First real fish purchase

iceman14555 · 11/10/2012, 10:05 AM

Hello all and happy veterans day to all my fellow vets,

Ok, so my tank is nearing it's first cycle, 1 Month, I cycled it with two damsels and 3 hermit crabs, nobody died

; I want to start stocking the tank with it's first real fish this next week. I was thinking a long tentacle anemone (or similar) and two ocellaris clownfish, would this be a good start or should I go with something else. The two damsels seem really happy, and I'm afraid to add more of them since they get territorial and I don't want them picking at each other. Thanks for any help you can provide!

Microcosmos · 11/10/2012, 10:18 AM

Damsels are mean to all other fishes, not just each other. You may want to try and catch them and return them to your LFS. They will annoy your clownfish. False Perculas from what I understand prefer bubble tip anemones, which require appropriate lighting. Any anemone will move around from where you put it to where it is comfortable and that may mean that you won't be able to see it front and center. How big is your tank and what is your setup (LR, mechanical filtration, lighting)? The choices of fish you can add greatly expand once the Damsels are gone, and the anemone should probably wait until your setup meets specs for it.

Oh, and Happy Veterans Day to you!

MrTuskfish · 11/10/2012, 02:02 PM

Happy Veterans day to you too, thanks for serving!
I agree with Microcosmos I'd get the damsels out while its easy. Anemones are difficult and demanding. I'd suggest you really get a handle on the fish before you venture into anemones. Also, I would not take advice from the LFS that suggested cycling with damsels, this cruel practice hasn't been the norm for many years.

iceman14555 · 11/10/2012, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Happy Veterans day to you too, thanks for serving!
I agree with Microcosmos I'd get the damsels out while its easy. Anemones are difficult and demanding. I'd suggest you really get a handle on the fish before you venture into anemones. Also, I would not take advice from the LFS that suggested cycling with damsels, this cruel practice hasn't been the norm for many years.

I cycled it with Damsels on the recommendation of a Marine aquarium handbook written by a Dr. in marine biology, Martin A. Moe Jr. I think it is. Anyway, they did fine and are now happy, the book says that if you have damsels in before anything else to just make sure you get two or more of what ever you're trying to put in and the damsels should keep to themselves rather than if you pust something in by itself. Can I do clowns without a host anemone?

smacdone · 11/10/2012, 04:32 PM

yeah clowns will do fine without a host anemone. and in the future after the tank has matured and is finally tuned in, its present time for them and you can introduce an anemone later

iceman14555 · 11/10/2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Microcosmos

Damsels are mean to all other fishes, not just each other. You may want to try and catch them and return them to your LFS. They will annoy your clownfish. False Perculas from what I understand prefer bubble tip anemones, which require appropriate lighting. Any anemone will move around from where you put it to where it is comfortable and that may mean that you won't be able to see it front and center. How big is your tank and what is your setup (LR, mechanical filtration, lighting)? The choices of fish you can add greatly expand once the Damsels are gone, and the anemone should probably wait until your setup meets specs for it.

Oh, and Happy Veterans Day to you!

To answer your question about the tank... It is a 40 gallon tall, with about 1500 GPH flowing through it, using a fluval 206 canister (because I have no room for a sump or refugium right now) which I clean on a regular basis, and two Koralia powerheads 550 and 750. My lights are for right now T5 HO's on a 36" Coralife Aqualight, I eventually want to upgrade to the 4 bulb with moonlights. Lastly, I have about 40lbs of live rock in the tank, a surface skimmer and a homemade spraybar which i'm very proud of.

bnumair · 11/10/2012, 04:37 PM

cycling the tank with fish is a cruel practice that has been around for a while. just imagine for a sec. you are in this hobby to preserve a piece of ocean and look as beauty of sea life.
yet such books and LFS that advocate cycle with fish is the worse practice i know.
poor fish the same one u wanna cherish everyday has to go through toxic ammonia and nitrites burn its gills and damage internal organs.... for what?
its sick and not humane. rather throw a piece of deli shrimp in the tank for few days and the cycle will continue.
now sit back and think about it.. for a sec. if u were a fish would u like to be broken in in ur new home viz poisoning u over several weeks or rather water be ready before ur introduced.
just my 2 cents.

MrTuskfish · 11/10/2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iceman14555

I cycled it with Damsels on the recommendation of a Marine aquarium handbook written by a Dr. in marine biology, Martin A. Moe Jr. I think it is. Anyway, they did fine and are now happy, the book says that if you have damsels in before anything else to just make sure you get two or more of what ever you're trying to put in and the damsels should keep to themselves rather than if you pust something in by itself. Can I do clowns without a host anemone?

Not trying to bash you at all. Dr. Moe has had an excellent reputation in the hobby for years; but this book was published about 25 years ago. Much has changed since then. All the damsels did was provide waste, which rotted and produces d ammonia to start the cycle. Now, all source i know of suggest a dead, raw shrimp or simply ammonia. Regardless of how they act, ammonia will burn a fish's gills and is completely unnecessary. The info about adding "two" of everything to prevent damsel aggression is not only false, but impractical. Many fish cannot be kept in groups of any more than one.

Right on the anemone. Many clowns are now bred in captivity and have never seen an anemone. I don't have any numbers, but I'd be surprised if more than 10% of the clowns in captivity are kept with anemones; and many of those just won't host an anemone anyway.

iceman14555 · 11/10/2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Not trying to bash you at all. Dr. Moe has had an excellent reputation in the hobby for years; but this book was published about 25 years ago. Much has changed since then. All the damsels did was provide waste, which rotted and produces d ammonia to start the cycle. Now, all source i know of suggest a dead, raw shrimp or simply ammonia. Regardless of how they act, ammonia will burn a fish's gills and is completely unnecessary. The info about adding "two" of everything to prevent damsel aggression is not only false, but impractical. Many fish cannot be kept in groups of any more than one.

Right on the anemone. Many clowns are now bred in captivity and have never seen an anemone. I don't have any numbers, but I'd be surprised if more than 10% of the clowns in captivity are kept with anemones; and many of those just won't host an anemone anyway.

This is the revised edition, first copyright 2009. My ammonia never spiked, nitrates and nitrites spiked for a day maybe two then went to normal. The tank is almost over a month old. As for the damsel compatibility, Live Aquaria says that they are compatible with most fish, clowns were a caution. What other fish would you suggest besides clowns?

blanden.adam · 11/10/2012, 06:30 PM

Iceman, what's done is done, but although using a damsel works, is really not a good way to cycle a tank. Everyone has made mistakes in this hobby, and I'm not going to berate you for it, but for your next tank please use a fishess cycling method. In the same book, Moe details a method of cycling using direct ammonia dosing (pages 126-127).

That being said, are you particularly attached to the damsels? If you are, by all means keep them, but just know that as damsels grow, they will become belligerent and will limit the fish you can put in the tank to fish that can stand up to them, which is particularly difficult because the damsels have the "home field" advantage if you will, and even worse if you don't quarantine, as the fish wont have had time to settle in, put on weight, get used to your food, and be treated for any illnesses. (I highly recommend quarantining).

Regardless of what live aquaria says about damsel compatibility, I would likely limit myself to fish with "semi-aggressive" or "aggressive" temperaments. If you want clowns, I would go with gold strip maroon clowns (if your tank is big enough). Without more knowledge about your tank, I really can't make more recommendations. (size, filtration, your ultimate goals for the tank).

Also, it was said before, but please do not get an anemone until your tank is at least 6 months old, and you are reasonably sure your water quality and husbandry can support these animals.

iceman14555 · 11/10/2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blanden.adam

Iceman, what's done is done, but although using a damsel works, is really not a good way to cycle a tank. Everyone has made mistakes in this hobby, and I'm not going to berate you for it, but for your next tank please use a fishess cycling method. In the same book, Moe details a method of cycling using direct ammonia dosing (pages 126-127).

That being said, are you particularly attached to the damsels? If you are, by all means keep them, but just know that as damsels grow, they will become belligerent and will limit the fish you can put in the tank to fish that can stand up to them, which is particularly difficult because the damsels have the "home field" advantage if you will, and even worse if you don't quarantine, as the fish wont have had time to settle in, put on weight, get used to your food, and be treated for any illnesses. (I highly recommend quarantining).

Regardless of what live aquaria says about damsel compatibility, I would likely limit myself to fish with "semi-aggressive" or "aggressive" temperaments. If you want clowns, I would go with gold strip maroon clowns (if your tank is big enough). Without more knowledge about your tank, I really can't make more recommendations. (size, filtration, your ultimate goals for the tank).

Also, it was said before, but please do not get an anemone until your tank is at least 6 months old, and you are reasonably sure your water quality and husbandry can support these animals.

roger that, I posted my aquarium specs a bit earlier, in a reply to one of the other posters. I would like to keep my damsels, but if they are going to hinder my enjoyment of the hobby then I might as well try to trade them in for my clowns. I can see holding off on the anemone until water quality is peak, since I now know that clowns don't need a host anemone to be happy. As for the fish less cycling, I guess I can give it a try on my next tank, I did go back through the book and see where he spoke of the ammonia dosing. However, I read this (http://www.firsttankguide.net/myths.php about 3/4 of the way down the list) before I had got the book and one of the LFS's had recommended the damsel cycling this is where my main decision came from. Like you said what's done is done! Will most LFS's trade in old fish for new fish? haven't really had to deal with that.

blanden.adam · 11/10/2012, 08:55 PM

Oh, I actually read those parameters and then forgot. My apologies. There are certainly cool fish that you can keep with damsels, so I don't know as it will limit your enjoyment per say, partifularly if you are keeping FOWLR. You just will probably have to forgo peaceful community fish.

However, should you want to trade your fish, a lot of LFS will take fish back. You may not be able to recoup the price of the fish, but they may give you some credit. Just going to have to ask.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!

iceman14555 · 11/10/2012, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blanden.adam

Oh, I actually read those parameters and then forgot. My apologies. There are certainly cool fish that you can keep with damsels, so I don't know as it will limit your enjoyment per say, partifularly if you are keeping FOWLR. You just will probably have to forgo peaceful community fish.

However, should you want to trade your fish, a lot of LFS will take fish back. You may not be able to recoup the price of the fish, but they may give you some credit. Just going to have to ask.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!

Cool deal, I'll see what Charlie at Epic Reef has to say, that is one of the LFS's that I do trust, he tends to give good honest answers and no BS. On a good note however, just looking at my tank I noticed what I thought to be bristle worms hanging out of a piece of live rock, but I only see them in the morning and at night, turned the light on for a sec to get a good look. Turned out to be a small, probably 3" with tentacles, serpent star (edit: could be a brittle star, I'll try to get a pic at some point) . Must have come as a hitchhiker...

godsdoc · 11/11/2012, 04:48 PM

I would get the damsels out now or you will have a real challenge trying to get them out later when you have your tank aquascaped and have a bunch of corals in it.
I had a yellow tail blue damsel which some say is one of the less aggressive damsels but I had tons of problems he attacked and ate one of my cleaner shrimp and would pick on my pair of clownfish (doubles don't fix/help the problem). I practically had to dismantle my aquarium to catch the darn damsel too.
As for the clownfish and the anemone, I would definitely wait on the anemone until 6+ months partly due to the maturing of the tank but also if this is your first saltwater tank that wait will also help you get your maintenance routines down.
I currently have two pairs of clownfish one pair hosts the anemone and the other pair in my other tank won't host the anemone but have instead decided to host my powerhead, go figure.

11/10/2012, 10:05 AM	#1
iceman14555 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 56	First real fish purchase Hello all and happy veterans day to all my fellow vets, Ok, so my tank is nearing it's first cycle, 1 Month, I cycled it with two damsels and 3 hermit crabs, nobody died ; I want to start stocking the tank with it's first real fish this next week. I was thinking a long tentacle anemone (or similar) and two ocellaris clownfish, would this be a good start or should I go with something else. The two damsels seem really happy, and I'm afraid to add more of them since they get territorial and I don't want them picking at each other. Thanks for any help you can provide!

11/10/2012, 02:02 PM	#3
MrTuskfish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Wild Blue Yonder Posts: 8,887	Happy Veterans day to you too, thanks for serving! I agree with Microcosmos I'd get the damsels out while its easy. Anemones are difficult and demanding. I'd suggest you really get a handle on the fish before you venture into anemones. Also, I would not take advice from the LFS that suggested cycling with damsels, this cruel practice hasn't been the norm for many years. __________________ If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef

11/10/2012, 04:37 PM	#7
bnumair Dr. Reef at ur service Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tulsa, Ok, USA Posts: 7,751 Blog Entries: 15	cycling the tank with fish is a cruel practice that has been around for a while. just imagine for a sec. you are in this hobby to preserve a piece of ocean and look as beauty of sea life. yet such books and LFS that advocate cycle with fish is the worse practice i know. poor fish the same one u wanna cherish everyday has to go through toxic ammonia and nitrites burn its gills and damage internal organs.... for what? its sick and not humane. rather throw a piece of deli shrimp in the tank for few days and the cycle will continue. now sit back and think about it.. for a sec. if u were a fish would u like to be broken in in ur new home viz poisoning u over several weeks or rather water be ready before ur introduced. just my 2 cents. __________________ Water Quality: NO3 0,Phos 0,Cal 440,Alk 7.5,Mag 1300 "Reef Fast, You Crash, Reef Slow, You Pass" Mike's Reef 3:16 Current Tank Info: 350g DT,95g sump, 50g Frag tank, 4800gph return 4x Sea swirls. 6x AI Vega Color. 200# Pukani rock, dual recirculating skimmer, Biopellet, GFO Carbon rx's, Cal rx. Closed loop. 1.5hp chiller, genesis renew. Apex & RKE

11/10/2012, 10:18 AM	#2
Microcosmos Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Hagerstown, MD, USA Posts: 328	Damsels are mean to all other fishes, not just each other. You may want to try and catch them and return them to your LFS. They will annoy your clownfish. False Perculas from what I understand prefer bubble tip anemones, which require appropriate lighting. Any anemone will move around from where you put it to where it is comfortable and that may mean that you won't be able to see it front and center. How big is your tank and what is your setup (LR, mechanical filtration, lighting)? The choices of fish you can add greatly expand once the Damsels are gone, and the anemone should probably wait until your setup meets specs for it. Oh, and Happy Veterans Day to you!

11/10/2012, 04:32 PM	#5
smacdone Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Santa Barbara Posts: 129	yeah clowns will do fine without a host anemone. and in the future after the tank has matured and is finally tuned in, its present time for them and you can introduce an anemone later

11/10/2012, 06:30 PM	#10
blanden.adam Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Manlius, NY Posts: 1,666	Iceman, what's done is done, but although using a damsel works, is really not a good way to cycle a tank. Everyone has made mistakes in this hobby, and I'm not going to berate you for it, but for your next tank please use a fishess cycling method. In the same book, Moe details a method of cycling using direct ammonia dosing (pages 126-127). That being said, are you particularly attached to the damsels? If you are, by all means keep them, but just know that as damsels grow, they will become belligerent and will limit the fish you can put in the tank to fish that can stand up to them, which is particularly difficult because the damsels have the "home field" advantage if you will, and even worse if you don't quarantine, as the fish wont have had time to settle in, put on weight, get used to your food, and be treated for any illnesses. (I highly recommend quarantining). Regardless of what live aquaria says about damsel compatibility, I would likely limit myself to fish with "semi-aggressive" or "aggressive" temperaments. If you want clowns, I would go with gold strip maroon clowns (if your tank is big enough). Without more knowledge about your tank, I really can't make more recommendations. (size, filtration, your ultimate goals for the tank). Also, it was said before, but please do not get an anemone until your tank is at least 6 months old, and you are reasonably sure your water quality and husbandry can support these animals.

11/10/2012, 08:55 PM	#12
blanden.adam Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Manlius, NY Posts: 1,666	Oh, I actually read those parameters and then forgot. My apologies. There are certainly cool fish that you can keep with damsels, so I don't know as it will limit your enjoyment per say, partifularly if you are keeping FOWLR. You just will probably have to forgo peaceful community fish. However, should you want to trade your fish, a lot of LFS will take fish back. You may not be able to recoup the price of the fish, but they may give you some credit. Just going to have to ask. Good luck and welcome to the hobby!

11/11/2012, 04:48 PM	#14
godsdoc Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 49	I would get the damsels out now or you will have a real challenge trying to get them out later when you have your tank aquascaped and have a bunch of corals in it. I had a yellow tail blue damsel which some say is one of the less aggressive damsels but I had tons of problems he attacked and ate one of my cleaner shrimp and would pick on my pair of clownfish (doubles don't fix/help the problem). I practically had to dismantle my aquarium to catch the darn damsel too. As for the clownfish and the anemone, I would definitely wait on the anemone until 6+ months partly due to the maturing of the tank but also if this is your first saltwater tank that wait will also help you get your maintenance routines down. I currently have two pairs of clownfish one pair hosts the anemone and the other pair in my other tank won't host the anemone but have instead decided to host my powerhead, go figure.