Please help!! Lots of death. *long

[hummermike]

Hello all, tank is a 75 gallon with 40 gallon sump and 15 gallon refugium. Has been setup for three months, cycled for 4 weeks, then added snails for two weeks before adding fish. Ammonia was 0 nitrites 0 nitrates around 20. Unfortunately when the tank was ready for fish my wife and kids went to get nemo....and came back with 12 fish they have been happy for over a month, until yesterday

My kids woke me up early yelling that the tank was all white, turns out my return pump was sucking air and the tank was filled with micro bubbles....FILLED!!

5 fish were dead

I fixed the problem and did a 20 gallon water change

Levels tested ok

2 more fish died a few hours later

Shut the sump and refugium off from the display tank, ran to the store and bought 50 gallons of nutri-sea live seawater, filled the sump and refugium, redirected the pumps to make it it's own closed off system and went into the tank to catch remaining fish thinking the new seawater has to be safer than the tank at this point. While at the LFS I had them test the water from my tank, said ammonia and nitrites were off the chart. ??????

By the time I caught them, I only saved two clowns and 4 snails. All fish in the main tank are now dead, snails dead, shrimp dead.

Clowns are doing well in the refugium so far. Last night I drained 20 gallons from the display tank and added 20 gallons of the nutri-sea live water, as they told me it contained millions of ammonia converting bacteria and would stabilize my tank.

Just checked and the tank is now covered with millions of copods, I've never seen copods in the tank before, not one.

Any ideas what's wrong? Why the spike in ammonia and nitrates, and was the micro bubble incident just a coincidence?

Only thing I changed was I replumbed the sump and refugium with 1 1/2" PVC and installed new bulkheads. On Sunday, 4 days before any problems.

What should I do? At this point I'm at a loss

[username in use]

The spike was from adding so many fish at one time. There was not a sufficient bacterial load to process the waste fast enough. Adding one or two fish at a time with a couple weeks in between would have allowed the system to equalize with each addition, minimizing the amount of ammonia that was in the system.

Water changes are the best course of action. I wouldn't waste my money on the nutri-seawater, there isn't enough bacteria in there to make a difference, just make water on your own and do a few 20% changes and you'll be fine.

When you star to add fish again remember to only do 1 or 2 at a time and give the system a couple/few weeks to level out.

[username in use]

Remember, don't buy nutri seawater, make your own.

[Pittsburgh]

Hmm.. your 40g sump was dry, which means the salinity was also very very high. Going from 130g total volume down to a 90g, must have increased the salinity quite a bit.

Also, ammonia in tank likely didn't occur just that night. It was building up overtime as your biofilter wasn't ready to process all the waste from 12 fish plus feeding.

So the way I see this unfolding is: over the course of 3 weeks, the ammonia was going up, slowly weakening your fish. Then over the last few days lots of water evaporated from the sump causing salinity to go up significantly. The fish, weakened by ammonia and nitrites finally started dying due to increased stress from high salinity. Die off further contributed to the ammonia spike causing the total crash.

[rbp 4 135]

Sounds like you had some evaporation that dropped your sump level, did you happen to see what your salinity was at the time of the micro-bubble event?

Usually micro bubbles are not harmful to inhabitants. A single fatality that spiked up ammonia levels could lead to more casualties, and cause something like you are seeing. It could also be a contaminant or a disease. Ever spray any cleaners around the tank?

I also agree with the above opinions, you likely had to many additions at a single time.

[vansk8r]

Exactly what I thought.

[username in use]

Originally Posted by Pittsburgh

Hmm.. your 40g sump was dry, which means the salinity was also very very high. Going from 130g total volume down to a 90g, must have increased the salinity quite a bit.

Its unlikely that his entire sump was dry. The return chamber is all that needed to go down, so it could only be like 3-10 gallons which wouldn't affect the salinity enough to really be an issue.

[Dexters Reef]

The LFS should have never sold so many fish at once for a new tank. That is definitely the cause...your tank was stabilizing after the cycle and was steady with no bio load added. When you add fish, you are now increasing bio load and the tank needs to adjust. Fish should be added 1-3 at a time depending on size, then you need to wait a few weeks before adding another. Also, with your nitrates being at 20 before any fish or feeding that tells me the tank was not cycled completely and was towards the end, but not quite complete. After you added all these fish, over the course of a few weeks the waste they produce builds up faster than the bacteria can process it and eventually you crash.

May I ask what were the 12 fish you added, and what you have that survived? I run a 75g with a 20g sump refugium that is very stable, great parameters and I have 8 fish. I would not even consider adding another fish to this tank, its maxed out based on my observations.

All the die off from the fish is the reason the ammonia skyrocketed and thus caused the nitrite spike, which will eventually get processed into nitrates.

Do you have your own test kits for ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites? Also that nutrisea salt water runs about 25$ for 4.5 gallons by me, and you bought 50 gallons of it!?!? If the prices are similar for you then you spent over $200 on water! Thats insane. For the price of that, you could have gotten your own RODI (mine was 120 from bulkreefsupply) and a 200g bucket of salt for about 40$ Once you have the RODI, you can buy the salt in bulk and it will be MUCH cheaper in the long run

[Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by username in use

Its unlikely that his entire sump was dry. The return chamber is all that needed to go down, so it could only be like 3-10 gallons which wouldn't affect the salinity enough to really be an issue.

It really depends on the sump Mine is real old and has no chambers, so it would go 100% dry w/o a top off.

[hummermike]

My sump is 40 gallon which is plumbed into a seperate 15 gallon Refugium, which is plumbed to a seperate tank that acts as a return chamber, didn't have space for atraditional setup so I designed this., so in all I ight have been 5 gallons lower than normal to creat he micro bubbles.

I know there was too many fish added at once, I was ****ed when I came home and saw all those fish in there, but once the kids had them I was powerless to remove them..lol

So best course of action going forward would be, water changes or allow the mini cycle to end in the main tank then take it from there with a water change and adding snails, just like the first cycle?

Thanks for the help!!

[hummermike]

Sorry for the typos, I have reumatoid arthritis and it's hard using the buttons on this iPad

[username in use]

Originally Posted by hummermike

My sump is 40 gallon which is plumbed into a seperate 15 gallon Refugium, which is plumbed to a seperate tank that acts as a return chamber, didn't have space for atraditional setup so I designed this., so in all I ight have been 5 gallons lower than normal to creat he micro bubbles.

I know there was too many fish added at once, I was ****ed when I came home and saw all those fish in there, but once the kids had them I was powerless to remove them..lol

So best course of action going forward would be, water changes or allow the mini cycle to end in the main tank then take it from there with a water change and adding snails, just like the first cycle?

Thanks for the help!!

Water changes are your best friend right now. The next time they come home with that many fish, just do more frequent water changes and you can avoid the deaths.

[billdogg]

Several large water changes will bring the levels of Ammonia and Nitrate (and lost likely Nitrite) back down to where they belong. It will be ok soon enough.

I would use this unfortunate accident as a learning experience, not just for you, but the kids and wife as well. Explain to them what happened and how to prevent it in the future, and in the long run, everybody wins. The more you can keep the family involved, the more enjoyable the hobby will be.

Stress to them Rule #1: Nothing Good Happens Fast in this hobby. in a couple weeks, add a fish or two, and go from there.

[hummermike]

Originally Posted by username in use

Water changes are your best friend right now. The next time they come home with that many fish, just do more frequent water changes and you can avoid the deaths.

Thanks

Any idea why I am seeing copods today for the first time ever? Could they be coming out of the rocks because they're dying?

[username in use]

Could just be out due to a water change and some more favorable conditions.

[hummermike]

Ok, so I am going to keep the sump, refugium system isolated for now as the clowns and a few snails are living in the fuge with about 50 pounds of live rock

The display tank I have hooked up to a hob aqua clear for now and have about 120 pounds of lr. I'll do water changes to the display tank until the numbers come back to zero, then do a large water change and put the display and sump systems back together?

Good plan?

[rbp 4 135]

I would retest the display and sump levels, provided they are close I would open everything back up.

Also whats the water temp on your display? if your heater is in the sump it's likely quite a bit cooler in the display since the two are now disconected.

[hummermike]

Originally Posted by Dexters Reef

The LFS should have never sold so many fish at once for a new tank. That is definitely the cause...your tank was stabilizing after the cycle and was steady with no bio load added. When you add fish, you are now increasing bio load and the tank needs to adjust. Fish should be added 1-3 at a time depending on size, then you need to wait a few weeks before adding another. Also, with your nitrates being at 20 before any fish or feeding that tells me the tank was not cycled completely and was towards the end, but not quite complete. After you added all these fish, over the course of a few weeks the waste they produce builds up faster than the bacteria can process it and eventually you crash.

May I ask what were the 12 fish you added, and what you have that survived? I run a 75g with a 20g sump refugium that is very stable, great parameters and I have 8 fish. I would not even consider adding another fish to this tank, its maxed out based on my observations.

All the die off from the fish is the reason the ammonia skyrocketed and thus caused the nitrite spike, which will eventually get processed into nitrates.

Do you have your own test kits for ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites? Also that nutrisea salt water runs about 25$ for 4.5 gallons by me, and you bought 50 gallons of it!?!? If the prices are similar for you then you spent over $200 on water! Thats insane. For the price of that, you could have gotten your own RODI (mine was 120 from bulkreefsupply) and a 200g bucket of salt for about 40$ Once you have the RODI, you can buy the salt in bulk and it will be MUCH cheaper in the long run

Nutrisea water was $11 for 4.5 gallons, yea it was expensive but I was trying to save the fish I had left so I didn't really care about the money...it's only money

I usually run tap water that I mix with conditioner and salt. My tap has about 10 of nitrates in it. I've found a place this morning that sells ro/di water that I will probably use from now on. Even though my neighbor has a beautiful
Shark tank using tap water and never had an issue and Ive never had any algae problems in my freshwater tanks that I've kept the past 15 years. I know the volatile topic that tap water is, not looking to get I to that. Lol.

[username in use]

Taps not so much of an issue for fish, its an issue for corals and inverts.

[hummermike]

Originally Posted by rbp 4 135

I would retest the display and sump levels, provided they are close I would open everything back up.

Also whats the water temp on your display? if your heater is in the sump it's likely quite a bit cooler in the display since the two are now disconected.

The tank was built into the wall, behind it is a wet room next to the boiler room, so I don't use heaters, water temp stays steady at 79 just based on room temp.

[username in use]

Originally Posted by hummermike

stays steady at 79 just based on room temp.

And pumps. Having the main pump disconnected from the display could have dropped the temp. Maybe not significantly but worth looking at before opening it all up.

[hummermike]

I'll double check it when I go downstairs, thanks

[kabe87]

Have you tried adding probidio? Bio-digest and bioptim? Those two might help you with the bacterias the tank needs

[hummermike]

Haven't added anything except what might have been in the nutrisea water

[Redngold]

Originally Posted by hummermike

Nutrisea water was $11 for 4.5 gallons, yea it was expensive but I was trying to save the fish I had left so I didn't really care about the money...it's only money

I usually run tap water that I mix with conditioner and salt. My tap has about 10 of nitrates in it. I've found a place this morning that sells ro/di water that I will probably use from now on. Even though my neighbor has a beautiful
Shark tank using tap water and never had an issue and Ive never had any algae problems in my freshwater tanks that I've kept the past 15 years. I know the volatile topic that tap water is, not looking to get I to that. Lol.

If its just money i'd really recommend you spend the $130 and get a ro/di system. It will save you headaches in the future.