KH and salt mix

[msbreton]

I just got a new KH test kit and realized by DT is a little lower than I thought (still ok at 8.5) but more interesting is that salt mix is much lower, 6 (Seachem Reef) and my ATO mix is much higher 13. I can only assume I drop KH in the DT at every water change and then slowly recover via my ATO.

Should I be dosing my salt mix up to 9 before the water change (and if so lower my ATO mix down to 9 as well)?

Thanks!

-Mike

[disc1]

You should figure out how much alkalinity the tank consumes and dose that amount in the ATO. The easiest way is to get it to where you want and stop all dosing for a day or two and see how far it drops.

What are you putting in the ATO? What kind of coral load do you have? What lives in this tank?

[msbreton]

Yeah, I get what I should do to the ATO but it'll be a constant battle if the salt mix is so much lower. Every time I do a water change I'll drop KH. Do you dose your salt mix before water changes? Looks like my mix is just low KH wise and I never knew.

Tank has 13 or so fish, most are small and currently just some soft corals. KH is stable every time I test, weekly, but I think what must be going on is a drop with water changes and then a raise via my ATO. I'd ranter them be equal vs one low and one high.

-Mike

-Mike

[disc1]

Originally Posted by msbreton

Yeah, I get what I should do to the ATO but it'll be a constant battle if the salt mix is so much lower. Every time I do a water change I'll drop KH. Do you dose your salt mix before water changes? Looks like my mix is just low KH wise and I never knew.

Tank has 13 or so fish, most are small and currently just some soft corals. KH is stable every time I test, weekly, but I think what must be going on is a drop with water changes and then a raise via my ATO. I'd ranter them be equal vs one low and one high.

-Mike

-Mike

It depends on how far apart the values are and how big the water changes are. A 10% water change with water that's 2dkH lower is only going to drop you by 0.2dkH.

I always have to add a little calcium to my water when I make it up. But I usually just add it to the tank a little later instead of to the change water before the change.

[msbreton]

Tank is 8.5dkH, mix is 6dkH. ~18% water change.

-Mike

[blanden.adam]

Wow, that's a bad batch of salt! Are you mixing at 1.026 sg? Also, what are you using in your topoff to make the alkalinity that level?

[msbreton]

To be fair, the salt mix I'm testing has been sitting for 3 days. Next time I mix up a batch, I'll retest fresh. I use Brightwell Aquatics Alkalin8.3-P to dose my ATO.

-Mike

[blanden.adam]

Careful dosing that by itself (or at all) -- it is an unbalanced additive, so you risk throwing your calcium-alkalinity ratio way out of whack, and its way more expensive than Baking Soda if you are going to go the 2 part route Usually the only thing people put in their top off water is kalkwasser for that reason (it's the only soluble balanced additive that can be delivered via 1 solution). If you are uncomfortable with that, I would consider looking into bulk 2-part. But, as always, that's just my suggestion and you are free to do as you like!

Also, testing after 3 days of good, continuous mixing is actually best practice (or any time over 24 hours really), it allows the water to come into equilibrium with the surrounding air, giving you a more accurate reading for what the water will be like in your tank and more stable water conditions for your tank inhabitants.

Cheers

[msbreton]

hmmmm, I've been dosing my ato mix with this for months at the advice of the manger of my LFS (he's been in the business for 30 yrs). My dkH has been solid and stable since (although a bit lower then I thought it was). BTW, Mg and Ca are also constant and in the correct ranges. The practice seems solid, at least so far.

Thanks!

-Mike

[blanden.adam]

Eh, I'm sorry to say you were misled :/ This practice will only appear to work as long as your calcium demand remains very low. For every 1 dKH unit of alkalinity consumed, only 7 ppm of calcium is consumed, which is below the noise in our test kits. So, your tank appears to consume alkalinity faster than calcium because you just have a MUCH bigger reserve for calcium. When/if coralline takes off or you decide to graduate to more calcium demanding corals, this will become readily apparent.

Also keep in mind, it is in the best interest of your LFS owner to sell products. I don't know what you are paying for the buffer, but I can guarantee it is much more expensive than bulk 2-part supplies. I understand if my word is not enough to convince you, but I would just encourage you to use the wealth of resources available on RC in the form of forums and articles discussing how to maintain proper calcium and alkalinity levels.

Just trying to help!

[Crusinjimbo]

+1!!! Thirty years in retail isn't necessarily the best source of information. You will not go wrong if you follow this forum. Way more impartial experience on here.

[kismetsh]

Originally Posted by msbreton

hmmmm, I've been dosing my ato mix with this for months at the advice of the manger of my LFS (he's been in the business for 30 yrs). My dkH has been solid and stable since (although a bit lower then I thought it was). BTW, Mg and Ca are also constant and in the correct ranges. The practice seems solid, at least so far.

Thanks!

-Mike

I'm not trying to be rude at all but every time I read a comment like this I think to myself "Then why are you asking for help here?" If you believe this person to be an infallible source of aquarium knowledge why not just ask him?

I have been a hobbyist for over 30 years and some of the "best practices" have DRASTICALLY changed over that time. A lot of LFS still recommend cycling with damsels, especially "old timers".

BTW I am not saying you should completely discount this person's advice, I'm just suggesting that you be open-minded in your research and recognize that no single person has all the answers.

Good luck!

[keithhays]

The alkalinity measurement for the salt is meaningless with out the S.G./salinity.

[avelino78]

I was going to start using seachem reef salt it says its DKH is around 10. I'm surprised. Maybe your test is wrong.

[msbreton]

I've tested the salt mix a couple of times with different kits but the mix is a few days old so it might be an invalid test. I'll test again this weekend. I've been using Seachem Reef for about 10 months. Tank is just over 1 year old.
Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate you and these forums. I will check back with my LFS contact but I asked here as well for a couple of reasons. 1. More / combined feedback is better (and I ultimately have to find my own way anyway) 2. I can ask here any time day or night and I have to wait to contact him. By the way, he isn't just a sell it to you guy and in fact I don't buy the chems from him as I buy a lot of stuff online. He knowns this is understands. He also tells me many times NOT to buy something from him as it isn't a right fit for my tank / situation. I've been working with him for a 8+ months and he's never steered me wrong yet. I suspect I've miss-communicated what I'm doing with my ATO mix in this thread. Re: Ca, I don't dose and my Ca remains at 450. Mg is 1350 with weekly dosing. These values have been stable for about 6 months and my coralline algae started really taking off about 3 months ago - with no change in these values or dosing practice.

Again, thanks for everyone's feedback. I'll update when I retest my salt mix (fresh) this weekend.

-Mike

[msbreton]

Just thought I'd update on my dkH salt mix question. I mixed up a fresh batch using Seachem reef salt. About 18 gallons, mixed about 16 hours of constant circulation at 78 degrees. 1.025 (hydrometer). Also, the salt is from a new bucket, thoroughly mixed befor adding to water. Here's the details:
dkH 6
Mg 1400
Ca 450

Mg and Ca are as expected. dKH is low. I'm thinking of switching salt brands unless anyone can comment on how my mixing method might be yielding the low alkalinity.

[jimmy frag]

what do you mean "thoroughly mixed befor adding to water" im doubting two pails are reading 6DKH. no one elce on this forum has had or is having this same issue. im thinking its your testing kit/methods

[msbreton]

I mixed the dry salt mix before adding it to the water (some other posts have talked about heavier elements settling to the bottom of the bucket so I used two buckets to split the 5g of salt and shook both buckets up, stirred the salt, poured back and forth, etc..) So, as far as I can tell, yes two 5g buckets have read 6dkH over 2 separate mixes, using 2 separate test kits (differnet brands) both times. Source water is RODI at 0 TDS.

I agree, something doesn't seem right. I'm letting the mix circuitale over night (heated at 78) could the alk be lost/lowered overnight?

-Mike

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by msbreton

Just thought I'd update on my dkH salt mix question. I mixed up a fresh batch using Seachem reef salt. About 18 gallons, mixed about 16 hours of constant circulation at 78 degrees. 1.025 (hydrometer). Also, the salt is from a new bucket, thoroughly mixed befor adding to water. Here's the details:
dkH 6
Mg 1400
Ca 450

Mg and Ca are as expected. dKH is low. I'm thinking of switching salt brands unless anyone can comment on how my mixing method might be yielding the low alkalinity.

This may help some; it is a response on the seachem site specifically answering this question. I am posting the response from Seachem as is:

"Re: SeaChem Reef Salt - alk testing
MadDogNoz,

Thanks for posting. Depending on your test kit, it may be testing for either 'total alkalinity' or 'carbonate hardness (KH).' Alkalinity is a term often used synonymously with KH, but they are not the same. Alkalinity is a measure of your total acid binding ions, including bicarbonate, carbonate, phosphate, borates, iodates, silicates (and the list goes on). KH is a measure of only your carbonates and bicarbonates. Because of this, you may have a high alkalinity, but a low KH (however you cannot have a high KH and low alkalinity). Since Reef Salt contains borate in addition to carbonates and bicarbonates, you will see an elevated alkalinity, but not necessarily KH. Our ReefStatus: Magnesium and Alkalinity test kit, if you can get your hands on it, allows you to distinguish between total alkalinity, carbonate alkalinity, and borate alkalinity. Unfortunately, other test kits may claim to test for 'Alkalinity' but in reality are only testing KH, since the term is so widely used in place of KH. Rest assured your Reef Salt will contain a superior amount of alkalinity for buffering. I hope this clears up any confusion you may have!"

[msbreton]

Both test kits are for KH. The mixed salt is reading 6 dKH using two different KH test kits.

-Mike

[jimmy frag]

if there is nothing to consume the alk, why would it drop to 6DKH over a 12 or so hour span in a pail. wierd. also on the mixing dry salt thing, never done it. im tagging along. good luck

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by msbreton

Both test kits are for KH. The mixed salt is reading 6 dKH using two different KH test kits.

-Mike

The SeaChem tech seems to be suggesting that if you don't have a test that specifically tests for the items that a Seachem test would test for, you will not get the whole picture. Is one of test kits a Seachem test kit?

btw, this was the question posted to the Seachem's support:

"SeaChem Reef Salt - alk testing
Hello and thank you for the wonderful support system.

I have been using SeaChem Reef Salt since starting my new system 55G cube about 6 months ago.

I am a little perplexed at my KH results. I use an API test kit. I seem to be continuously getting 6 - 7 dKH levels.

Someone mentioned to me the borate in the SC Reefsalt and suggested to either change salt brand or test kit.

SeaChem test kits are not always readily available in Australia and if found, they are priced very high (even on comparison of the US sites where I find the costing is far more comparible to other quality grands). The API kit is new ... while not overly pricey I hate throwing money away (I have done enough of this in this hobby).

Are you able to give some guidance as to the comparison of what the API kit is measuring to how the borate in the salt may be interfering with the result?

I'd love to see a better range of your test kits readily available here but until then, this is what I have to work with. I need to know whether I need to raise my KH or not ... and if so, how much.
__________________
Kind Regards,
Andrea - South Australia"

[msbreton]

Yeah, I had never mixed the dry salt before either, but I thought I'd give it try as there was a similar thread about low KH using Seachem Reef Salt where that was solution (didn't help in my case). I did test for KH about 1 hr, maybe less, after mixing and it came back around 10dKH so I thought the dry mixing was indeed going to help but when I tested again the following morning (about 16 hours later of contant circulation) I found it to be back at the 6dKH reading. BTW, I use the brute cans for my mixing station. In use for about 8 months.

-Mike

[msbreton]

No, I primary use Elos for my test kits but have double checked with an API kit (both KH).

-Mike

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by msbreton

No, I primary use Elos for my test kits but have double checked with an API kit (both KH).

-Mike

I think I would get the Seachem Test kit before adjusting too much or at least give them a call.