Are my LED's starving my Corals?

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 08:25 AM

Hey guys, I am currently running the Chinese knock off LED light fixtures on my 220 reef. There's apppx 100 bulbs. 50 blue and 50 white. 1 watt bulbs.Tank is 30 inches high and lights are about 6 inches above the water line. I can't seem to keep most LPS. I buy lobos, wellsos, chalice. Within days or weeks the teeth just start popping through and I loose the coral. For flow I'm running 2 Vortech MP40's.Nitrates are close to 0, phosphates are 0. Alk is 8. Salinity 1.024. Calcium 420. What am I doing wrong? All the soft corals on my tank thrive. Am I starving the corals? I put these lps close to the bottom. Also tried up higher. Nothing is working. I've tried target feeding. Corals are so stressed they don't take good in. Any advice were to go? Better light fixtures? AI? Radion?
Kessil?

Any help greatly appreciated.
I

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 08:36 AM

To continue.
I bought these Chinese fixtures 18 months ago. Sounded like a good deal at the time.

Next issue... If I was to go with Radion. One of my local dealers swears i have to get the pro. He says my tank depth warrants it. My other trusted Radion dealer says all his customers buy the new Version 2 with my size tank.

Who the heck do I believe?

I just want to be able to keep some LPS.
SPS doesn't really thrill me.

Here is another example of a lps not looking good.

Thanks guys,
Steve

megadeth72 · 12/09/2012, 08:49 AM

if that happens within days it's not from your light

I would look for predators or fish picking at them, what is "near zero" nitrates? do you target feed the lps? I feed my lps blended fish/shrimp/clams daily

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 08:59 AM

I am not seeing any of my fish pick. I do have few cleaner shrimp. They are not sitting on any of the lps pieces. I do run a bio pellet reactor. Had nitrate issues few months back. I can't detect any nitrates on test kits.

Now even when my NO3 and NO4 were detectable I got the same results with these lights.
Thoughts?

megadeth72 · 12/09/2012, 09:07 AM

any angels or dwarf angels?

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 09:37 AM

No dwarf or large coral eaters.

YoungREEFA · 12/09/2012, 09:40 AM

the lights crap, im sorry, 1 watt bulbs in only blue and white, its hugely a large part, you should have designed a full spectrum unit from evergrow

rldcpa · 12/09/2012, 10:00 AM

Your tank is deep which is tough for LED's anyway. 3 watt versions would be better and the better LED's have some 5 watt LED included which is even better.

So with a 1 watt fixture the top 12" might get enough light but as you go deeper it will be harder to keep corals growing.

The Chinese do make some 3 watt lights which would be better, but you will have a tougher time with corals on the bottom of the tank.

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 10:23 AM

Above on the sand 30 inches down.

Above some Acans doing ok. 24 inches down.

Lobo 24 inches down looks awful.
Torch seems to be ok.

2 pieces of chalice melted away in 2-3 weeks.

megadeth72 · 12/09/2012, 10:28 AM

it's not the light if your keeping other low light corals next right next to lps

and the light wont cause them to melt in 2 weeks

can you borrow someone else's nitrate/phosphate test kits?

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 11:11 AM

Here is a full shot of my tank to get an idea of the light penetration.

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 11:12 AM

nanoreefer1000 · 12/09/2012, 11:34 AM

Get some Razors, RB fixtures, or make a DIY one

Sensei ClamMan · 12/09/2012, 04:18 PM

Bio pellets wreaked havoc on my corals, faded, stn, rtn. Did 2 bio pellet experiments and came to the conclusion that things were great without them. Take them offline for awhile and see if it turns around.

Sensei ClamMan · 12/09/2012, 04:21 PM

Oh, and yes those lights do suck, sorry

sminker · 12/09/2012, 04:46 PM

I'm still a halide guy. As soon as I see some more full blown sps tanks with good growth over an extended amount of time I will change my mind. Until then, halides and t5s for me.

And yes based off my research your fixtures are pretty weak for LEDs. You need a full spectrum with some royal blues, varying kelvin whites, a few reds and a few greens and violets for coloration. White and blue only fixtures will wash out you colors over time.

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 04:54 PM

Look at the tissue of this Pagoda? It's peeling away.

chadfarmer · 12/09/2012, 06:03 PM

Could be the lights or parameters, if u think it the light swap out 1 to see. Maybe the spectrum moved on the leds, it would be an interesting find

bhazard451 · 12/09/2012, 06:50 PM

At the very least, you should be running 3 watt leds with optics for enough light 30 inches down. Second, Cool White/Royal Blue leds alone are notoriously horrible at keeping coral. They are missing too much spectrum. So 1 watt leds and CW/RB is a recipe for disaster.

Change over to a Maxspect Razor, GHL Mitra, or Radion Pro when they come out. Otherwise, at the very least use updated 3W chinese fixtures which include warm whites, reds, greens, and violets.

megadeth72 · 12/09/2012, 06:55 PM

cool white royal blue is used by hundreds of reefers without a problem

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 07:05 PM

Would one regular Radion be ok?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

SPotter · 12/09/2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadeth72

cool white royal blue is used by hundreds of reefers without a problem

agreed.....ai sol's have been successful at growing corals regardless of the color mix. Yeah the corals dont pop as much as they do under a full spectrum but it doesnt stop them from growing.

SPotter · 12/09/2012, 07:30 PM

I dont think the lights are necessarily your issue either, while they arent the best I know guys that use the chinese fixtures with no issues. I think you are starving your corals as you said that your po4 and no3 are both at 0. Corals need some nutrients to grow and if you have intense lighting as leds are intense, the corals will burn thru the nutrients very quickly. I use LED's and T5's and in the last 9 months have experienced 2 coral crashes. I racked my bains and drove myself crazy trying to figure out what the problem was. I came up with everything from bacterial infections to bad salt to red bugs/aefw and many other things. I drove my tank for low to no nutrients always measuring 0-2ppm on n03 and <.01ppm po3. Corals did good at first but then as I increased my intensity on the LEDs things would slowly die off. It wasnt until the 2nd time I lost almost all of my corals I was able to put it together that my water was too clean and my lights were too intense. I have since added new corals to my tank, lowered the intensity to a max of 75% on all colors and slowly increased my po3 to .03-.05 and no3 to 5-10ppm. Since doing that my corals look great!!! The colors are amazing, there's noticeable growth and constant PE. While a lot of LED's don't throw off the par numbers that MH and T5's throw off and what everyone is always comparing them too....LED's are an intense light despite lower par numbers. This is just my own personal experience and only my .02 but before you go out and spend $600 on a light, try bringing up your nutrient levels a little and see what happens.

SPotter · 12/09/2012, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadfarmer

Could be the lights or parameters, if u think it the light swap out 1 to see. Maybe the spectrum moved on the leds, it would be an interesting find

Chad, your corals and tanks are fairly well known on RC. Can you tell us what your parameters are?

DarthSimon · 12/09/2012, 07:46 PM

Spotter,
I agree with what you are saying, but even when I had high nitrates, over 80 my LPS looked the same exact way.... I pressume nitrates being 80 would not help the situation either...

Fact of the matter is, I have never been able to keep LPS under these lights longer than a month or 2....

I just started back up with LPS after getting my NO3 and NO4 in check... The LPS your seeing is all new....

12/09/2012, 08:25 AM	#1
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	Are my LED's starving my Corals? Hey guys, I am currently running the Chinese knock off LED light fixtures on my 220 reef. There's apppx 100 bulbs. 50 blue and 50 white. 1 watt bulbs.Tank is 30 inches high and lights are about 6 inches above the water line. I can't seem to keep most LPS. I buy lobos, wellsos, chalice. Within days or weeks the teeth just start popping through and I loose the coral. For flow I'm running 2 Vortech MP40's.Nitrates are close to 0, phosphates are 0. Alk is 8. Salinity 1.024. Calcium 420. What am I doing wrong? All the soft corals on my tank thrive. Am I starving the corals? I put these lps close to the bottom. Also tried up higher. Nothing is working. I've tried target feeding. Corals are so stressed they don't take good in. Any advice were to go? Better light fixtures? AI? Radion? Kessil? Any help greatly appreciated. I Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

12/09/2012, 10:00 AM	#8
rldcpa Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 498	Your tank is deep which is tough for LED's anyway. 3 watt versions would be better and the better LED's have some 5 watt LED included which is even better. So with a 1 watt fixture the top 12" might get enough light but as you go deeper it will be harder to keep corals growing. The Chinese do make some 3 watt lights which would be better, but you will have a tougher time with corals on the bottom of the tank. __________________ 245g 72x30x26, SRO5000 skimmer, WB HY-7000 pump, custom sump 60x24x18, 3 Maxspect Razor 160w LED, Neptune Apex, 4 Tunze 6105, Bubble Magus Doser, 80 watt Emperor UV, 2 800w heaters

12/09/2012, 04:18 PM	#14
Sensei ClamMan Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Golden BC, Can Posts: 135	Bio pellets wreaked havoc on my corals, faded, stn, rtn. Did 2 bio pellet experiments and came to the conclusion that things were great without them. Take them offline for awhile and see if it turns around. __________________ 180g SPS. Current Tank Info: 180 SPS

12/09/2012, 04:21 PM	#15
Sensei ClamMan Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Golden BC, Can Posts: 135	Oh, and yes those lights do suck, sorry __________________ 180g SPS. Current Tank Info: 180 SPS

12/09/2012, 04:46 PM	#16
sminker Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 612	I'm still a halide guy. As soon as I see some more full blown sps tanks with good growth over an extended amount of time I will change my mind. Until then, halides and t5s for me. And yes based off my research your fixtures are pretty weak for LEDs. You need a full spectrum with some royal blues, varying kelvin whites, a few reds and a few greens and violets for coloration. White and blue only fixtures will wash out you colors over time. __________________ 180G SPS Reef \| 8x80w T5HO Retro \| Apex Controlled

12/09/2012, 08:36 AM	#2
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	To continue. I bought these Chinese fixtures 18 months ago. Sounded like a good deal at the time. Next issue... If I was to go with Radion. One of my local dealers swears i have to get the pro. He says my tank depth warrants it. My other trusted Radion dealer says all his customers buy the new Version 2 with my size tank. Who the heck do I believe? I just want to be able to keep some LPS. SPS doesn't really thrill me. Here is another example of a lps not looking good. Thanks guys, Steve

12/09/2012, 08:49 AM	#3
megadeth72 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 444	if that happens within days it's not from your light I would look for predators or fish picking at them, what is "near zero" nitrates? do you target feed the lps? I feed my lps blended fish/shrimp/clams daily

12/09/2012, 08:59 AM	#4
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	I am not seeing any of my fish pick. I do have few cleaner shrimp. They are not sitting on any of the lps pieces. I do run a bio pellet reactor. Had nitrate issues few months back. I can't detect any nitrates on test kits. Now even when my NO3 and NO4 were detectable I got the same results with these lights. Thoughts?

12/09/2012, 09:07 AM	#5
megadeth72 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 444	any angels or dwarf angels?

12/09/2012, 09:37 AM	#6
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	No dwarf or large coral eaters.

12/09/2012, 09:40 AM	#7
YoungREEFA Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Indianapolis IN Posts: 895	the lights crap, im sorry, 1 watt bulbs in only blue and white, its hugely a large part, you should have designed a full spectrum unit from evergrow

12/09/2012, 10:23 AM	#9
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	Above on the sand 30 inches down. Above some Acans doing ok. 24 inches down. Lobo 24 inches down looks awful. Torch seems to be ok. 2 pieces of chalice melted away in 2-3 weeks.

12/09/2012, 10:28 AM	#10
megadeth72 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 444	it's not the light if your keeping other low light corals next right next to lps and the light wont cause them to melt in 2 weeks can you borrow someone else's nitrate/phosphate test kits?

12/09/2012, 11:11 AM	#11
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	Here is a full shot of my tank to get an idea of the light penetration.

12/09/2012, 11:12 AM	#12
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065

12/09/2012, 11:34 AM	#13
nanoreefer1000 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Bay Area,CA Posts: 1,040	Get some Razors, RB fixtures, or make a DIY one

12/09/2012, 04:54 PM	#17
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	Look at the tissue of this Pagoda? It's peeling away.

12/09/2012, 06:03 PM	#18
chadfarmer Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: ST Charles, MO far from nanook Posts: 11,045 Blog Entries: 1	Could be the lights or parameters, if u think it the light swap out 1 to see. Maybe the spectrum moved on the leds, it would be an interesting find __________________ If you think you know the answer than ask 3 more people the question Current Tank Info: 200 Gal RR,ATB medium, 4 AI blue sol,230 LBS LIVE ROCK, no sand , 40 GAL sump, airstar1800, 3 tunze 6105 1- 6205 1-6305, Geo 818, profilux3ex with toys

12/09/2012, 06:50 PM	#19
bhazard451 Registered Member. Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,900	At the very least, you should be running 3 watt leds with optics for enough light 30 inches down. Second, Cool White/Royal Blue leds alone are notoriously horrible at keeping coral. They are missing too much spectrum. So 1 watt leds and CW/RB is a recipe for disaster. Change over to a Maxspect Razor, GHL Mitra, or Radion Pro when they come out. Otherwise, at the very least use updated 3W chinese fixtures which include warm whites, reds, greens, and violets.

12/09/2012, 06:55 PM	#20
megadeth72 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 444	cool white royal blue is used by hundreds of reefers without a problem

12/09/2012, 07:05 PM	#21
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	Would one regular Radion be ok? Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

12/09/2012, 07:30 PM	#23
SPotter Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 5,691	I dont think the lights are necessarily your issue either, while they arent the best I know guys that use the chinese fixtures with no issues. I think you are starving your corals as you said that your po4 and no3 are both at 0. Corals need some nutrients to grow and if you have intense lighting as leds are intense, the corals will burn thru the nutrients very quickly. I use LED's and T5's and in the last 9 months have experienced 2 coral crashes. I racked my bains and drove myself crazy trying to figure out what the problem was. I came up with everything from bacterial infections to bad salt to red bugs/aefw and many other things. I drove my tank for low to no nutrients always measuring 0-2ppm on n03 and <.01ppm po3. Corals did good at first but then as I increased my intensity on the LEDs things would slowly die off. It wasnt until the 2nd time I lost almost all of my corals I was able to put it together that my water was too clean and my lights were too intense. I have since added new corals to my tank, lowered the intensity to a max of 75% on all colors and slowly increased my po3 to .03-.05 and no3 to 5-10ppm. Since doing that my corals look great!!! The colors are amazing, there's noticeable growth and constant PE. While a lot of LED's don't throw off the par numbers that MH and T5's throw off and what everyone is always comparing them too....LED's are an intense light despite lower par numbers. This is just my own personal experience and only my .02 but before you go out and spend $600 on a light, try bringing up your nutrient levels a little and see what happens. __________________ Steve Am I really doing all of this for a fish tank?????? Current Tank Info: 360g Envision Acrylic Tank, Closed Loops, Vectra L1's, MP40QD's, 400w Radiums, Regal 300ext, Dastaco Ext3 CaRx, Controlled by GHL Profilux

12/09/2012, 07:46 PM	#25
DarthSimon King Lineatus has Risen! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Metro Area Posts: 1,065	Spotter, I agree with what you are saying, but even when I had high nitrates, over 80 my LPS looked the same exact way.... I pressume nitrates being 80 would not help the situation either... Fact of the matter is, I have never been able to keep LPS under these lights longer than a month or 2.... I just started back up with LPS after getting my NO3 and NO4 in check... The LPS your seeing is all new....