Why do LED fixtures use pucks?

[vbsaltydog]

I was just wondering why do LED fixtures like the AI SOL and Ecotech Radion use LED pucks vs. placing the LEDs on a grid pattern like the Apollo?

Thanks

[Mmiller40gt]

Ecotech is upgradable and I have heard the new puck when ever its released is easily replaceable..

[vbsaltydog]

That's a good point. Any other reasons for the puck design over the grid design?

[rrasco]

I think some units try to put the emitters close to each other to blend the colors better too. Instead of a blue here, a little white there, random red here.

[chrishet]

reduces the 'disco' effect....

[vbsaltydog]

Originally Posted by chrishet

reduces the 'disco' effect....

I was thinking it would increase the disco effect. I have Apollos over my 135g and there is very little shimmer compared to halides or LEDs, where there are no optics.

The farther apart the light sources are, and the wider the spread, the more shimmer you get which is why I thought the puck design would increase shimmer vs. a tight grid pattern with tight optics.

[rovster]

Although I love my rapid kit (grid design), the disco ball and color separation is slightly annoying. I bought 3 Radions for my upgrade, Im counting on them looking better in terms of tamer shimmer and not as much color separation. If you take a pic of my tank with the pumps on, you can literally see different specks of different color littered throughout the tank. I had to point my return away from the surface a bit to cut down on the shimmer. Don't get me wrong, I really like my rapid kit and it grows coral for sure, it's just not as refined as I'd like....

[vbsaltydog]

Thanks. I am definitely not looking for the disco ball effect where there are shifting dots of white/blue/etc on the rocks/coral/sand bed but I would like to increase the shimmer effect, with the colors blended well. I am going to raise my fixtures to 12" above the water line and increase the surface agitation to see if that does it. If not then I will remove a few of the 90 degree optics to give a wider light spread which is what creates shimmer in the first place but I need to be careful not to reduce my PAR too much.

The Apollo can grow SPS in the sand bed of a 30" tall tank and my tank is only 24" tall so I think I have a little wiggle room with the optics if it comes to that.

[chrishet]

I don't have an LED fixture today but I would guess that the farther apart the diodes are to each other the more defined they would each be in the tank....and the closer they are to each other the better they would blend together.

[vbsaltydog]

Its obvious that the colors blend better with the diodes closer together. That doesn't address the question of "why the puck design". You can put diodes close together or far apart with a grid design. I am asking what is the reason for the puck design?

[spicytuna]

Do a google search for "cree high bay reference guide". The puck design is not just to blend colors, it's to create a higher output of light, and then use a surrounding reflector to reflect this light.

Most people think ecotech is on to some cutting edge patented design, but Cree themselves clearly gives you litterly 100s of detailed guides on how to make high output led lamps and most don't use optics, they put multiple high output diodes together and use reflectors to simulate a metal halide type lamp

[vbsaltydog]

Thanks. I read the design specs and it closely resembles the designs of the led cannons and Par X bulbs.

My question was more specifically related to the benefits of the puck designs like that of the AI SOL and Ecotech Radion over the grid/matrix designs of fixtures like the Apollo Reef LED and most DIY fixtures.

You clearly get more PAR/PUR from the grid design per fixture making the cost per foot much higher with the puck style fixtures so having said that, what is the benefit of the puck designed fixtures that justifies the higher cost per foot.

Ex.
three Apollo fixtures on a six foot tank @ $400.00 = $1,200.00 (grid design)
six AI SOL fixtures on a six foot tank @ $400.00 = $2,400.00 (puck design)

It ends up taking the same number of leds to cover the six foot area, the only difference is that the grid can do it with half of the fixtures which translates to half of the price so why is the puck design that much more expensive? What is the benefit over the grid design?

[rrasco]

Well, the new AI Vegas have customizable pucks you can swap out for other pucks with different colors.

I still contend it blends better. I have a DIY grid and I get weird coloring spots that go from red to blue to red to blue. It's kind of cool though so I don't mind. It also works.

[vbsaltydog]

Better blending (debatable) and puck swapping is nice but it doesn't justify a 100% increase in price over the grid designs. Thanks for your reply.

Still waiting to hear why the puck design was chosen by AI/Ecotech or its advantage over the grid designs. So far no clear reason other than what seems obvious as using as few LEDs as possible to cover a given area at the minimum PAR/PUR that will be acceptable by the community even though it means twice as many fixtures over a given tank vs the grid designs. I hope thats not the reason but the evidence is not looking good.

Does the puck design give better shimmer? given that there are fewer light sources and they are spread farther apart?

[rrasco]

That is one thing I have heard as well, less chaotic shimmer. I will admit, mine can make you dizzy. It all depends on your surface agitation too.

My question to you is: are you trying to figure out why they use pucks, or are you trying to figure out why the product is expensive? Your last post makes me want to think you are trying to determine justification for their price point.

I am planning to build a clone sometime in the near future of the vegas. I have built a few grid systems, so once I do that, I can report on my findings as to blending differences between the topologies.

[vbsaltydog]

I am not concerned about cost justification. I only mentioned it because there seems to be no other reason for the puck design than to spread the required LEDs for any size tank over more fixtures than the grid design.

I would like to hear that there is an engineering reason for the puck design and a benefit that can be explained/demonstrated vs the grid design but I have yet to hear the engineering reason so I suggested that the reason must be part of their business models.

Someone please disprove my theory.

[rtparty]

Contact those companies and see if they respond. None of us here work for them so how can we answer what they were thinking?



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[rtparty]

Also, price must be a driving factor behind this or it wouldn't have been brought up.

Ecotech will be more expensive no matter how they design a fixture. Brand name plays a HUGE part in price point.

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[vbsaltydog]

Originally Posted by rtparty

Also, price must be a driving factor behind this or it wouldn't have been brought up.

So I can't ask about the reasoning behind a design without it being financially motivated? You dont know me so dont presume to know what my motivations are.

I asked here because there are many engineers that frequent this forum, myself being one of them.

Also, I seriously doubt that the companies in question will release their design rational, regardless of their motivations. Have you every heard of intellectual property? (rhetorical)

Your previous replies have contained no valuable information and have been offensive so I WILL NOT READ your replies and/or reply to them. I will not allow you to hijack this thread.

If anyone else can offer insight into why these fixtures use the puck design vs the grid design then I would be interested in your opinion or personal findings.

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by vbsaltydog

So I can't ask about the reasoning behind a design without it being financially motivated? You dont know me so dont presume to know what my motivations are.

I asked here because there are many engineers that frequent this forum, myself being one of them.

Also, I seriously doubt that the companies in question will release their design rational, regardless of their motivations. Have you every heard of intellectual property? (rhetorical)

Your previous replies have contained no valuable information and have been offensive so I WILL NOT READ your replies and/or reply to them. I will not allow you to hijack this thread.

If anyone else can offer insight into why these fixtures use the puck design vs the grid design then I would be interested in your opinion or personal findings.

Lol. How was anything I said offensive? You said that companies are ONLY doing this to make more money because you have to buy more units to cover the given area. So, it would have to be financially motivated. I didn't say you worried about the price but that you seem bugged by that. If that is offensive, I'd leave this board.

IME the chaotic shimmer and disco ball effect come from optics more than anything else. The closer together the LEDs are, the better blending IME. You also get better coverage in a given area and less of the hot spotting that can go on with LEDs.

With everything spread out, you will have dimmer areas because the light is inconsistent. LEDs are like having a bunch of spotlights. MH and T5 give a much more uniform spreading of the light by design. LEDs need to be messed around with to make them work. Pucks and grids may go away at some point as we progress with this technology.

Was that offensive enough?

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[rrasco]

Originally Posted by vbsaltydog

Better blending (debatable) and puck swapping is nice but it doesn't justify a 100% increase in price over the grid designs. Thanks for your reply.

I only got the financial aspect of it from this comment.

[Lmart]

I always thought leds were modular for upgradability.