Sump Design

jhaimes · 02/13/2013, 07:19 PM

Ok everyone. DIY sumps are all over the place and I am sure there are many different versions. I just really have a question regarding this thought...The "norm" from reading and such has been 3 compartments. skimmer, fuge, return. Am I right? What if I put the Skimmer in with the return pump? The flow from the tank comes to the fuge, the fuge would be much larger, then goes thru the baffles and hits the skimmer and return. From what I have been told the skimmer only gets about 10% or so of the water that hits it from the tank before it flows to the fuge. Is this way of thinking ok? Would there be any issues with it? Please let me know from the more experience guys out there. I have a 75 gallon that I want to make a sump for my 225. I have the baffles ready to go in but want as big of a fuge as large as I can get. Is the idea of the skimmer in the return doable? Thanks

StevieD · 02/13/2013, 07:29 PM

One problem I can think of with putting the skimmer in with the return is all the micro bubbles youll dump into your DT...All the baffles you put in between the drain and the return kind of filter those bubbles out before they would get to your return. Im sure someone else will chime in but thats what Ive learned so far...HTH

jhaimes · 02/13/2013, 09:22 PM

so would 12 inches for the skimmer and return section and around 15 inches for the fuge be enough? Is a 15 inch fuge large enough?

klwheat · 02/14/2013, 09:09 AM

that should work well. As above, the skimmer (especially for that large a tank) is going to produce tons of bubbles that would drive you crazy in the return section.

Toddrtrex · 02/14/2013, 01:17 PM

Do not put your skimmer in the return section. The main issue isn't the micro-bubbles, but the fact that the water level in the return section fluctuates. Put the skimmer in the first section, so that the water levels stays constant -- water fluctuations will greatly affect the performance of the skimmer.

kclewis · 02/14/2013, 06:35 PM

Flow through the fuge should be slow. I would split off your return pump and use it as a feed for the fuge instead of the overflow.

jhaimes · 02/14/2013, 07:31 PM

can you explain a bit more what you mean Kclewis?

frog.pauley · 02/14/2013, 07:39 PM

L/R chamber skimmer
middle chamber return
opp L/R chamber fuge
Run drain line to skimmer chamber, over flow to return, split/manifold off of your return line to the fuge chamber. Place a ball/gate valve in the line to said fuge. This way you can control the flow through the fuge are. If your return runs to the fuge the gph through would hinder the fuge performance. Water needs to move slowly through the fuge so cheato, rock, dsb, or whatever can be maximized.

jhaimes · 02/14/2013, 07:48 PM

makes better sense thanks frog...and the flow from the fuge goes into the return and the process starts all over right?

kclewis · 02/14/2013, 08:20 PM

This is mine follows frog's comments

kclewis · 02/14/2013, 08:28 PM

Saltwater_Biker · 02/14/2013, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kclewis

This is mine follows frog's comments

I made the exact setup, but was going to split the drain to skimmer and a valve to refuge. Is your way better?

kclewis · 02/15/2013, 07:36 AM

I run a Herbie style overflow. I think a valve to the fuge would make things more complicated in regards to maintaining water height in the overflow. Only thing I would do different, and I may still do, is run the media reactor off my return pump. It's a mag 18 for a 90 gallon tank. More than enough flow to do so. I would think it would be ok to do what you are wanting to do but would definitely keep an idea of how it will effect your overflow rate.

frog.pauley · 02/15/2013, 09:28 AM

In regards to running a valve to the fuge....Been there and it doesnt work so well. I tried it and it is a pain to get set right. Not saying that someone who really wanted to do so couldnt, just time with aggravation than enjoyment

On a side not, I am building a 15 right now and I am having a hard time find a sump tank that isnt tempered! Really wanting to use an external pump to beat the heat of summer a little better....I'm the minority in WV, and a trying to find a sump a tank big enough to handle equipment and folw is being a pain!

kclewis · 02/15/2013, 10:00 AM

Frog, you should be able to drill the sides just fine. Typically it's the bottom of tanks where you run into problems. I just drilled several 10 gallon tanks over the weekend with no issues.

jhaimes · 02/15/2013, 11:16 PM

What is the advantage of an external return pump? I was thinking of getting a Mag 18 for my return but had never thought about external before. Persuade me!

frog.pauley · 02/16/2013, 01:15 PM

Mag pumps are great! I will never down them. Some people will tell you they are loud...juseus couldnt satisfy these people. I would use one, but I do not have AC! I am building my new tank to handle the heat of summer without running my chiller. My previous setup was a 75 with halides and PC actinics. It ran a mag7 and Korralia 4's. My tank temps in the summer, with the chiller, could hit 90 in a quick minute! So, my 150 I am gonna try to run as cool as possible. I would think you would be better suited with a dart for return if you wanted external. I am pretty sure in the end, if you went that way, you would be able to have your return, your fuge, any reactor, any other secondary pump run off the manifold of a dart. So it really saves alot of $ and space. Lower energy consumption, more performance. As for the Mag, they do get pretty warm, they do move alot of water, they are not loud in any form. My skimmer was more audible than the mag7. Also with the external, the heat transfer is minimal since its not under water.
As for dilling the side of a 55....Not a good idea! Most are tempered all around. I am not sure why the 55 gallon tank is this way, but I found out the hard way. Had 1 explode in the drill press! lol

02/13/2013, 07:19 PM	#1
jhaimes Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 78	Sump Design Ok everyone. DIY sumps are all over the place and I am sure there are many different versions. I just really have a question regarding this thought...The "norm" from reading and such has been 3 compartments. skimmer, fuge, return. Am I right? What if I put the Skimmer in with the return pump? The flow from the tank comes to the fuge, the fuge would be much larger, then goes thru the baffles and hits the skimmer and return. From what I have been told the skimmer only gets about 10% or so of the water that hits it from the tank before it flows to the fuge. Is this way of thinking ok? Would there be any issues with it? Please let me know from the more experience guys out there. I have a 75 gallon that I want to make a sump for my 225. I have the baffles ready to go in but want as big of a fuge as large as I can get. Is the idea of the skimmer in the return doable? Thanks

02/14/2013, 09:09 AM	#4
klwheat Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 676	that should work well. As above, the skimmer (especially for that large a tank) is going to produce tons of bubbles that would drive you crazy in the return section. __________________ 180 Gallon Mixed reef President/Co-founder Running4Trisomy A Butterfly's Touch

02/14/2013, 01:17 PM	#5
Toddrtrex Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Carol Stream, IL Posts: 23,162	Do not put your skimmer in the return section. The main issue isn't the micro-bubbles, but the fact that the water level in the return section fluctuates. Put the skimmer in the first section, so that the water levels stays constant -- water fluctuations will greatly affect the performance of the skimmer. __________________ Click my name and then "visit toddrtrex's homepage" for tank pictures Current Tank Info: 210g reef and 65g reef

02/13/2013, 07:29 PM	#2
StevieD Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Sylvania, Oh Posts: 391	One problem I can think of with putting the skimmer in with the return is all the micro bubbles youll dump into your DT...All the baffles you put in between the drain and the return kind of filter those bubbles out before they would get to your return. Im sure someone else will chime in but thats what Ive learned so far...HTH

02/13/2013, 09:22 PM	#3
jhaimes Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 78	so would 12 inches for the skimmer and return section and around 15 inches for the fuge be enough? Is a 15 inch fuge large enough?

02/14/2013, 06:35 PM	#6
kclewis REEFER Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Beautiful Bargersville, IN Posts: 383	Flow through the fuge should be slow. I would split off your return pump and use it as a feed for the fuge instead of the overflow.

02/14/2013, 07:31 PM	#7
jhaimes Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 78	can you explain a bit more what you mean Kclewis?

02/14/2013, 07:39 PM	#8
frog.pauley Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: west virginia Posts: 555	L/R chamber skimmer middle chamber return opp L/R chamber fuge Run drain line to skimmer chamber, over flow to return, split/manifold off of your return line to the fuge chamber. Place a ball/gate valve in the line to said fuge. This way you can control the flow through the fuge are. If your return runs to the fuge the gph through would hinder the fuge performance. Water needs to move slowly through the fuge so cheato, rock, dsb, or whatever can be maximized.

02/14/2013, 07:48 PM	#9
jhaimes Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 78	makes better sense thanks frog...and the flow from the fuge goes into the return and the process starts all over right?

02/14/2013, 08:20 PM	#10
kclewis REEFER Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Beautiful Bargersville, IN Posts: 383	This is mine follows frog's comments

02/14/2013, 08:28 PM	#11
kclewis REEFER Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Beautiful Bargersville, IN Posts: 383

02/15/2013, 07:36 AM	#13
kclewis REEFER Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Beautiful Bargersville, IN Posts: 383	I run a Herbie style overflow. I think a valve to the fuge would make things more complicated in regards to maintaining water height in the overflow. Only thing I would do different, and I may still do, is run the media reactor off my return pump. It's a mag 18 for a 90 gallon tank. More than enough flow to do so. I would think it would be ok to do what you are wanting to do but would definitely keep an idea of how it will effect your overflow rate.

02/15/2013, 09:28 AM	#14
frog.pauley Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: west virginia Posts: 555	In regards to running a valve to the fuge....Been there and it doesnt work so well. I tried it and it is a pain to get set right. Not saying that someone who really wanted to do so couldnt, just time with aggravation than enjoyment On a side not, I am building a 15 right now and I am having a hard time find a sump tank that isnt tempered! Really wanting to use an external pump to beat the heat of summer a little better....I'm the minority in WV, and a trying to find a sump a tank big enough to handle equipment and folw is being a pain!

02/15/2013, 10:00 AM	#15
kclewis REEFER Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Beautiful Bargersville, IN Posts: 383	Frog, you should be able to drill the sides just fine. Typically it's the bottom of tanks where you run into problems. I just drilled several 10 gallon tanks over the weekend with no issues.

02/15/2013, 11:16 PM	#16
jhaimes Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 78	What is the advantage of an external return pump? I was thinking of getting a Mag 18 for my return but had never thought about external before. Persuade me!

02/16/2013, 01:15 PM	#17
frog.pauley Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: west virginia Posts: 555	Mag pumps are great! I will never down them. Some people will tell you they are loud...juseus couldnt satisfy these people. I would use one, but I do not have AC! I am building my new tank to handle the heat of summer without running my chiller. My previous setup was a 75 with halides and PC actinics. It ran a mag7 and Korralia 4's. My tank temps in the summer, with the chiller, could hit 90 in a quick minute! So, my 150 I am gonna try to run as cool as possible. I would think you would be better suited with a dart for return if you wanted external. I am pretty sure in the end, if you went that way, you would be able to have your return, your fuge, any reactor, any other secondary pump run off the manifold of a dart. So it really saves alot of $ and space. Lower energy consumption, more performance. As for the Mag, they do get pretty warm, they do move alot of water, they are not loud in any form. My skimmer was more audible than the mag7. Also with the external, the heat transfer is minimal since its not under water. As for dilling the side of a 55....Not a good idea! Most are tempered all around. I am not sure why the 55 gallon tank is this way, but I found out the hard way. Had 1 explode in the drill press! lol