Union, check, and gate valve question

[Terrance]

I have a 120g. I'm using a 1500gph glass-hole overflow, so there is two 1.5" drain line going down to my 40g sump. Then I have a Supreme Danner Mag 18 (1800gph) return pump with 3/4" return line.

I bought 1 gate valve, 1 check valve, and several union that look like this:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_188234-34146...pvc&facetInfo=

Where do you recommend me to put each of these items? Should I purchase additional items?

[MileHiReefR]

What was the purpose of the purchase? If you are using the check valve to prevent siphon from the return lines back to the sump during a power loss obviously you want it on the return line going with the flow of the water. A better and more reliable solution is to drill mini holes in your return lines just below the surface of the water to allow air to enter and break the siphon in a power loss as the water lowers. If the purpose of the unions and gate valve was to be able to isolate the plumbing to break off the pump for access ect., a better method would be to purchase 2 union/ball valves which would be installed at both intake and discharge ports on the pump.

[Terrance]

the check valve would help prevent water going back to the sump. my sump has room for the extra water even without the check valve, but i would rather not let it flow every time i feed. the check valve might fail sometimes, but i am ok with that. where along thr return line should i place it?

i will try to place a union between all the elbows at the moat likely place for easy dismantle and cleaning.

the gate valve helps fine tune the return flow to my liking. my pump is slightly too strong without tge gate valve. where along the return line should i place it?


is there anything else i should consider as far as plumbing?

[bshow24]

Like MileHiReefR said, using miniature holes siphoned in your line works better than using a check valve, because as you stated, a check valve may fail. If it were to fail, it would not matter how much room you had, because there is a possibility (do not know how the return pipe would be set up or anything) that over 20+ gallons could end up flowing back into your sump. With the mini holes, you do not have that worry, they could even be drilled above the water line (mine are because I lowered my water level) as long as they are inside the tank, so that water does not spray everywhere.

If you want to use the check valve still, place it along the return line basically anywhere, it does not matter as long as it is on that line.

The unions, you will figure out what is easiest.

The gate valve, use on the return line where it is easiest to change. I actually have mine coming almost immediately out of my return pump. There is a 3 inch piece of PVC, then I just use a simple ball valve, then my pump meanders its way up to the tank.

[sirreal63]

Return the check valve, it is not a good idea. If you expect good flow from that Mag 18, increase the return diameter to 1-1/2", it should say that in the directions with the pump. Using 3/4" pipe, and 4' of vertical height and a gate valve, you are only getting about 980 gph, if you use the 1-1/2" you can increase that to 1323 gph.

[Terrance]

no returns after 90days (or 30). anyways i had the pump for a year. i got a 4ft vertical and 3 elbows on the return line. how much flow am i getting from the pump vs if the return diameter was 1.5"?

i was thinking a stronger pump would help with headloss from height + elbows when i put my tank up a year ago as a freshwater tank.

[sirreal63]

With the 3/4" and the fittings and valve and only one exit, about 850 gph.
With 1-1/2" and the fittings and valve and one exit, about 1290 gph.

The bigger question is what are your goals with so much sump turnover? With my approx. 120 gallons TWV I am only running about 350 gph and it is more than enough. If you are running a skimmer with a high gph then it makes some sense to run a high sump to tank turnover, if not you are using more electricity than you need to and adding heat from that Mag that you may not want to. A Mag 18 is a 145 watt heater running 24/7 that never shuts off.

[Terrance]

i just thought i needed more gph when i set it up last year. what pump should i be looking at for downgrading? mag 9?

i dont understand what you mean by high skimmer gph and high gph sump statement. why would it make sense?

edit: i plan to get the bubble magus curve 7 skimmer

[jabbott]

Although a lot of people like sirreal63 will advocate for a low flow sump. There are just as many who will advocate for a high flow sump (10x water volume).
From my personal experience I like a high flow sump for a few reasons. For an example I had a friend who had a custom 1400 gallon tank using a 180 gallon tank for a sump with an iwaki 100. His tank always had debris and stuff floating in the water because there wasn't enough turnover through the filter socks to clean it. I replaced the iwaki with a reeflo hammerhead and redid the plumbing top match and 3 days later the tank was crystal clear and has been ever sine.
Also I prefer to put multiple locline outputs off the return which enables me to have less or no powerheads in the tank. Like a closed loop system but running through the sump.

[sirreal63]

If you decide to change pumps, use something other than a Mag, they are great pumps, bullet proof and long lasting, but they are horribly inefficient for a return pump, they use too much wattage for the flow they produce. Look at Tunze, Sicce, Water Blaster, etc. These will use a small fraction of the power and still give good performance. As a very general rule, upsize from the outlet size of a pump one to two sizes to get the most from the pump. You not only have gravity to overcome but friction.

Your skimmer is drawing in both air and water from the pump in it. If your skimmer can process 300 gph and you send 1200 gph to it, it is still only processing 300 gph and the rest is being shot past it and mixed back into the display tank. Take a minute and read this thread, it will help explain it.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=550482

I won't say it is wrong to use a high sump turnover, just that it may not be the most efficient way to do it. Many of us have found we get better skimmer performance with a lower sump turnover. Ideally you only need enough turnover to surface skim and have a skimmer that processes slightly more than you are feeding it.

There are many ways to set up a tank, none is wrong and none is right, but some may be more efficient than others.

[sirreal63]

Originally Posted by jabbott

His tank always had debris and stuff floating in the water because there wasn't enough turnover through the filter socks to clean it. I replaced the iwaki with a reeflo hammerhead and redid the plumbing top match and 3 days later the tank was crystal clear and has been ever sine.

This is normally a sign of not enough in tank flow to keep debris suspended and sent to the overflow. Nothing wrong with doing it that way but it would have been easier and more efficient to increase the in tank flow with a couple of Tunze's and used a lot less electricity.

[jabbott]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

This is normally a sign of not enough in tank flow to keep debris suspended and sent to the overflow. Nothing wrong with doing it that way but it would have been easier and more efficient to increase the in tank flow with a couple of Tunze's and used a lot less electricity.

It has 4 6155 tunze pumps in it. All that does is keep everything suspended in the water and not let it settle. Which is good, but doesn't clean it out of the water. Turnover rate through the mechanical filtration (sump) does.
Now this is an extreme situation. An iwaki 100 on a 1400 gallon tank is just a bad idea. It's like .7 and hour turn over rate. and for me the hammerhead is still not big enough. I would have used 2 of them, but there wasn't enough overflow to accommodate it.

[sirreal63]

No question it was under powered. Usually people are happy with 3-5x turnover, which the Hammerhead filled nicely. Four 6155's isn't enough for a tank that size either, I am not surprised he had issues. I prefer a lot of in tank flow, about 8700 gph on my 40x40x17 pentagon, and I still have a couple of low flow spots and it will only get worse as the corals grow.

Large tanks present different problems than smaller tanks do, it is easier to get adequate flow in a 120, significantly harder in a 1400.

[jabbott]

lol yes it is

[Terrance]

Thanks a lot guys for the advice. I will let you know if I find a pump.

[sirreal63]

Terrance, you can certainly set it up with the Mag, it is easy to swap pumps later if you choose. Your overflow will handle the flow easily, I use the 700 gph version on my tank.

[Terrance]

im wasting $6 per month in electricty while runnig this beast of a pump compared to other pumps as you mentioned, but i will take my time trading down. again, thanks a bunch for your help.

[Terrance]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

Terrance, you can certainly set it up with the Mag, it is easy to swap pumps later if you choose. Your overflow will handle the flow easily, I use the 700 gph version on my tank.

I feel like my overflow drain line is a bit noisy. Any suggestions to make it more silent? Maybe I should wrap it with insulator? Again, I'm using the ultra flex pvc. Water goes into the glass-hole 1500gph overflow, then drops straight down (~3ft), hits a 90 elbow, then hits another 90 elbow, then into the sump.

I've decided to plumb a reactor and algae turf scrubber off of my return pump as suggested from other people's build. Good idea? I will have a ball valve on those 2 lines.

[sirreal63]

Is the noise coming from the water entering the overflow or in the sump?

[azjohnny]

I like to match my flow through the sump to what the amount of water the skimmer can process ( I usually shoot for 3-5x DT turnover) and supplement with circulation pumps/CL

I have a MP40 and a MP60 on a 180 DT, the nice thing about the Vortechs is they pull detritus and uneaten food off of the liverock and substrate and get it to the overflow where it can be removed

Nutrient Transport Mode does the trick!

To quiet the water from the tank make sure the end of the drain is below the water surface and slowing the flow down through the sump

[Terrance]

The noise is coming from the drain line. The overflow is fine. The end of my drain line is submerged, and I don't hear much noise coming from that. Its mainly where the water falls straight down and hits the 90 elbow.

[azjohnny]

As far as check valves go I have never had one fail. If you drill holes at the end of the return pipe just below the surface just hope no algae grows on them or a snail happens to be on it when the power goes out

I have my exit just below the water surface and I have a George Fisher Wye check valve that can be disassembled and cleaned with a ball valve on both sides so it can be removed from the system and cleaned....maintenance is the key to a working check valve

here's a pic how its set up

From Sump