Lost my first fish :(

[Deinonych]

Picked up a red firefish from the LFS on Wednesday. I'm nearing the end of my first saltwater build, and my display tank is nearly cycled. I put him in my 20G quarantine tank. He acclimated well and was eating mysis the first day. Yesterday, he was very active and seemed really happy.

This morning he was really listless and seemed disoriented. He didn't seem to be breathing heavily, but he was pressed up in the back corner of the aquarium not moving. I tested my water and these were the results:

NH4: 0
NO2: 0.25
NO3: didn't test due to nitrites testing positive
SG: 1.025
pH: 8.2
Temp: 79

Did a 50% water change to get the nitrites down, although I don't think those levels would be a problem. Unfortunately, he didn't make it.

Any thoughts on what might have caused him to suddenly take a turn for the worst? Really bummed right now.

[MrClam]

Sorry for the loss, always harder to loose a fish than people would think.

How did you acclimate him? How is the QT set up? If it was not a cycled QT you need to do regular water changes to maintain water quality.

I know for the firefish in particular they are very shy and need places to hide in order to limit stress. PVC in a QT can serve this purpose, but caves in rockwork is what they really like. Without this he may have been overly stressed.

Did the fish have any spots? Was he skinny? Any signs of disease?

Sometimes it just boils down to stress from capture/shipping.

[Deinonych]

Thanks MrClam.

I acclimated him using an Acclimate from ReefGently. Acclimation took about 2 hours using this system. SG from LFS was 1.018 so it took a while to get it to 1.025.

I attempted to cycle my QT, but could never get the nitrites to go away completely. They always showed about 0.1. I did an 80% WC before I got the fish, but there were still some nitrites present according to both API and Salifert.

I have two PVC elbows in the QT, and he would go into one of them at night.

I didn't see any signs of disease. He was the most active in the tank at the LFS - there were about 6-7 other firefish in the tank with him.

I've done a 100% WC and wiped down the tank with a paper towel before adding new SW. I guess it's back to square one.

[mcgyvr]

Hopefully that will teach you to rush a cycle. Patience doesn't kill fish.

Are you using RO/DI water?
Are you testing the water before adding salt?
Test the nitrates.
Stop doing so many water changes IMO.

[Deinonych]

Yes, using BRS RO/DI with chloramine filter. Tests 0 TDS using TDS meter before adding salt.

I let the QT cycle for more than a month, and even then nitrites would never go to zero. I thought I was OK since ammonia was at 0. I guess that wasn't long enough.

[coralsnaked]

In a QT I will usually use one of the instant cycling bacterial supplements to finish the cycle just prior to adding fish (StartSmart for saltwater). It would help eliminate that Nitrite problem. As well as maintenance dose when performing water change in QT while fish present. Possible pH problem and low oxygen saturation.

Merry Skerry

[Deinonych]

Thanks. I had used Dr. Tim's One and Only when I started up the QT, so I expected it to take care of the cycle. Perhaps my pH did get out of whack at some point. I'm running a small powerhead (Tunze 6015) to keep aeration up.

Maybe it's just bad luck.

[gone fishin]

Sometimes when we search for a cause to a fish loss we forget that sometimes they just die. You may have done nothing wrong. just my 2 cents

[sleepydoc]

If your NH4 was 0, it wasn't a cycling issue. It would be unusual for a firefish to build up that much ammonia in just a couple days unless it was a pretty small tank.

Is it possible it was collected with cyanide? How long had it been at the LFS?

[Deinonych]

I suppose it's possible that it was collected with cyanide...I hope not. It had been at the LFS at least a week, maybe longer. I will swing by that LFS tomorrow and see if they have had any problems with them. Probably won't get another one there, though.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Deinonych

Thanks. I had used Dr. Tim's One and Only when I started up the QT, so I expected it to take care of the cycle. Perhaps my pH did get out of whack at some point. I'm running a small powerhead (Tunze 6015) to keep aeration up.

Maybe it's just bad luck.

I am sorry to hear of the loss, but this is better learned in the QT. It is the exception to the rule when I hear someone had a fish die in QT, because most will lose a tank full instead because they didn't setup a QT. You did good even though the fish died.

I assume you were cycling with Dr. Tim's that you were using ammonium or ammonia?

This issue is that nitrites can and do regularly take almost 3 months to zero out on this method. It is what is supposed to happen. There is a shorter method where you add the bacteria and then add the fish, but this assumes a full size display tank and 1 or 2 fish in the whole thing. It still takes the same amount of time, but you have fish in the tank slowly bringing up food for the bacteria and radically dispersing the nitrite and ammonia. PH can also get quite low during this process.

Get a sponge filter with 4 or 5 extra sponges. Keep the sponges in your sump or whatever you are using for the biofilter. When you cycle the display, you will also cycle the the sponge filters, assuming dry rock, sand, and Dr. Tims that is 3 months from now. Live rock will make it quicker, but more expensive and risky.

You need to use the sponges as the ready made biofilter for your QT. If you have to treat for anything, throw the sponge away, if not, return to biofilter.

This is hobby of patience and learning above all else.

[Deinonych]

Thank you Keith. That makes me feel a little better. Yes, I was using ammonium chloride to feed the bacteria from Dr. Tim's.

I'm using an Aqueon HOB filter right now. I have a piece of filter floss in it, along with a media bag full of ceramic rings. I was led to believe this was a good method since the ceramic rings provide good surface area for the beneficial bacteria to grow. I plan to keep another media bag full of discs in my sump long term. I'm hesitant to change to a sponge filter now since I do have some bacteria growing on the discs (or, I should hope so by now -- it's been over a month since I seeded the QT with Dr. Tim's).

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Deinonych

Thank you Keith. That makes me feel a little better. Yes, I was using ammonium chloride to feed the bacteria from Dr. Tim's.

I'm using an Aqueon HOB filter right now. I have a piece of filter floss in it, along with a media bag full of ceramic rings. I was led to believe this was a good method since the ceramic rings provide good surface area for the beneficial bacteria to grow. I plan to keep another media bag full of discs in my sump long term. I'm hesitant to change to a sponge filter now since I do have some bacteria growing on the discs (or, I should hope so by now -- it's been over a month since I seeded the QT with Dr. Tim's).

I think that surface area will work as well. The thing that is going to make it difficult is that if you have to treat a fish in the QT, you will end up with the rings being exposed to what you are treating with and they may no longer be usable for the next item you need to put in the QT, depending on the treatment i.e. they are microscopically porous. It really does take 2 to 3 months..3 months in my case for the slower growing nitrite consuming bacteria to going enough to consume the nitrite quickly. They are not really in the Dr. Tim's to start with or at least not the right state anyway.

I would not change what you have in the QT at this moment. If you are going to use the rings, I would keep extra in display sump just in case you need them.

[EllieSuz]

It's better to match your QT with the LFS water than acclimate the fish for the length of time it takes to raise salinity that much. I would suggest that you lower the salinity of your quarantine tank and drip acclimate from the QT for a half hour or so. Over the course of the quarantine period, perform water changes using water from your display tank. By the time the new fish is ready to move to the big tank (minimum of six weeks), water in both tanks is identical in every way and it's very easy to transfer the new fish to the display.

[markandamber11]

after doing this for 8 years ive come to the conclusion fish die sometimes for the craziest reasons.. and trying to figure out why sometimes just made me go crazy... lol

[Deinonych]

Originally Posted by EllieSuz

It's better to match your QT with the LFS water than acclimate the fish for the length of time it takes to raise salinity that much. I would suggest that you lower the salinity of your quarantine tank and drip acclimate from the QT for a half hour or so. Over the course of the quarantine period, perform water changes using water from your display tank. By the time the new fish is ready to move to the big tank (minimum of six weeks), water in both tanks is identical in every way and it's very easy to transfer the new fish to the display.

Sounds like a good plan. I think I will use that protocol. Acclimation makes me really nervous.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Deinonych

Sounds like a good plan. I think I will use that protocol. Acclimation makes me really nervous.

Or..switch to a vendor who is not using near hyposalinity. Imagine how many fish must die where the aquarist is not as adept in these areas.

[Deinonych]

Originally Posted by keithhays

Or..switch to a vendor who is not using near hyposalinity. Imagine how many fish must die where the aquarist is not as adept in these areas.

Very good point!