how to prevent flood?

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 04:22 PM

So I have tank being made should be here tomarrow or monday.anyways my question is I had 4 returns built into the back glass 2 couple inchs from the top and 2 about 9" from the bottom. Now for a emergency or power down I know all the water should siphon back into the sump. Now how do I prevent this from happening being the returns are so low that a siphon break hole wont work correct? And everyone says not to relie on check valves. What else could I use? All returns will be running through a manifold so ill have ball valves for each return so I can manually control it but how do I prevent the piwer down fail safe? Thanks

usmc121581 · 03/28/2013, 04:31 PM

Not to knock the design, but that sounds like a closed loop system. With the 2 being on the bottom, you are almost 100% sure to flood your house on the first power outage. What you could do is instead of the first elbow put a T piece of pVC there. One side will run straight up and the other will run down to the sump. I am not sure if this will make loud gargle sounds, but it will break the siphon in a power outage. Hopefully you get a mental picture from my description.

buffalo123 · 03/28/2013, 04:38 PM

You need a big sump or an over flow in the sump that would prevent the sump overfilling unto the floor. That 9 inch from the bottom will be the real problem.
Are the holes at the bottom that necessary. You can just cap them. Any kind of checkvalve failure will leave you 9 inches of water in the aquarium. Best to have a backup to your checkvalve. Things go wrong sometimes despite our good efforts.

Another option make the two lower holes a closed loop , you need another pump though

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 04:47 PM

Yes its similar to closed loop. But its not ha. I think I know what your saying about teeing off. But as u said im not sure about the sound or if it actually will work.think I may have too stick with a check val

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 04:48 PM

Sorry .. but I may just use 2 check valves for emergency I guess is the only othe route I can think of.

usmc121581 · 03/28/2013, 04:48 PM

Continued, almost like a dorso pipe after you place the T on you cut another piece of PVC maybe 5" and place a cap over it. Drill a hole in the middle of the cap, to allow air to go in a break the siphon. Since water flows down, you don't have to worry about water flowing out the hole.

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 04:51 PM

Well wouldent water come out the tee's "hole"? As the water returns to tank it may be pushed into the tee?

usmc121581 · 03/28/2013, 05:01 PM

Sry, I just re-read the post and was thinking 2 exit and 2 returns. So in your case check valves are good. Lol also invest in a good battery back up for the return pump.

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 05:14 PM

Yea . I may end up doing a check valve on each bottom return and one on the. Manifold right where the pump connects to the manifold so ill have 3 check valves for back up.? That sound prepared? I would lime to have battery back up but $ tight right now. How much are back ups?

usmc121581 · 03/28/2013, 06:06 PM

It depends on battery time. I got mine from work brand new they were going to toss them.

http://m.bestbuy.com/m/e/catalog/lis...d=abcat0515043

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 06:08 PM

Thanks for the link. Maybe ill check my work. I'm a building engineer

usmc121581 · 03/28/2013, 06:25 PM

Perfect lol I have 3 on my 180

slief · 03/28/2013, 06:27 PM

Been there done that. If you rely on check valves to prevent flooding, you WILL have a flood. Maybe not a month or a year but it's not if you will have a flood, it's when. At least if you stay in this hobby. I've come home to find my house flooded and 500 gallons of water running out of my garage by way of the laundy room and down the driveway.

It's real easy to add an overflow. Keep your close look and closed loop. Have your sump feed itself from an overflow or at least or at the very least a point high enough that the siphon will break before your sump is overflowing. Same goes for the return. Have it high enough that your sump won't overflow before the siphon breaks.

Avoid check valves at all costs. Especially if you are in the middle of a new build, it's just doesn't make sense not to have to rely on them. Do it right the first time.

A redigned by plumbing and sump a numbers years back and eliminated all check valves and it was one of the best things I ever done. I haven't had a flood in years and I had more than a few before that.

Being in the computer business, I can tell you that while UPS's are great, the batteries seem to fail after about year and I don't use cheap UPS's either. Also, depending on the size of your pump, the amount of up time without AC power may be less than you think. I wouldn't want to rely on a UPS to keep my home from flooding if the power went out.

My $.02!

GroktheCube · 03/28/2013, 06:43 PM

You're using a Herbie or BeanAnimal type overflow drain, right?

The only way to prevent a flood with those holes near the bottom is to have a sump big enough to hold all the water.

I'd strongly recommended against plumbing your system that way. If you want holes near the bottom, use a closed loop. Plug them otherwise.

IMHO, not having enough extra room in the sump to cover a worst case scenario (preferably with headroom) is begging for a flood. My sump will take all the tank water that might drain AND the entire ATO reservoir.

If you can't plug those holes, I'd contemplate getting a new tank. I can guarantee you it will cost FAR less than the flood.

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 06:57 PM

Yes herbie drain is what I have. So you guys are aware there is a overfliw with 2 1.5" drains.
4 3/4"returns.

GroktheCube · 03/28/2013, 07:01 PM

3/4" is pretty small, what pump are you using?

I'd seriously consider going closed loop for the lower drains. IMHO having those lower drains going into the sump is a very bad idea.

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 07:12 PM

The manifold will b 1". Im not changing the set up to closed loop because it will be an all bta anemone tank. Hints the 4 returns. No powerheads. I will be trying the rio 32h hyperflow.

GroktheCube · 03/28/2013, 07:26 PM

In that case, I'd recommend getting a sump big enough to hold all of the water that could drain. If need be, hook a big stock tank or something up to the sump.

motojoe1988 · 03/28/2013, 07:40 PM

I have a 40 gallon sump but I think ill have to just have check valves. Was wondering if theres another soloution other then closed loop.

nikon187 · 03/28/2013, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motojoe1988

I have a 40 gallon sump but I think ill have to just have check valves. Was wondering if theres another soloution other then closed loop.

nope, not unless you can figure out a way to stop gravity. And i 100 percent agree if you rely on check valves you WILL have a flood eventually. Be it 1 or 2 or even 3 they always fail.

You could cap the bottom two holes and just use the top 2. This would be the safest and easiest solution to your problem. I have over 100 check valves at my store on systems and in a power outage you can hear many failing to do there job lol. Please do not rely on check valves

GroktheCube · 03/28/2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motojoe1988

I have a 40 gallon sump but I think ill have to just have check valves. Was wondering if theres another soloution other then closed loop.

How big is the tank?

I'd strongly recommend either:
A. Running a closed loop
B. Plugging those holes
C. Using a sump that will hold all the water.

I don't mean to be a nudge, or overly blunt, but if you do not choose between those 3 options you will eventually have all that water on your floor. If you're ok with that, so be it, but I can guarantee you the cost in dollars to replace lost livestock, damaged equipment, and repair the damage to your home (seeing as most home owner's insurance policies explicitly exclude aquariums) will be more than an order of magnitude greater than fixing the problem now.

buffalo123 · 03/29/2013, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slief

Been there done that. If you rely on check valves to prevent flooding, you WILL have a flood. Maybe not a month or a year but it's not if you will have a flood, it's when. At least if you stay in this hobby. I've come home to find my house flooded and 500 gallons of water running out of my garage by way of the laundy room and down the driveway.

It's real easy to add an overflow. Keep your close look and closed loop. Have your sump feed itself from an overflow or at least or at the very least a point high enough that the siphon will break before your sump is overflowing. Same goes for the return. Have it high enough that your sump won't overflow before the siphon breaks.

Avoid check valves at all costs. Especially if you are in the middle of a new build, it's just doesn't make sense not to have to rely on them. Do it right the first time.

Yep agree, you have to build your system with no flood in mind, and yet have a good system for the livestock.

A redigned by plumbing and sump a numbers years back and eliminated all check valves and it was one of the best things I ever done. I haven't had a flood in years and I had more than a few before that.

Being in the computer business, I can tell you that while UPS's are great, the batteries seem to fail after about year and I don't use cheap UPS's either. Also, depending on the size of your pump, the amount of up time without AC power may be less than you think. I wouldn't want to rely on a UPS to keep my home from flooding if the power went out.

My $.02!

03/28/2013, 04:22 PM	#1
motojoe1988 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 737	how to prevent flood? So I have tank being made should be here tomarrow or monday.anyways my question is I had 4 returns built into the back glass 2 couple inchs from the top and 2 about 9" from the bottom. Now for a emergency or power down I know all the water should siphon back into the sump. Now how do I prevent this from happening being the returns are so low that a siphon break hole wont work correct? And everyone says not to relie on check valves. What else could I use? All returns will be running through a manifold so ill have ball valves for each return so I can manually control it but how do I prevent the piwer down fail safe? Thanks

03/28/2013, 04:31 PM	#2
usmc121581 Where am I? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Abingdon, maryland Posts: 1,671 Blog Entries: 1	Not to knock the design, but that sounds like a closed loop system. With the 2 being on the bottom, you are almost 100% sure to flood your house on the first power outage. What you could do is instead of the first elbow put a T piece of pVC there. One side will run straight up and the other will run down to the sump. I am not sure if this will make loud gargle sounds, but it will break the siphon in a power outage. Hopefully you get a mental picture from my description. __________________ I prefer not to think before I speak, I like to be just as surprised as everyone else by what comes out of my mouth. Current Tank Info: I have a 180 gal mostly LPS corals, it contains 1 Val. Tang, 1 yellow striped clown fish, 3 percula clownfish, a blood shrimp, cleaner shrimp and a sand shifting goby, 5 pajama cardinals, 1 green chromis. Also a 75 gal. sump/fug.

03/28/2013, 04:38 PM	#3
buffalo123 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Cambridge, Ontario Canada Posts: 1,092	You need a big sump or an over flow in the sump that would prevent the sump overfilling unto the floor. That 9 inch from the bottom will be the real problem. Are the holes at the bottom that necessary. You can just cap them. Any kind of checkvalve failure will leave you 9 inches of water in the aquarium. Best to have a backup to your checkvalve. Things go wrong sometimes despite our good efforts. Another option make the two lower holes a closed loop , you need another pump though Last edited by buffalo123; 03/28/2013 at 05:05 PM.

03/28/2013, 04:48 PM	#6
usmc121581 Where am I? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Abingdon, maryland Posts: 1,671 Blog Entries: 1	Continued, almost like a dorso pipe after you place the T on you cut another piece of PVC maybe 5" and place a cap over it. Drill a hole in the middle of the cap, to allow air to go in a break the siphon. Since water flows down, you don't have to worry about water flowing out the hole. __________________ I prefer not to think before I speak, I like to be just as surprised as everyone else by what comes out of my mouth. Current Tank Info: I have a 180 gal mostly LPS corals, it contains 1 Val. Tang, 1 yellow striped clown fish, 3 percula clownfish, a blood shrimp, cleaner shrimp and a sand shifting goby, 5 pajama cardinals, 1 green chromis. Also a 75 gal. sump/fug.

03/28/2013, 05:01 PM	#8
usmc121581 Where am I? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Abingdon, maryland Posts: 1,671 Blog Entries: 1	Sry, I just re-read the post and was thinking 2 exit and 2 returns. So in your case check valves are good. Lol also invest in a good battery back up for the return pump. __________________ I prefer not to think before I speak, I like to be just as surprised as everyone else by what comes out of my mouth. Current Tank Info: I have a 180 gal mostly LPS corals, it contains 1 Val. Tang, 1 yellow striped clown fish, 3 percula clownfish, a blood shrimp, cleaner shrimp and a sand shifting goby, 5 pajama cardinals, 1 green chromis. Also a 75 gal. sump/fug.

03/28/2013, 04:47 PM	#4
motojoe1988 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 737	Yes its similar to closed loop. But its not ha. I think I know what your saying about teeing off. But as u said im not sure about the sound or if it actually will work.think I may have too stick with a check val

03/28/2013, 04:51 PM	#7
motojoe1988 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 737	Well wouldent water come out the tee's "hole"? As the water returns to tank it may be pushed into the tee?

03/28/2013, 05:14 PM	#9
motojoe1988 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 737	Yea . I may end up doing a check valve on each bottom return and one on the. Manifold right where the pump connects to the manifold so ill have 3 check valves for back up.? That sound prepared? I would lime to have battery back up but $ tight right now. How much are back ups?

03/28/2013, 06:06 PM	#10
usmc121581 Where am I? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Abingdon, maryland Posts: 1,671 Blog Entries: 1	It depends on battery time. I got mine from work brand new they were going to toss them. http://m.bestbuy.com/m/e/catalog/lis...d=abcat0515043 __________________ I prefer not to think before I speak, I like to be just as surprised as everyone else by what comes out of my mouth. Current Tank Info: I have a 180 gal mostly LPS corals, it contains 1 Val. Tang, 1 yellow striped clown fish, 3 percula clownfish, a blood shrimp, cleaner shrimp and a sand shifting goby, 5 pajama cardinals, 1 green chromis. Also a 75 gal. sump/fug.

03/28/2013, 06:08 PM	#11
motojoe1988 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 737	Thanks for the link. Maybe ill check my work. I'm a building engineer

03/28/2013, 06:25 PM	#12
usmc121581 Where am I? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Abingdon, maryland Posts: 1,671 Blog Entries: 1	Perfect lol I have 3 on my 180 __________________ I prefer not to think before I speak, I like to be just as surprised as everyone else by what comes out of my mouth. Current Tank Info: I have a 180 gal mostly LPS corals, it contains 1 Val. Tang, 1 yellow striped clown fish, 3 percula clownfish, a blood shrimp, cleaner shrimp and a sand shifting goby, 5 pajama cardinals, 1 green chromis. Also a 75 gal. sump/fug.

03/28/2013, 06:27 PM	#13
slief RC Sponsor Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 14,173	Been there done that. If you rely on check valves to prevent flooding, you WILL have a flood. Maybe not a month or a year but it's not if you will have a flood, it's when. At least if you stay in this hobby. I've come home to find my house flooded and 500 gallons of water running out of my garage by way of the laundy room and down the driveway. It's real easy to add an overflow. Keep your close look and closed loop. Have your sump feed itself from an overflow or at least or at the very least a point high enough that the siphon will break before your sump is overflowing. Same goes for the return. Have it high enough that your sump won't overflow before the siphon breaks. Avoid check valves at all costs. Especially if you are in the middle of a new build, it's just doesn't make sense not to have to rely on them. Do it right the first time. A redigned by plumbing and sump a numbers years back and eliminated all check valves and it was one of the best things I ever done. I haven't had a flood in years and I had more than a few before that. Being in the computer business, I can tell you that while UPS's are great, the batteries seem to fail after about year and I don't use cheap UPS's either. Also, depending on the size of your pump, the amount of up time without AC power may be less than you think. I wouldn't want to rely on a UPS to keep my home from flooding if the power went out. My $.02!

03/28/2013, 06:43 PM	#14
GroktheCube Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,063	You're using a Herbie or BeanAnimal type overflow drain, right? The only way to prevent a flood with those holes near the bottom is to have a sump big enough to hold all the water. I'd strongly recommended against plumbing your system that way. If you want holes near the bottom, use a closed loop. Plug them otherwise. IMHO, not having enough extra room in the sump to cover a worst case scenario (preferably with headroom) is begging for a flood. My sump will take all the tank water that might drain AND the entire ATO reservoir. If you can't plug those holes, I'd contemplate getting a new tank. I can guarantee you it will cost FAR less than the flood.

03/28/2013, 06:57 PM	#15
motojoe1988 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 737	Yes herbie drain is what I have. So you guys are aware there is a overfliw with 2 1.5" drains. 4 3/4"returns.

03/28/2013, 07:01 PM	#16
GroktheCube Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,063	3/4" is pretty small, what pump are you using? I'd seriously consider going closed loop for the lower drains. IMHO having those lower drains going into the sump is a very bad idea.

03/28/2013, 07:12 PM	#17
motojoe1988 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 737	The manifold will b 1". Im not changing the set up to closed loop because it will be an all bta anemone tank. Hints the 4 returns. No powerheads. I will be trying the rio 32h hyperflow.

03/28/2013, 07:26 PM	#18
GroktheCube Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,063	In that case, I'd recommend getting a sump big enough to hold all of the water that could drain. If need be, hook a big stock tank or something up to the sump.

03/28/2013, 07:40 PM	#19
motojoe1988 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 737	I have a 40 gallon sump but I think ill have to just have check valves. Was wondering if theres another soloution other then closed loop.