Suggestion on Heavy Duty Protein Skimmer..

sassAwrasse · 02/11/2013, 09:17 PM

For all you equipment people. . . we need some advice on a skimmer. It is going to be for our clownfish growout system. The total water volume is going to be about 340 gallons. The system is going to have a serious bioload, so we're looking for something that can handle a bit more than our total water volume. We would love some suggestions and appreciate the help. Thank you in advance!

sassAwrasse · 02/11/2013, 09:42 PM

someone suggested an e.t.s.s. system.
down draft.

I'm just not sure how large I should go..

jabbott · 02/11/2013, 09:52 PM

e.t.s.s. is old school tech. And it uses big power sucking pumps to work which only makes your electric bill higher.

I'd go with a Super Reef Octopus 5000 Internal
http://coralvue.com/sro5000int/
I have personaly owned this skimmer and it is a beast for the money.
Or if u need an external
http://coralvue.com/sro5000ext/

HaroldT · 02/11/2013, 10:08 PM

I would go with an Aqua Euro 400 In Sump Skimmer
http://www.reefgeek.com/filtration/p...p-aes1107.html

Or an Aqua Euro 400 Cone
http://www.fishtanksdirect.com/AquaE...kimmer400.aspx

I have used the Aqua Euro 250 gallon skimmer for several years and love it.

Well built with a good quality, acrylic body. Built like a tank. Great for pulling out a bunch of gunk from your tank.

sassAwrasse · 02/11/2013, 11:57 PM

what are thoughts on internal vs external?

Timber77 · 02/12/2013, 01:11 AM

i would say both, if your in a serious grow out setup. run a newer needle wheel type skimmer thats energy efficient and get a big etss or something along those lines to run for say weekly maintaince....the energy savings are worth it, and older etss can be had very cheap, they had a few other brands...the ones with the double injectors were all awesome but you need pressure pump like iwaki 70 or 100. or another old school but very good one it the big tall life reef skimmers they are very powerful if set up right (even then they are very ineffient on electic bill,...more for occasional stirrup the whole system and watch it foam right out.

GSMguy · 02/12/2013, 06:28 AM

Just get one big needlewheel with a good pump , Laguna, bubble blaster, or waveline. Rated for 500g or more.

The idea that you need both is silly, if the needlewheel is good enough you won't need anything else.

keithhays · 02/12/2013, 06:47 AM

I just happened to have posted this to another question related to a particular need, but maybe it applies here as well, I will try to strip out specific references to the system:

"There can a be a massive difference between the needlewheel skimmers, beckets, and induction, then you have the small industrial recirculating skimmers. I think at the size of system you are looking at, gph/gpm and dwell time are your deciding factors. The numbers below are my overall take and not some I have done a lot of measuring on though I have done some calculations on the the first two ranges and the ranges for the high end systems are always published. You will want to be able to calculate actual flow (not pump rating) through the skimmer and dwell time before make a decision.

On small systems 180 gallons or less , the power efficiency is probably the determining factor. 10 to 15 sec dwell on 100 to 400 gallons per hour. This is your needlewheel area. Maintenance for these include cleaning the unit 3 times a week and decalcifying the needlewheel monthly. Dwell time and flow are preset with design. Ozone hookups are generally not available and the units would likely be destroyed by it.

In mid-range 180 to 1000, you begin to start thinking about how much water can flow through the unit and still have a decent dwell time i.e. you need to process a lot more water and you would like to get a little more dwell time.
500 to 1000 gph with 20 to 30 second dwell time. Maintenance varies depending on type. Pumps in this range can be, but usually are not needlewheel because of the large flows and pressures needed. For non-needlewheel systems, pump maintenance is yearly. The unit itself generally requires no maintenance (exception for becket systems). Dwell time and flow is still pretty much preset with design. Some models have optional ozone hookups.
These are the AQUAC and E.T.S.S of the world in the higher end models. Power consumption starts to take a back to seat to overall filtering needs.

Next would be small industrial recirculating skimmers. Recirculation is not however the primary concern, it is incidental to the designs available. With these you will generally have the ability to control dwell time with variable flow. They will have multiple pumps. Power becomes a tertiary concern to control of the unit. The dwell times ranges can vary, from 1.5 minutes to well over 12 minutes as you get in the higher end models and you begin to measure in GPM instead of GPH. These generally will have the ability to be shipped with an ozone system that is gauged to work with the unit. There are only a few vendors for these and you likely know who they are.

Most people will shell out nearly a $1000 for a "good" skimmer without knowing anything other than someone said this is a good skimmer and vendor ratings given in tank size. On the hobby skimmers flow and dwell time are never even published and they are the deciding factor on whether they will do what you need them to do."

jabbott · 02/12/2013, 08:56 AM

I disagree with that. I hav have owned aquac ev skimmers and I would never recommend them to anyone.
I had an ev1000 on a 450 gallon system and replaced it with a sro5000sss and never looked back. The sro destroyed it in performance, used way less electricity and when I fed the ev would take a couple hours to recover, the sro would take 20 mins!
OI also have replaced many customers skimmers with new needle wheel ones and they were all happy with the performance over what they had.
I do like recirc skimmers because you can control the flow through. But they are also a lot more money.

jabbott · 02/12/2013, 09:05 AM

And i have no idea where you get that they need to be cleaned 3 times a week! ro recommends cleaning the collection cup once a week which is pretty standard for any skimmer and cleaning the pump every 4 months and the body every 6 months.

keithhays · 02/12/2013, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jabbott

And i have no idea where you get that they need to be cleaned 3 times a week! ro recommends cleaning the collection cup once a week which is pretty standard for any skimmer and cleaning the pump every 4 months and the body every 6 months.

Sorry, that was supposed to be the cup not the whole unit. It was early in the morning. The overall point is that, the amount and type maintenance changes with different types of skimmers, not that one is better. Some are better in given situations for a given set of needs.

Full disclosure: I have owned many different types of skimmers including needlewheel. I have had good results with them as well as my current AQUAC 400. I haven't had the issues that many have with adjustments. I adjusted twice: once after the cycle on my system finished at which time it had been running on the system full throttle back into the sump for 3 months. And once again when I began carbon dosing. I have, so far, not had to adjust it again.

This is what is looks like except when I dump in fresh seafood which it will take a couple hours to recover:

keithhays · 02/12/2013, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jabbott

I disagree with that. I hav have owned aquac ev skimmers and I would never recommend them to anyone.
I had an ev1000 on a 450 gallon system and replaced it with a sro5000sss and never looked back. The sro destroyed it in performance, used way less electricity and when I fed the ev would take a couple hours to recover, the sro would take 20 mins!
OI also have replaced many customers skimmers with new needle wheel ones and they were all happy with the performance over what they had.
I do like recirc skimmers because you can control the flow through. But they are also a lot more money.

I hope you don't mind, I will use your reply to respond a little further on the overall idea.

I have no doubt this is true. Again, there many positives and negatives to take into account. One like you say might be quicker recovery time.
What I am suggesting is that when deciding what to buy, that regardless of the other pieces of information that you may want to know about, the primary one is dwell time and flow within the system. I have seen full length threads on bubble size, and next to nothing on these items which are your only objective point of comparison for performance.

For instance, Lets say you are looking at 2 different brands of needlewheel skimmers both say that are rated for the system you intend to purchase and you have seen plenty of good reviews for both, both have excellent customer service and are similar in price. You calculate the dwell time for skimmer1 and it dwells at 450 GPH for 18 seconds, and skimmer2 dwell at 450 gph for 28 seconds. Which one would you buy?

Now lets say the system you are looking at putting these is 1800 gallons. Would you buy either one of them? Probably not.

Full disclosure: I have owned many different types of skimmers including needlewheel. I have had good results with them as well as my current AQUAC 400. I haven't had the issues that many have with adjustments. I adjusted twice: once after the cycle on my system finished at which time it had been running on the system full throttle back into the sump for 3 months. And once again when I began carbon dosing. I have, so far, not had to adjust it again.

sassAwrasse · 02/12/2013, 11:36 AM

someone on another forum said that I need to get something that is rated for more than 400 gallons (my total system is 340 gallons) due to the extremely heavy bioload I'll have. If I have a proper skimmer, does this still ring true?

keithhays · 02/12/2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sassAwrasse

someone on another forum said that I need to get something that is rated for more than 400 gallons (my total system is 340 gallons) due to the extremely heavy bioload I'll have. If I have a proper skimmer, does this still ring true?

There is no consistency or standard for the ratings on protein skimmers. Most do not rate for heavy bioload (just from experience) , in fact I am not really sure what they use to rate their systems. They will however give a range many times such as 400 to 700 gallons. I would find one where the minimum is 400 gallons and the maximum goes significantly higher.

jabbott · 02/12/2013, 01:29 PM

I would say something over 500g rating like gsmguy said. or if the skimmer has a range of tank size go with the smaller one which is their equivalent of a heavy bioload.

sassAwrasse · 02/12/2013, 01:36 PM

decisions, decisions.

I'm thinking about something around the 500g range. That gives an extra 160g on top of our total volume to account for the extra bioload. Having said that, alot of the skimmers I've looked at so far are in a range (ex. 400-800g) after the 300g mark... So it's deciding what's going to be the best workhorse and what can fit into our budget.
trying to buy used to help with the cost but don't have alot of time either. growout tanks need to be setup asap.

thank you for all the input thus far!!

keithhays · 02/12/2013, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sassAwrasse

decisions, decisions.

I'm thinking about something around the 500g range. That gives an extra 160g on top of our total volume to account for the extra bioload. Having said that, alot of the skimmers I've looked at so far are in a range (ex. 400-800g) after the 300g mark... So it's deciding what's going to be the best workhorse and what can fit into our budget.
trying to buy used to help with the cost but don't have alot of time either. growout tanks need to be setup asap.

thank you for all the input thus far!!

Which ones are at the top of the list?

sassAwrasse · 02/13/2013, 11:16 AM

looking at :

super reef octopus 6000sss
(and a few other reef octopus models rated for at least 500g)

aquac ev-1000 w/JG fitting

Also looking at Bubble Magus 300pro, 600pro, bmh800

ETSS XR 1000 or higher

Trying to narrow it down further, but in the end it's going to come down to budget and if we can find it used.

wmilas · 02/13/2013, 12:34 PM

I run a fairly large (1000 gallon) home system. From past experience, I mostly agree with keithhays points.

If this is just a ~400 gallon FOWLR then you can stick with the higher end "residential" needlewheel options and be fine.

Its not a reef system and doesn't need to be stripped completely clean.

If you were running a 800+ gallon heavy bio load reef system there isn't a single "residential" unit that can cut it long term,... I know, I've tried nearly all of them

sassAwrasse · 02/15/2013, 01:22 PM

Thanks. It's not just a regular "fowlr." It is a growout system for clownfish, hundreds of clownfish at a time. That's why we were going for something that could handle a heavier bioload. Think we found something used on the forum...an etss 1400. We'll see.

captc07 · 02/23/2013, 05:02 PM

ETSS 1400 fell through....now we are looking at an MTC HSA-3000 run with either a panworld200 or an iwaki 100rlt. Any thoughts on this set up?

captc07 · 02/23/2013, 08:20 PM

Any help is greatly appreciated

nikon187 · 02/23/2013, 09:39 PM

honestly i would just do the super reef octopus 6000 and be done with it.

jabbott · 02/23/2013, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikon187

honestly i would just do the super reef octopus 6000 and be done with it.

I second that

keithhays · 02/24/2013, 06:13 AM

I haven't seen these before, but they appear to have the same basic setup as the ETSS. I think my only reservation, which is the same for the ETSS, is the cleaning of the injectors. It should certainly be large enough. I would find at least one person who is using it or at least see it in action somewhere. The vendor should be able to supply a list of people or more likely businesses that are using it.

02/11/2013, 09:17 PM	#1
sassAwrasse Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,191	Suggestion on Heavy Duty Protein Skimmer.. For all you equipment people. . . we need some advice on a skimmer. It is going to be for our clownfish growout system. The total water volume is going to be about 340 gallons. The system is going to have a serious bioload, so we're looking for something that can handle a bit more than our total water volume. We would love some suggestions and appreciate the help. Thank you in advance!

02/12/2013, 06:28 AM	#7
GSMguy Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 17,420	Just get one big needlewheel with a good pump , Laguna, bubble blaster, or waveline. Rated for 500g or more. The idea that you need both is silly, if the needlewheel is good enough you won't need anything else. __________________ Nick. Conehead. Shallow Reef club. Current Tank Info: 48"x27"x14" Envision Acrylic rimless, 6x39w ATi Sunpower, Custom ATB Deluxe Skimmer, 4x tunze nano stream,ATB flowstar 1500, ACJR, Tunze osmolator.

02/12/2013, 06:47 AM	#8
keithhays Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,259	I just happened to have posted this to another question related to a particular need, but maybe it applies here as well, I will try to strip out specific references to the system: "There can a be a massive difference between the needlewheel skimmers, beckets, and induction, then you have the small industrial recirculating skimmers. I think at the size of system you are looking at, gph/gpm and dwell time are your deciding factors. The numbers below are my overall take and not some I have done a lot of measuring on though I have done some calculations on the the first two ranges and the ranges for the high end systems are always published. You will want to be able to calculate actual flow (not pump rating) through the skimmer and dwell time before make a decision. On small systems 180 gallons or less , the power efficiency is probably the determining factor. 10 to 15 sec dwell on 100 to 400 gallons per hour. This is your needlewheel area. Maintenance for these include cleaning the unit 3 times a week and decalcifying the needlewheel monthly. Dwell time and flow are preset with design. Ozone hookups are generally not available and the units would likely be destroyed by it. In mid-range 180 to 1000, you begin to start thinking about how much water can flow through the unit and still have a decent dwell time i.e. you need to process a lot more water and you would like to get a little more dwell time. 500 to 1000 gph with 20 to 30 second dwell time. Maintenance varies depending on type. Pumps in this range can be, but usually are not needlewheel because of the large flows and pressures needed. For non-needlewheel systems, pump maintenance is yearly. The unit itself generally requires no maintenance (exception for becket systems). Dwell time and flow is still pretty much preset with design. Some models have optional ozone hookups. These are the AQUAC and E.T.S.S of the world in the higher end models. Power consumption starts to take a back to seat to overall filtering needs. Next would be small industrial recirculating skimmers. Recirculation is not however the primary concern, it is incidental to the designs available. With these you will generally have the ability to control dwell time with variable flow. They will have multiple pumps. Power becomes a tertiary concern to control of the unit. The dwell times ranges can vary, from 1.5 minutes to well over 12 minutes as you get in the higher end models and you begin to measure in GPM instead of GPH. These generally will have the ability to be shipped with an ozone system that is gauged to work with the unit. There are only a few vendors for these and you likely know who they are. Most people will shell out nearly a $1000 for a "good" skimmer without knowing anything other than someone said this is a good skimmer and vendor ratings given in tank size. On the hobby skimmers flow and dwell time are never even published and they are the deciding factor on whether they will do what you need them to do." Last edited by keithhays; 02/12/2013 at 07:02 AM.

02/12/2013, 01:36 PM	#16
sassAwrasse Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,191	decisions, decisions. I'm thinking about something around the 500g range. That gives an extra 160g on top of our total volume to account for the extra bioload. Having said that, alot of the skimmers I've looked at so far are in a range (ex. 400-800g) after the 300g mark... So it's deciding what's going to be the best workhorse and what can fit into our budget. trying to buy used to help with the cost but don't have alot of time either. growout tanks need to be setup asap. thank you for all the input thus far!! Last edited by sassAwrasse; 02/12/2013 at 01:36 PM. Reason: more text

02/13/2013, 12:34 PM	#19
wmilas Keep magnets 9" apart! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lemont, Il Posts: 1,023	I run a fairly large (1000 gallon) home system. From past experience, I mostly agree with keithhays points. If this is just a ~400 gallon FOWLR then you can stick with the higher end "residential" needlewheel options and be fine. Its not a reef system and doesn't need to be stripped completely clean. If you were running a 800+ gallon heavy bio load reef system there isn't a single "residential" unit that can cut it long term,... I know, I've tried nearly all of them __________________ 120x36x30 acrylic display, 1000 gallon sps with lots o fish

02/11/2013, 09:42 PM	#2
sassAwrasse Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,191	someone suggested an e.t.s.s. system. down draft. I'm just not sure how large I should go..

02/11/2013, 09:52 PM	#3
jabbott Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Staten Island, NY Posts: 181	e.t.s.s. is old school tech. And it uses big power sucking pumps to work which only makes your electric bill higher. I'd go with a Super Reef Octopus 5000 Internal http://coralvue.com/sro5000int/ I have personaly owned this skimmer and it is a beast for the money. Or if u need an external http://coralvue.com/sro5000ext/

02/11/2013, 10:08 PM	#4
HaroldT Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Fresno, California Posts: 582	I would go with an Aqua Euro 400 In Sump Skimmer http://www.reefgeek.com/filtration/p...p-aes1107.html Or an Aqua Euro 400 Cone http://www.fishtanksdirect.com/AquaE...kimmer400.aspx I have used the Aqua Euro 250 gallon skimmer for several years and love it. Well built with a good quality, acrylic body. Built like a tank. Great for pulling out a bunch of gunk from your tank.

02/11/2013, 11:57 PM	#5
sassAwrasse Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,191	what are thoughts on internal vs external?

02/12/2013, 01:11 AM	#6
Timber77 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 754	i would say both, if your in a serious grow out setup. run a newer needle wheel type skimmer thats energy efficient and get a big etss or something along those lines to run for say weekly maintaince....the energy savings are worth it, and older etss can be had very cheap, they had a few other brands...the ones with the double injectors were all awesome but you need pressure pump like iwaki 70 or 100. or another old school but very good one it the big tall life reef skimmers they are very powerful if set up right (even then they are very ineffient on electic bill,...more for occasional stirrup the whole system and watch it foam right out.

02/12/2013, 08:56 AM	#9
jabbott Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Staten Island, NY Posts: 181	I disagree with that. I hav have owned aquac ev skimmers and I would never recommend them to anyone. I had an ev1000 on a 450 gallon system and replaced it with a sro5000sss and never looked back. The sro destroyed it in performance, used way less electricity and when I fed the ev would take a couple hours to recover, the sro would take 20 mins! OI also have replaced many customers skimmers with new needle wheel ones and they were all happy with the performance over what they had. I do like recirc skimmers because you can control the flow through. But they are also a lot more money.

02/12/2013, 09:05 AM	#10
jabbott Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Staten Island, NY Posts: 181	And i have no idea where you get that they need to be cleaned 3 times a week! ro recommends cleaning the collection cup once a week which is pretty standard for any skimmer and cleaning the pump every 4 months and the body every 6 months.

02/12/2013, 11:36 AM	#13
sassAwrasse Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,191	someone on another forum said that I need to get something that is rated for more than 400 gallons (my total system is 340 gallons) due to the extremely heavy bioload I'll have. If I have a proper skimmer, does this still ring true?

02/12/2013, 01:29 PM	#15
jabbott Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Staten Island, NY Posts: 181	I would say something over 500g rating like gsmguy said. or if the skimmer has a range of tank size go with the smaller one which is their equivalent of a heavy bioload.

02/13/2013, 11:16 AM	#18
sassAwrasse Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,191	looking at : super reef octopus 6000sss (and a few other reef octopus models rated for at least 500g) aquac ev-1000 w/JG fitting Also looking at Bubble Magus 300pro, 600pro, bmh800 ETSS XR 1000 or higher Trying to narrow it down further, but in the end it's going to come down to budget and if we can find it used.

02/15/2013, 01:22 PM	#20
sassAwrasse Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,191	Thanks. It's not just a regular "fowlr." It is a growout system for clownfish, hundreds of clownfish at a time. That's why we were going for something that could handle a heavier bioload. Think we found something used on the forum...an etss 1400. We'll see.

02/23/2013, 05:02 PM	#21
captc07 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 625	ETSS 1400 fell through....now we are looking at an MTC HSA-3000 run with either a panworld200 or an iwaki 100rlt. Any thoughts on this set up?

02/23/2013, 08:20 PM	#22
captc07 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 625	Any help is greatly appreciated

02/23/2013, 09:39 PM	#23
nikon187 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 4,717	honestly i would just do the super reef octopus 6000 and be done with it. __________________ ----------------- Current Tanks: New 210 custom 84 x 24 x 24, 60g sump, SWC 250 extreme with bubble blaster 5000, 2 vortech mp40, 2 vortech mp10, 12 T5, Water blaster 5000, warner marine bio pellets, 60g clownfish cube, red carpet anemone with a 25g sump,SRO octopus 1000sss, 250w radium, lumenarc large.

02/24/2013, 06:13 AM	#25
keithhays Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,259	I haven't seen these before, but they appear to have the same basic setup as the ETSS. I think my only reservation, which is the same for the ETSS, is the cleaning of the injectors. It should certainly be large enough. I would find at least one person who is using it or at least see it in action somewhere. The vendor should be able to supply a list of people or more likely businesses that are using it.