that if you look at their deluxe Spartan unit that uses the water saver method, you can see some concerning things. The reviews rave about the unit but the ones that list their pre and post membrane TDS are getting not so great rejection rates. Not near 98%. Here's what I see from the reviews of those that posted TDS

160 pre membrane 5 post membrane = 96.8%
460 pre membrane 30 post membrane = 93.47%

In my experience too, I've never gotten a 98% rejection membrane from them. I don't blame them, but I think the manufactures are living in a dream world. Remember too, that for a 98% rejection rate, you're DI resin will literally last 2X longer than a 96% rejection rate. Also, you're membrane will last longer with a 4:1 waste to permeate.

That said after using those units for years, I finally ordered a maxcap high capacity unit today. When I've used Spectrapure's tested membrane's in the past, I've never had below 98% rejection. My incoming TDS was 460+ in southern California, and I would always get about 2-5 TDS post membrane. That reviewer above that is getting 30 TDS post membrane has no idea how much he could save on DI resin by switching to a better unit.

FB

Cool, I am not concerned about doubling the water output, I just want to reduce the waste-water. So I can use a water restrictor on the waste line and adjust so that the ratio of good to waste is about 1:1? Can I just use a Mur-lok valve for this?

[Fishbulb2]

I wouldn't use the Mur-lok valve as it will be hard to adjust. You could use a capillary style restrictor or see if Buckeye Field supply can recommend one for exactly what you want.

Now note, the guys at Dow that designed these membranes probably didn't just pull a 4:1 ratio out of thin air so you may not get long membrane life out of yours if you tweak that. That being said, they probably designed their membranes and ratios for the AVERAGE water supply, so if you have particularly low TDS to begin with, you may be just fine. Either way, you are gambling with the manufacturer's recommendations.

I am interested in how this works long term so do keep us informed. We could use all of the data we can get on this.

FB

[James77]

Originally Posted by mc-cro

You guys do understand, when you use the 150gpd "doubler" You should still be getting a 4:1 waste water to good water ratio?

If you are only running a 1:1 ratio, then you run a high risk of clogging the membranes.

The additional membrane is meant to double the amount of water being processed, and should also double the amount of waste

+1 to this, I had both my membranes foul. Was the "water saver" the direct cause? Dunno....but never had the problem in 10 years until I used it. The "water saver" kit from BRS has you use a 75 gpd restrictor.

After working with BuckEye Field Supply, I went back to the correct ratio using a single 75 gpd membrane and restrictor and could not be happier. Am I "wasting" more water? Sure, but it would have been far cheaper sticking with this than replacing all the blocks and membranes and completely sanitizing the RODI becuase of bacteria. The manufacturer recommends the ratio for a reason.

[clozzzer]

I have the water saver from brs. I have about the same amount of pressure that you do, but when adding a second membrane, it really lowers your psi. I did buy the booster and run at 80 psi at all times. This also equates to more water production as well. High pressure= more water. Don't go over 85 though.

If you run your ratio higher,Like 5 to 1, you will actually see better membrane life and less tds after the membrane. Both plus's for me!!

I swapped my stock flow restrictor for a capillary style flow restrictor. It is more reliable, and adjustable too!!

One thing that I did notice is my psi was really getting chopped down from around 70psi after the aso valve. This is the valve behind your membrane. It has four ports. The brs valve that I had was so small that the inlet pipe was effectively reducing my pressure by half. I swapped this out for another brand aso(spectrapure) and now it runs flawlessly. I highly recommend the aso swap if you go to dual membranes. I am now getting 188 gallons per day production from my rodi.

[clozzzer]

Originally Posted by Fishbulb2

Wait, things need to be clarified. The BRS water saver unit DOES GET 1:1 waste to product. That's because it's not designed according to the membrane manufacturer's specs. It SHOULD get 4:1 waste to permeate if you want to stay within the DOW membrane recommendations. What it gets and what it should get are not the same thing. Russ from Buckeye Field Supply does sum it up nicely. If you want to get the water saver effect, just use one membrane and get a 1:1 flow restrictor. You'll instantly get the same effect.

The biggest concern I have about the water saver kits, is that if you look at their deluxe Spartan unit that uses the water saver method, you can see some concerning things. The reviews rave about the unit but the ones that list their pre and post membrane TDS are getting not so great rejection rates. Not near 98%. Here's what I see from the reviews of those that posted TDS

160 pre membrane 5 post membrane = 96.8%
460 pre membrane 30 post membrane = 93.47%

In my experience too, I've never gotten a 98% rejection membrane from them. I don't blame them, but I think the manufactures are living in a dream world. Remember too, that for a 98% rejection rate, you're DI resin will literally last 2X longer than a 96% rejection rate. Also, you're membrane will last longer with a 4:1 waste to permeate.

That said after using those units for years, I finally ordered a maxcap high capacity unit today. When I've used Spectrapure's tested membrane's in the past, I've never had below 98% rejection. My incoming TDS was 460+ in southern California, and I would always get about 2-5 TDS post membrane. That reviewer above that is getting 30 TDS post membrane has no idea how much he could save on DI resin by switching to a better unit.

FB

I use the brs unit with the water saver package added. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done it with Spectrapure. But, since I have the BRS already, I swapped my membranes to Spectrapures Tested membranes.(they guarentee 98%) At this very moment I am making Rodi water. I live in AZ and my tds coming in is 646 tds. Out of my last membrane I am getting a reading of 11 tds.

Do th math 646-11 = 635 635 / 646 = 98.29% Rejetion.

It will work well, only with the right membranes and the right flow. As Fishbulb pointed out, you need to run a higher flow than 1:1. You will blow your membranes in a month at 1:1. I run my membranes at 6:1. Sure I waist more water, but my membranes last longer and my di lasts longer too.

If you really want to save on water, invest in a high end rodi unit that cycles the same water hundreads of times with a flow pump. They are about $900.00, but since they use very little water, your pre filters will last FOREVER! Imagine the savings on filter media. It is in my plans in the future. Here is a link to one right here:
http://www.spectrapure.com/low_waste_systems.htm

[Buckeye Hydro]

Originally Posted by mc-cro

You guys do understand, when you use the 150gpd "doubler" You should still be getting a 4:1 waste water to good water ratio?

If you are only running a 1:1 ratio, then you run a high risk of clogging the membranes.

The additional membrane is meant to double the amount of water being processed, and should also double the amount of waste

Good post!