Ick - Raise or Lower Salinity?

emilypres · 12/05/2012, 07:29 AM

Well this is a question that I have read many many articles on going both ways when your fish have ick. I am new to this hobby and have just recently acquired several fish from a friend who has decided he was done. He gave me a powder brown tang, ocelarris clown, coral beauty angel, yellow tang and a orange spotted goby. So i recently transferred these to my newish tank - been up for several months now. Got my tank up and running from live rock off several established tanks and my own ro/di water and water from these other systems. So my tank was fairly established right from the get go.

the first two days were fine, the fish seemed to be eating good and swimming all over and enjoying their new home, a much bigger home i might add - the guy had them in a 54 gallon bowfront. I hadn't added my sand yet in my tank so i decided to add some, water got cloudy and then would settle down. Added some more, water got cloudy and then settled down. I then added a phosban reactor with carbon, still fish were fine and everything seemed great. The next morning i got up - fed the fish and they all looked great and happy so I went to work. When i got home, every single fish in the tank had ick. I could believe it. Did i cause this with the extra stress of adding sand on top of moving the fish? Has to be something like that because they ALL have it. I realize it doesn't happen in 6 hours but it sure seemed that way.

I had been in the process of setting up another quarantine/hospital tank next to my main tank - so this process obviously had to speed up. But in the meantime I had to figure out my next step. I have started the process of treating my entire 90 gallon. Yesterday I began raising my tank temp - plan was to keep it around 86-87 F. I also began a chemical treatment process as well. I added a pump to the main tank to get more circulation going and i removed my carbon filter. I also started to lower my salinity - so i added some ro/di water and began the process of lowering it. Then i read an article that said to add salt and to actually raise my salinity - so i started to raise my salinity with some of the newly made up salt water from my quarantine tank - then i get up and start reading thru more articles which says to lower salinity. So now I am totally confused and just can't understand how there can be two completely opposite view points on something so serious as this. I mean I am new to this hobby but its been around a while and we don't know whether to raise or lower salinity - this seems to me to be a fairly basic question that we should have an answer to.

Anyways I need to know whether to raise it or lower it at this point and I need to know why. If the ick doesn't kill these fish, i probably will from the salinity changes that have been going on. I need some advice here.

Thanks,
Dale

Jpruitt546 · 12/05/2012, 07:48 AM

Lower slowly, very slowly down to 1.009. Don't go below that or you will kill your fish. They should explode at that low of a salinity. It should take you several days to lower your salinity. About .2 to .4 per day. Also keep temp around 81 to 82. If I'm a little off with my info someone correct me but that is what I remember to establish a hypo tank.

Jpruitt546 · 12/05/2012, 07:50 AM

Forgot to mention you might want to invest in a uv sterilizer. Ran them for years and never had ick.

downbeach · 12/05/2012, 08:03 AM

What "chemical" process have you started? In your DT or QT?

spieszak · 12/05/2012, 08:03 AM

The reason you see conflicting answers is that salinity alone has very little effect on ich unless you drop the whole way to hypo salinity, which is considered an actual treatment. Minor ups or downs aren't going to affect the ich, just the fish; its a bandaid on a cut that needs stitches. Some people will claim results with the bandaid, but its not a proper treatment.
There are stickies in the disease forum that detail proper treatment in your QT, and the fallow period for your DT. Once you've read through them, if you have questions, posting your questions there will likely get you a quicker response. The best thing you can do now is get your fish into a QT and start treatment.

emilypres · 12/05/2012, 08:10 AM

My tank had been running around a 1.024 for a while now - so yesterday i began to lower it by removing some of the tank water and adding ro/di water. This initially took my salinity down to 1.020. Then late last night I was reading a few more articles and I started seeing a few people who would go on to say to begin raising my salinity by adding saltwater. So this morning, i read some more and i read to lower salinity. This prompted my post - its so frustrating because you read pretty convincing arguments for going either way. I guess when i get home i will do the same thing i did previously and start lowering it. Hopefully between the ick medication and my temp/ salinity/circulation changes - i will be sucessful in getting rid of it.

Oh and fyi - my water parameters the entire time have been nearly perfect - haven't seen the first bit of ammonia/nitrate/nitrite. Looking back - i probably should have added 1 fish at a time every couple of weeks. Hindsight is always 20/20.

emilypres · 12/05/2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spieszak

The reason you see conflicting answers is that salinity alone has very little effect on ich unless you drop the whole way to hypo salinity, which is considered an actual treatment. Minor ups or downs aren't going to affect the ich, just the fish; its a bandaid on a cut that needs stitches. Some people will claim results with the bandaid, but its not a proper treatment.
There are stickies in the disease forum that detail proper treatment in your QT, and the fallow period for your DT. Once you've read through them, if you have questions, posting your questions there will likely get you a quicker response. The best thing you can do now is get your fish into a QT and start treatment.

LOL see this is exactly what I am talking about. While i appreciate your response and honesty, you have just proved my point of conflicting information to a tee. "The best thing you can do now is get your fish into a QT and start treatment" this is completely opposite of what I am reading in half the articles online. Most people are telling me that taking the fish out of the tank is pointless and that I should be treating the entire tank. And also I have 4 sick fish, i don't have 4 hospital tanks, are you suggesting i put them all in my 20 gallon quarantine tank with the newly created saltwater mixture?

spieszak · 12/05/2012, 08:28 AM

Double Post

spieszak · 12/05/2012, 08:30 AM

Seriously? Please take the time to read the stickies before "calling out" my response.
There are cures for ich, and there is living with ich. Living with ich for the most part is considered an issue waiting to happen. Some people get by on the "feed well and pray" method. Its not a long term solution for the most part. Do you want to cure it? Read the stickies in the disease forum.
You cannot treat a DT if you expect anything (live rock, live sand, corals, inverts) to continue to live in it. Only fish can handle hypo or copper.
And no, I'm not suggesting you put your fish in a 20 gallon. I'm suggesting you properly treat and care for your sick fish. Which includes 9 weeks fallow on your DT to treat it also.
You don't get a free pass because you are new. You didn't QT new fish, you are talking about NOT treating them correctly. We all make mistakes, and you get a pass on the mistake. But you took responsibility for the fish. Care for them

downbeach · 12/05/2012, 08:37 AM

There's a lot of advice on some forums, both good and unfortunately, some not so good. There are many articles that have been written on this subject, by many professionals.

Here is some good reading:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.php
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm

This would be my preferred method of treatment:

http://piratefx.hubpages.com/hub/Cupramine

Zeus30 · 12/05/2012, 08:43 AM

IF they're eating ok, go and buy some Garlic Xtreme. I put two drops of this on their food and give it to them. My blue hippo tang still gets spots here and there but she fights them off because of her immune system being good. I feed every other day and in between feedings, I put some drops in the DT just so they get a taste of it. I'm not saying this is best solution, I'm just giving you ideas and commenting on what has worked for me. It's all up to your fish to fight it off and not let it take over them.

skng2011 · 12/05/2012, 08:48 AM

Just went through the same thing on my 300 Gallon.....Once ICH is introduced to the DT it is infected no matter what!! If it is a Fish Only Tank, Keep lowering the Salinity down to .04 every day....Once you get your DT tank to 1.008-1.009 keep it stable!

Fish breath better and seem to be happier and can/will survive at that low of a salinity! There is different stages of ICH and the parasite can not live or multiply in that salinity!

Keep it this way for at least 6 weeks, You will see the ICH start to disappear within a few days, this does not mean its gone just means it went to the next stage and this is where the lower salinity kills the parasite! Be patient and keep it for at least 6 weeks !!!

I have done it,completed it and have had success with it!!! All my fish that were COMPLETELY covered, have survived and look healthier than ever!!!

Just passing on some good knowledge that I have been taught when I first started out!!

Hope this helps and good luck!!

skng2011 · 12/05/2012, 08:49 AM

Just went through the same thing on my 300 Gallon.....Once ICH is introduced to the DT it is infected no matter what!! If it is a Fish Only Tank, Keep lowering the Salinity down to .04 every day....Once you get your DT tank to 1.008-1.009 keep it stable!

Fish breath better and seem to be happier and can/will survive at that low of a salinity! There is different stages of ICH and the parasite can not live or multiply in that salinity!

Keep it this way for at least 6 weeks, You will see the ICH start to disappear within a few days, this does not mean its gone just means it went to the next stage and this is where the lower salinity kills the parasite! Be patient and keep it for at least 6 weeks !!!

I have done it,completed it and have had success with it!!! All my fish that were COMPLETELY covered, have survived and look healthier than ever!!!

Just passing on some good knowledge that I have been taught when I first started out!!

Hope this helps and good luck!!

fishgate · 12/05/2012, 09:31 AM

Where did you read raising salinity was a treatment?

MuffsAbby · 12/05/2012, 10:50 AM

I have to wonder whether some of the articles you read were speaking about freshwater ich as opposed to saltwater. Increasing salinity and increasing temperature are both associated with treating freshwater ich. Neither approach should be used for marine fish. Decreasing salinity (to hypo levels) is one possible treatment for marine fish, although many report limited success with hypo. Also, as others have mentioned, you cannot treat the tank with hypo. If you reduce salinity to hypo levels in your main tank, you will cause die-off, which will likely lead to ammonia issues, which in turn could be more harmful to your fish than the ich itself.

emilypres · 12/06/2012, 07:08 AM

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich.php - this is one article which mentioned raising temp and salinity; i am pretty sure if he is talking about raising salinity he is also talking about saltwater fish

spieszak, you need to calm down - no one called out your response - was simply pointing out the amount of conflicting information on treating this disease and how it can be confusing to a new guy in this hobby.

"You don't get a free pass because you are new. You didn't QT new fish, you are talking about NOT treating them correctly. We all make mistakes, and you get a pass on the mistake. But you took responsibility for the fish. Care for them " - did i ask for a free pass? or am i on this forum doing exactly what you said for me to do - i am trying to care for them.

Thanks for the responses - I am on day 3 and it looks like some of the parasites are hanging on to some of the fish as if they are trying to fall off. I am treating this with a combination of things - 1. medication that i have read in several articles that has worked for people 2. Increased water temp - this seems to be a fairly common theme among most of the articles for treating ick as well, although there are some people who disagree - the majority of what i have read feels this helps fight ick 3. water changes - i am doing small ones each day - i was told not to do big water changes due to allowing the medication to do its thing, however, i add the medication in the morning and do a small water change in the evening. 4. Add circulation - i have added some powerheads to the tank to help increase circulation - this too helps raise temp.

So far no fish have died and they all seem to be somewhat happy considering - by that i mean they are all eating well and swimming all over, so it looks like i am on the right path.

But back to the issue of conflicting information - i guess different things work differently cause each tank is different. I just didn't expect to find such major different viewpoints and methods for treating something like this. And no I wasn't reading a freshwater ick article and using it for saltwater, although i did read some freshwater articles. Anyways, from what i have read, the stress of a move would have more than likely caused the powder brown tang and the coral beauty to break out regardless of what i did. There are articles which specifically talk about this with regards to these 2 fish.

Hindsight, I now have my quarantine tank set up and any fish i bring to my tank will go in it for 3 weeks or so. And i will do this 1 at a time. Probably should have left these fish in this guys tank and brought them over 1 at a time, although it would have been tough catching these fish in his bow front aquarium full of rock.

MuffsAbby · 12/06/2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emilypres

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich.php - this is one article which mentioned raising temp and salinity; i am pretty sure if he is talking about raising salinity he is also talking about saltwater fish

That article is discussing freshwater ich. It refers to Ichthyophthirius, which is the name for the freshwater parasite. The saltwater parasite is called Cryptocaryon irritans. The two diseases have some similarities, but they are not the same, and the treatments are different.

downbeach · 12/06/2012, 07:38 AM

The article you posted is referring to Ichthyophthirius multifiliis , which is Tropical or fresh water Ick.
Cryptocaryon irritans, is Marine or saltwater Ich.

Edit: I would not do any treatment in the DT.

fishgate · 12/06/2012, 07:39 AM

+1 it talks about adding 1 teaspoon/gallon of salt. That amount of salt will do nothing to increase the salinity of a SW tank which typically has 1/2 cup or 24 teaspoons per gallon.

Palting · 12/06/2012, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emilypres

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich.php - this is one article which mentioned raising temp and salinity; i am pretty sure if he is talking about raising salinity he is also talking about saltwater fish

spieszak, you need to calm down - no one called out your response - was simply pointing out the amount of conflicting information on treating this disease and how it can be confusing to a new guy in this hobby.

"You don't get a free pass because you are new. You didn't QT new fish, you are talking about NOT treating them correctly. We all make mistakes, and you get a pass on the mistake. But you took responsibility for the fish. Care for them " - did i ask for a free pass? or am i on this forum doing exactly what you said for me to do - i am trying to care for them.

Thanks for the responses - I am on day 3 and it looks like some of the parasites are hanging on to some of the fish as if they are trying to fall off. I am treating this with a combination of things - 1. medication that i have read in several articles that has worked for people 2. Increased water temp - this seems to be a fairly common theme among most of the articles for treating ick as well, although there are some people who disagree - the majority of what i have read feels this helps fight ick 3. water changes - i am doing small ones each day - i was told not to do big water changes due to allowing the medication to do its thing, however, i add the medication in the morning and do a small water change in the evening. 4. Add circulation - i have added some powerheads to the tank to help increase circulation - this too helps raise temp.

So far no fish have died and they all seem to be somewhat happy considering - by that i mean they are all eating well and swimming all over, so it looks like i am on the right path.

But back to the issue of conflicting information - i guess different things work differently cause each tank is different. I just didn't expect to find such major different viewpoints and methods for treating something like this. And no I wasn't reading a freshwater ick article and using it for saltwater, although i did read some freshwater articles. Anyways, from what i have read, the stress of a move would have more than likely caused the powder brown tang and the coral beauty to break out regardless of what i did. There are articles which specifically talk about this with regards to these 2 fish.

Hindsight, I now have my quarantine tank set up and any fish i bring to my tank will go in it for 3 weeks or so. And i will do this 1 at a time. Probably should have left these fish in this guys tank and brought them over 1 at a time, although it would have been tough catching these fish in his bow front aquarium full of rock.

I have to be honest with you, Dale. Although it may seem like it, you are NOT on the right path. Take it from me, a guy who had 11 fish in a 110 gallon tank that developed Ich, and who read and tried pretty much everything suggested out there in internet space. The reason there is a lot of conflicting information out there is that there is a lot of well meaning but wrong information being given out, as well as confusion between freshwater Ich (Ichthyophthirius sp.) and saltwater Ich (Cryptocaryon sp.).

My first suggestion is stop everything you are doing and read up on Crytocaryon irritans, the saltwater Ich. This forum is dedicated to marine reef and saltwater fish, so a very good resource is the fish diseases section, found here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=87 . Another good resource is Reefkeeping magazine, with two excellent articles on Ich, here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php , and here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.php .

Once you've done the reading, you'll find out what are some of the wrong things you've picked up and posted here. If you don't mind, let me point some of these out to you.
1. Forget about the article you posted regarding raising salinity to treat Ich. That article is about freshwater Ich.
2. Increasing water temp can speed up metabolism and life cycle of the Ich, but does not cure it.
3. Water changes help maintain good water quality, help keep the environment healthy for the fish, and help the fish live with Ich, but does not cure Ich
4. Medications for Ich, specifically for Cryptocaryon irritans, do not work in a reef tank, but are aggressively marketed by the manufacturer and most LFS. Just ask the people who live with Ich in their tanks, and also those who have cured the Ich in their tanks.
5. Stress did not directly cause Crytocaryon irritans to show up in your tank like magic. The Ich parasite was already there to begin with. Stress just caused your fish to show the signs of infection, or caused your uninfected fish to get infected.
6. The fact that your fish are showing less signs of Ich does not mean they are getting cured of Ich. Ich lives on, just moving on to a different part of their life cycle, to show u in your fish again later.

You can successfully keep a reef tank with Ich in it, lots of people do. However, given that you are setting up a QT, I assume your goal is to cure and get rid of the Ich altogether. To successfully achieve a cure, you have to treat both the main tank and the fish separately.There are 3 and only three ways to cure marine Ich in fish for a reef tank: through QT with hypsalinty, copper, and tank transfer method. To treat the main tank, the tank has to remain fishless for at least 6-8 weeks, the same time period that all your fish are in QT getting treated for copper or hyposalinity.

Palting · 12/06/2012, 09:01 AM

BTW, here's another excellent resource, right here in the newbie forum, written up by one reefer I have a lot of respect for, snorvich: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1985626

Do yourself a favor and stop whatever you are doing, and read up on Cryptocaryon irritans.

Painted skin · 12/06/2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palting

I have to be honest with you, Dale. Although it may seem like it, you are NOT on the right path. Take it from me, a guy who had 11 fish in a 110 gallon tank that developed Ich, and who read and tried pretty much everything suggested out there in internet space. The reason there is a lot of conflicting information out there is that there is a lot of well meaning but wrong information being given out, as well as confusion between freshwater Ich (Ichthyophthirius sp.) and saltwater Ich (Cryptocaryon sp.).

My first suggestion is stop everything you are doing and read up on Crytocaryon irritans, the saltwater Ich. This forum is dedicated to marine reef and saltwater fish, so a very good resource is the fish diseases section, found here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=87 . Another good resource is Reefkeeping magazine, with two excellent articles on Ich, here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php , and here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.php .

Once you've done the reading, you'll find out what are some of the wrong things you've picked up and posted here. If you don't mind, let me point some of these out to you.
1. Forget about the article you posted regarding raising salinity to treat Ich. That article is about freshwater Ich.
2. Increasing water temp can speed up metabolism and life cycle of the Ich, but does not cure it.
3. Water changes help maintain good water quality, help keep the environment healthy for the fish, and help the fish live with Ich, but does not cure Ich
4. Medications for Ich, specifically for Cryptocaryon irritans, do not work in a reef tank, but are aggressively marketed by the manufacturer and most LFS. Just ask the people who live with Ich in their tanks, and also those who have cured the Ich in their tanks.
5. Stress did not directly cause Crytocaryon irritans to show up in your tank like magic. The Ich parasite was already there to begin with. Stress just caused your fish to show the signs of infection, or caused your uninfected fish to get infected.
6. The fact that your fish are showing less signs of Ich does not mean they are getting cured of Ich. Ich lives on, just moving on to a different part of their life cycle, to show u in your fish again later.

You can successfully keep a reef tank with Ich in it, lots of people do. However, given that you are setting up a QT, I assume your goal is to cure and get rid of the Ich altogether. To successfully achieve a cure, you have to treat both the main tank and the fish separately.There are 3 and only three ways to cure marine Ich in fish for a reef tank: through QT with hypsalinty, copper, and tank transfer method. To treat the main tank, the tank has to remain fishless for at least 6-8 weeks, the same time period that all your fish are in QT getting treated for copper or hyposalinity.

+1 it's right there in a nut shell.

If you still in believe reef safe med works, then you might as well send me the money. I'll send you 1) reef safe super fast acting white vinegar. lol

ACBlinky · 12/06/2012, 10:16 PM

Please read the stickies at the top of the disease forum, your fish will very likely end up dead if you don't treat them with either copper or hyposalinity in a quarantine tank.

Note that a quarantine tank can be pretty much any food-safe plastic container that holds water. Brute trash cans, blue bins, Rubbermaid storage bins, glass aquariums, acrylic aquariums, old salt buckets or buckets from Home Depot... all you need for a QT is:
- a container
- some sort of filter (hang-on-back filter, in-tank filters including the types used for turtle tanks, even a powerhead with a 'quick filter' attachment filled with foam will do)
- something for the fish to hide in (polyresin aquarium ornaments, non-porous rocks, I've even used teacups/mugs in the past)
- a small heater

that's IT. No substrate, no rockwork, just moving filtered water, a heater, a hiding spot and the fish(es). You can set up a QT for big (or many) fish using a 50g Brute or other type of strong plastic trash bin, small heater and filter for about $100; less than the cost of the fish you're going to lose if you don't treat the ich NOW, and it will serve as a QT for any new fish coming in the future.

As others have said, read up on saltwater ich, C. irritans, and forgive yourself for making a noob mistake, but don't continue to make the mistake now that you have the correct information. Fish cannot fight off ich, they can only live with a constant low-level infection or threat of infection, which you can prevent with 6-12 weeks of simple treatment and quarantine of ALL future additions.

lynchard · 12/06/2012, 10:35 PM

Hopefully someone will get it pretty soon.

emilypres · 12/07/2012, 07:50 AM

Thanks for all the replies and yes I am working on setting up quarantines for each fish. I also just found out from the original owner that these fish have always had ick. His exact quote, "saltwater fish always have it, when they get stressed they just show signs of it" So obviously he never cared to cure it, only keep it at bay at times. I have to say this really sucks because this is a fairly new tank and all of a sudden I have to completely empty these fish out into different containers and begin some 6 - 12 week treatment. Not exactly circumstances that would make someone want to stay in such a hobby. People have hobbies for many reasons but they usually involve being something they are enjoying. Oh well i guess we will see how much in truly enjoy this hobby over the next few weeks.

Palting, thank you so much for being honest and pointing out what i am doing wrong and not attacking me for it. That is what i was looking for when i posted this.

One can see how easy it is to go the wrong way when there are two different types of ick. The fish seem fine and they are all eating healthy. Most of the ick is not showing any longer but I know that is temporary. With Xmas here, I can't simply take 4 fish out of a 90 gallon and put them in quarantine buckets and leave them there to do all this. Also, do you know how hard it is to catch fish in a 90 gallon? I guess i need a fish trap but it has to be big enough to catch a tang. If anyone has a link to one I can go ahead and order it.

Geez what a nightmare.

12/05/2012, 07:29 AM	#1
emilypres Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Macon, GA Posts: 101	Ick - Raise or Lower Salinity? Well this is a question that I have read many many articles on going both ways when your fish have ick. I am new to this hobby and have just recently acquired several fish from a friend who has decided he was done. He gave me a powder brown tang, ocelarris clown, coral beauty angel, yellow tang and a orange spotted goby. So i recently transferred these to my newish tank - been up for several months now. Got my tank up and running from live rock off several established tanks and my own ro/di water and water from these other systems. So my tank was fairly established right from the get go. the first two days were fine, the fish seemed to be eating good and swimming all over and enjoying their new home, a much bigger home i might add - the guy had them in a 54 gallon bowfront. I hadn't added my sand yet in my tank so i decided to add some, water got cloudy and then would settle down. Added some more, water got cloudy and then settled down. I then added a phosban reactor with carbon, still fish were fine and everything seemed great. The next morning i got up - fed the fish and they all looked great and happy so I went to work. When i got home, every single fish in the tank had ick. I could believe it. Did i cause this with the extra stress of adding sand on top of moving the fish? Has to be something like that because they ALL have it. I realize it doesn't happen in 6 hours but it sure seemed that way. I had been in the process of setting up another quarantine/hospital tank next to my main tank - so this process obviously had to speed up. But in the meantime I had to figure out my next step. I have started the process of treating my entire 90 gallon. Yesterday I began raising my tank temp - plan was to keep it around 86-87 F. I also began a chemical treatment process as well. I added a pump to the main tank to get more circulation going and i removed my carbon filter. I also started to lower my salinity - so i added some ro/di water and began the process of lowering it. Then i read an article that said to add salt and to actually raise my salinity - so i started to raise my salinity with some of the newly made up salt water from my quarantine tank - then i get up and start reading thru more articles which says to lower salinity. So now I am totally confused and just can't understand how there can be two completely opposite view points on something so serious as this. I mean I am new to this hobby but its been around a while and we don't know whether to raise or lower salinity - this seems to me to be a fairly basic question that we should have an answer to. Anyways I need to know whether to raise it or lower it at this point and I need to know why. If the ick doesn't kill these fish, i probably will from the salinity changes that have been going on. I need some advice here. Thanks, Dale

12/05/2012, 08:03 AM	#5
spieszak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,877	The reason you see conflicting answers is that salinity alone has very little effect on ich unless you drop the whole way to hypo salinity, which is considered an actual treatment. Minor ups or downs aren't going to affect the ich, just the fish; its a bandaid on a cut that needs stitches. Some people will claim results with the bandaid, but its not a proper treatment. There are stickies in the disease forum that detail proper treatment in your QT, and the fallow period for your DT. Once you've read through them, if you have questions, posting your questions there will likely get you a quicker response. The best thing you can do now is get your fish into a QT and start treatment. __________________ I'm new to this saltwater thing, all comments should be taken with a BUCKET of salt! :-) -Stacey

12/05/2012, 08:28 AM	#8
spieszak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,877	Double Post __________________ I'm new to this saltwater thing, all comments should be taken with a BUCKET of salt! :-) -Stacey

12/05/2012, 08:30 AM	#9
spieszak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,877	Seriously? Please take the time to read the stickies before "calling out" my response. There are cures for ich, and there is living with ich. Living with ich for the most part is considered an issue waiting to happen. Some people get by on the "feed well and pray" method. Its not a long term solution for the most part. Do you want to cure it? Read the stickies in the disease forum. You cannot treat a DT if you expect anything (live rock, live sand, corals, inverts) to continue to live in it. Only fish can handle hypo or copper. And no, I'm not suggesting you put your fish in a 20 gallon. I'm suggesting you properly treat and care for your sick fish. Which includes 9 weeks fallow on your DT to treat it also. You don't get a free pass because you are new. You didn't QT new fish, you are talking about NOT treating them correctly. We all make mistakes, and you get a pass on the mistake. But you took responsibility for the fish. Care for them __________________ I'm new to this saltwater thing, all comments should be taken with a BUCKET of salt! :-) -Stacey

12/05/2012, 08:43 AM	#11
Zeus30 YOU MAD, BRO?! Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 117	IF they're eating ok, go and buy some Garlic Xtreme. I put two drops of this on their food and give it to them. My blue hippo tang still gets spots here and there but she fights them off because of her immune system being good. I feed every other day and in between feedings, I put some drops in the DT just so they get a taste of it. I'm not saying this is best solution, I'm just giving you ideas and commenting on what has worked for me. It's all up to your fish to fight it off and not let it take over them. __________________ 90 Gallon Sumpless Reef \| Bubble Magus BM-NAC5E \| Fluval 405 Canister w/ Chemi-pure \| (2) AI Sol Blues \| (2) MP40w's Current Tank Info: 90 Gallon Sumpless

12/05/2012, 07:48 AM	#2
Jpruitt546 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Sherman TX Posts: 74	Lower slowly, very slowly down to 1.009. Don't go below that or you will kill your fish. They should explode at that low of a salinity. It should take you several days to lower your salinity. About .2 to .4 per day. Also keep temp around 81 to 82. If I'm a little off with my info someone correct me but that is what I remember to establish a hypo tank.

12/05/2012, 07:50 AM	#3
Jpruitt546 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Sherman TX Posts: 74	Forgot to mention you might want to invest in a uv sterilizer. Ran them for years and never had ick.

12/05/2012, 08:03 AM	#4
downbeach Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Smyrna, Delaware Posts: 3,767	What "chemical" process have you started? In your DT or QT?

12/05/2012, 08:10 AM	#6
emilypres Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Macon, GA Posts: 101	My tank had been running around a 1.024 for a while now - so yesterday i began to lower it by removing some of the tank water and adding ro/di water. This initially took my salinity down to 1.020. Then late last night I was reading a few more articles and I started seeing a few people who would go on to say to begin raising my salinity by adding saltwater. So this morning, i read some more and i read to lower salinity. This prompted my post - its so frustrating because you read pretty convincing arguments for going either way. I guess when i get home i will do the same thing i did previously and start lowering it. Hopefully between the ick medication and my temp/ salinity/circulation changes - i will be sucessful in getting rid of it. Oh and fyi - my water parameters the entire time have been nearly perfect - haven't seen the first bit of ammonia/nitrate/nitrite. Looking back - i probably should have added 1 fish at a time every couple of weeks. Hindsight is always 20/20.

12/05/2012, 08:37 AM	#10
downbeach Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Smyrna, Delaware Posts: 3,767	There's a lot of advice on some forums, both good and unfortunately, some not so good. There are many articles that have been written on this subject, by many professionals. Here is some good reading: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.php http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.php http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm This would be my preferred method of treatment: http://piratefx.hubpages.com/hub/Cupramine

12/05/2012, 08:48 AM	#12
skng2011 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Deerfield Beach , FL Posts: 374	Just went through the same thing on my 300 Gallon.....Once ICH is introduced to the DT it is infected no matter what!! If it is a Fish Only Tank, Keep lowering the Salinity down to .04 every day....Once you get your DT tank to 1.008-1.009 keep it stable! Fish breath better and seem to be happier and can/will survive at that low of a salinity! There is different stages of ICH and the parasite can not live or multiply in that salinity! Keep it this way for at least 6 weeks, You will see the ICH start to disappear within a few days, this does not mean its gone just means it went to the next stage and this is where the lower salinity kills the parasite! Be patient and keep it for at least 6 weeks !!! I have done it,completed it and have had success with it!!! All my fish that were COMPLETELY covered, have survived and look healthier than ever!!! Just passing on some good knowledge that I have been taught when I first started out!! Hope this helps and good luck!!

12/05/2012, 08:49 AM	#13
skng2011 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Deerfield Beach , FL Posts: 374	Just went through the same thing on my 300 Gallon.....Once ICH is introduced to the DT it is infected no matter what!! If it is a Fish Only Tank, Keep lowering the Salinity down to .04 every day....Once you get your DT tank to 1.008-1.009 keep it stable! Fish breath better and seem to be happier and can/will survive at that low of a salinity! There is different stages of ICH and the parasite can not live or multiply in that salinity! Keep it this way for at least 6 weeks, You will see the ICH start to disappear within a few days, this does not mean its gone just means it went to the next stage and this is where the lower salinity kills the parasite! Be patient and keep it for at least 6 weeks !!! I have done it,completed it and have had success with it!!! All my fish that were COMPLETELY covered, have survived and look healthier than ever!!! Just passing on some good knowledge that I have been taught when I first started out!! Hope this helps and good luck!!

12/05/2012, 09:31 AM	#14
fishgate Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Damascus, MD Posts: 3,340	Where did you read raising salinity was a treatment? __________________ 125RR in-wall, 40B Sump, CS180 BM Skimmer, ATI 4x80 watt, eheim 1262, custom wrap around rock wall, ReefKeeper Elite 120g in-wall, 40B Sump, PC 54wx4, Jabao DC-6000 (full siphon), future seahorse t Current Tank Info: 125g, 120g, 2x40b sumps, ATI 4x80 T5HO

12/05/2012, 10:50 AM	#15
MuffsAbby Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Mississauga, Ontario Posts: 327	I have to wonder whether some of the articles you read were speaking about freshwater ich as opposed to saltwater. Increasing salinity and increasing temperature are both associated with treating freshwater ich. Neither approach should be used for marine fish. Decreasing salinity (to hypo levels) is one possible treatment for marine fish, although many report limited success with hypo. Also, as others have mentioned, you cannot treat the tank with hypo. If you reduce salinity to hypo levels in your main tank, you will cause die-off, which will likely lead to ammonia issues, which in turn could be more harmful to your fish than the ich itself. __________________ Susan Current Tank Info: 150g fish only DT, with 2 ocellaris clowns, flagfin angel, bangaii cardinal, flame hawk pair and lyretail anthias.

12/06/2012, 07:08 AM	#16
emilypres Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Macon, GA Posts: 101	http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich.php - this is one article which mentioned raising temp and salinity; i am pretty sure if he is talking about raising salinity he is also talking about saltwater fish spieszak, you need to calm down - no one called out your response - was simply pointing out the amount of conflicting information on treating this disease and how it can be confusing to a new guy in this hobby. "You don't get a free pass because you are new. You didn't QT new fish, you are talking about NOT treating them correctly. We all make mistakes, and you get a pass on the mistake. But you took responsibility for the fish. Care for them " - did i ask for a free pass? or am i on this forum doing exactly what you said for me to do - i am trying to care for them. Thanks for the responses - I am on day 3 and it looks like some of the parasites are hanging on to some of the fish as if they are trying to fall off. I am treating this with a combination of things - 1. medication that i have read in several articles that has worked for people 2. Increased water temp - this seems to be a fairly common theme among most of the articles for treating ick as well, although there are some people who disagree - the majority of what i have read feels this helps fight ick 3. water changes - i am doing small ones each day - i was told not to do big water changes due to allowing the medication to do its thing, however, i add the medication in the morning and do a small water change in the evening. 4. Add circulation - i have added some powerheads to the tank to help increase circulation - this too helps raise temp. So far no fish have died and they all seem to be somewhat happy considering - by that i mean they are all eating well and swimming all over, so it looks like i am on the right path. But back to the issue of conflicting information - i guess different things work differently cause each tank is different. I just didn't expect to find such major different viewpoints and methods for treating something like this. And no I wasn't reading a freshwater ick article and using it for saltwater, although i did read some freshwater articles. Anyways, from what i have read, the stress of a move would have more than likely caused the powder brown tang and the coral beauty to break out regardless of what i did. There are articles which specifically talk about this with regards to these 2 fish. Hindsight, I now have my quarantine tank set up and any fish i bring to my tank will go in it for 3 weeks or so. And i will do this 1 at a time. Probably should have left these fish in this guys tank and brought them over 1 at a time, although it would have been tough catching these fish in his bow front aquarium full of rock.

12/06/2012, 07:38 AM	#18
downbeach Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Smyrna, Delaware Posts: 3,767	The article you posted is referring to Ichthyophthirius multifiliis , which is Tropical or fresh water Ick. Cryptocaryon irritans, is Marine or saltwater Ich. Edit: I would not do any treatment in the DT. Last edited by downbeach; 12/06/2012 at 07:47 AM.

12/06/2012, 07:39 AM	#19
fishgate Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Damascus, MD Posts: 3,340	+1 it talks about adding 1 teaspoon/gallon of salt. That amount of salt will do nothing to increase the salinity of a SW tank which typically has 1/2 cup or 24 teaspoons per gallon. __________________ 125RR in-wall, 40B Sump, CS180 BM Skimmer, ATI 4x80 watt, eheim 1262, custom wrap around rock wall, ReefKeeper Elite 120g in-wall, 40B Sump, PC 54wx4, Jabao DC-6000 (full siphon), future seahorse t Current Tank Info: 125g, 120g, 2x40b sumps, ATI 4x80 T5HO

12/06/2012, 09:01 AM	#21
Palting Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,912	BTW, here's another excellent resource, right here in the newbie forum, written up by one reefer I have a lot of respect for, snorvich: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1985626 Do yourself a favor and stop whatever you are doing, and read up on Cryptocaryon irritans. __________________ Anything I post is just an opinion. One of many in this hobby. Believe and follow at your own risk of rapid and complete annihilation of all life in your tank :) Current Tank Info: Incept 3/2010, 150 RR, 50g sump, 20g fuge, 150w 15K MH x3, T5 actinics x8, moonlight LED x6, 1400gph return, Koralia 1400 x4, 300 g skimmer, 4 tangs, 2 mandarins, 2 perc, 6 line, 3 cardinals, 2 firefish, SPS, LPS, zoas, palys, shrooms, clam

12/06/2012, 10:16 PM	#23
ACBlinky Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Peterborough, ON, Canada Posts: 4,954 Blog Entries: 20	Please read the stickies at the top of the disease forum, your fish will very likely end up dead if you don't treat them with either copper or hyposalinity in a quarantine tank. Note that a quarantine tank can be pretty much any food-safe plastic container that holds water. Brute trash cans, blue bins, Rubbermaid storage bins, glass aquariums, acrylic aquariums, old salt buckets or buckets from Home Depot... all you need for a QT is: - a container - some sort of filter (hang-on-back filter, in-tank filters including the types used for turtle tanks, even a powerhead with a 'quick filter' attachment filled with foam will do) - something for the fish to hide in (polyresin aquarium ornaments, non-porous rocks, I've even used teacups/mugs in the past) - a small heater that's IT. No substrate, no rockwork, just moving filtered water, a heater, a hiding spot and the fish(es). You can set up a QT for big (or many) fish using a 50g Brute or other type of strong plastic trash bin, small heater and filter for about $100; less than the cost of the fish you're going to lose if you don't treat the ich NOW, and it will serve as a QT for any new fish coming in the future. As others have said, read up on saltwater ich, C. irritans, and forgive yourself for making a noob mistake, but don't continue to make the mistake now that you have the correct information. Fish cannot fight off ich, they can only live with a constant low-level infection or threat of infection, which you can prevent with 6-12 weeks of simple treatment and quarantine of ALL future additions. __________________ "The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears, or the sea." - Isak Dinesen Current Tank Info: 150g mixed reef, 30g sump/refugium, LED lighting, 100lbs LR, coral beauty, flame angel, blue & yellow tangs, gobies, damsels, 6-line wrasse, lawnmower blenny, dottyback, clown pair, rabbitfish, shrimp, crabs, CUC.

12/06/2012, 10:35 PM	#24
lynchard Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 8	Hopefully someone will get it pretty soon. Last edited by lynchard; 12/06/2012 at 10:41 PM.

12/07/2012, 07:50 AM	#25
emilypres Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Macon, GA Posts: 101	Thanks for all the replies and yes I am working on setting up quarantines for each fish. I also just found out from the original owner that these fish have always had ick. His exact quote, "saltwater fish always have it, when they get stressed they just show signs of it" So obviously he never cared to cure it, only keep it at bay at times. I have to say this really sucks because this is a fairly new tank and all of a sudden I have to completely empty these fish out into different containers and begin some 6 - 12 week treatment. Not exactly circumstances that would make someone want to stay in such a hobby. People have hobbies for many reasons but they usually involve being something they are enjoying. Oh well i guess we will see how much in truly enjoy this hobby over the next few weeks. Palting, thank you so much for being honest and pointing out what i am doing wrong and not attacking me for it. That is what i was looking for when i posted this. One can see how easy it is to go the wrong way when there are two different types of ick. The fish seem fine and they are all eating healthy. Most of the ick is not showing any longer but I know that is temporary. With Xmas here, I can't simply take 4 fish out of a 90 gallon and put them in quarantine buckets and leave them there to do all this. Also, do you know how hard it is to catch fish in a 90 gallon? I guess i need a fish trap but it has to be big enough to catch a tang. If anyone has a link to one I can go ahead and order it. Geez what a nightmare.