New Reef Potential

DemonFish · 07/30/2013, 01:28 PM

After many years of freshwater fishkeeping, I took a break after my large 150 gallon planted tank leaked, twice. At the time I sold off the large tank, but kept all my accessories and my smaller 55 gallon tank. Now, it's about a year later and I'm getting the itch again to keep fish.
Right now my equipment is as follows:
2 Marineland HOT Mags (one with a skimmer)
1 Marineland Canister with biowheel
Odessy UV Sterilizer
One Current CF fixture 48"
One Current T5HO fixture 48"
55 Gallon aquarium

I know that in order to get started I'll need around 50-70lbs of live rock and about as much live sand (or alternative).
I am weighing my options. I have a lot of money in the equipment I already have and was wondering if it might be suitable to try my hand out at a Live Reef.
I would want to ease into things. What are your thoughts, do I have a good start or with this equipment should I stick to freshwater. I'm looking for an honest opinion.
What has drawn me to SW is the vibrant colors. I like the Mushrooms, Polyps, and leathers as well as the wide array of inverts and fan worms that come with live reefs. These just aren't as available in the FW community. With my live reef thank, the fish would probably be secondary to establishing a solid and well maintained reef full of color and life.
Thanks for your help while I weigh my options.

hossa81 · 07/30/2013, 01:32 PM

I would start with just getting fish and getting the hang of them. You will need a quarantine to be safe with the fish. If you want a reef i would strongly suggest putting the money into a sump and fuge.

DemonFish · 07/31/2013, 09:51 AM

Are sump/fuge required equipment?
Let's say I decide to run the following set up:
Both light fixtures, the Canister with UV sterilizer and one of the HOT Mags with the skimmer, and maybe ad a powerhead. I know I'll need the proper live rock and sand.
Is the set up do-able, or doomed? I know a lot of it will depend on a solid maintenance routine, and I'm ready for that.

Rbaker1325 · 07/31/2013, 11:23 AM

mixed feelings about uv sterilizers, some say they can kill good bacteria as well, Personally im not sure as I have never researched it, but i figured since your thinking about it, it would be a good thing for you to look into. I would strongly suggest against any canister filter though as i personally have never heard anything good about them. I would say get a sump. As we go on through this hobby and help educate each other it's essentially become best practice. There are 1000 reasons to have a sump and you will thank god you did if you get one. The good out ways the bad on that one. area to dose, water change, hide equipment, remove nutrients, isolate specimens, place invasive beneficial specimens, and many other reasons why sump and fuge are good. I am definitely not a pro at this, but i figured i would attempt to help. Been in it around year now.

Just my .02

Best of luck.

DemonFish · 07/31/2013, 11:30 AM

Thanks for the help. That definately seems like good information, and is definately what I'm looking for. Trying to cover all my bases and do things right the first time instead of struggling or having to go back and make changes.

Rbaker1325 · 08/01/2013, 10:13 AM

No problem. thats why were all here. to help one another and grow the hobby.

jonwright · 08/01/2013, 12:40 PM

Can you without sump? yeah...I've read where folks have done that. Is it easy? Not really.

I have a 44 w/o a sump and I see really quickly how it helps. I'm doing a "simple" tank to get started before I get a large tank with all the complicated goodies to figure out along the way (ATO? no. ReefKeeper? No. Probes? no. Dosers? no. Chiller? no. Mh lighting? No. LED lights with changable spectrum? No. GFO reactor? No. HOB skimmer? Yeah.).

Honestly, I've a fresh water background as well and I"m telling you - getting the hang of chemistry by itself without managing all the equipment may very well keep you busy for a while. Certainly is me. I started reading and researching in Jan and put up my tank 2 months ago, and I've found a marked difference between understanding an article, on say, Ph levels, alkalaninity, calcium and managing that vs. diagnosing what needs to be done and taking the correct approach. Let alone carefully selecting livestock and equipment.

I've ready horror stories with folks husing HOB overflows to put in a sump with a non-reef ready tank, and I've read where folks swear by them. Me? By the time I get that serious it's upgrade time and the 44 will either be a frag tank or QT. Maybe specimen tank.

You CAN get started with what you have, and at least get your feet wet with light stocking and inverts. Complexity will go up a bit with corals.

But yea...I top off my tank 2-3 times a week. An ATO would be nice for sure. But at least by doing all of this stuff by hand I get first hand experience and knowledge of exactly what is going on and it's effects without having a system get totally out of control.

I also have a lot of kids around the house so I can't devote a full weekend to reading, research, and going to the store. I have to do that in small chunks, so that's how I'm approaching my tank as of now.

DemonFish · 08/01/2013, 01:36 PM

Jon,
This is a very similar situation to what I am in (I have a toddler). I really want to get my feet wet in salt water. I have a good grasp on what I've read, but like with many things I'm sure it is much different when you handle things in real life. I learn best by doing, so even though there will be a learning curve, at this point i'll probably just need to jump in and start.
What would help me the best is a basic start up guide which i'm sure I can find.
I know i can add a Sump, refugium, and all of the bells and whistles later.
Maybe the best thing to do is start out with the basics, add a couple of hearty fish and work up from there.

jonwright · 08/01/2013, 06:42 PM

Yep. That's what I'm doing. And I'm getting an appreciation of the equipment.

But it would be an awful lot for a person to chew on methinks.

I had bought my setup used for $100 and intended it to be a quarantine. But the boys were on me so I bought $200 of live and base rock, bucket of salt and got to it. Had HOB filter, but quickly figured out why folks have skimmers. Then bought HOb skimmer. New light bulb. Now we're cookin.

Glad I did. You realize there's an awful lot of incidentals that's needed. I see why mixing 40 gal of water at once is much easier than 5 gal at a time. Having your own rodi instead of buying it 10 gal at a time. Multiple nets, buckets, tubes etc. QT equipment, all that. Test kits. Easy to spend mucho $$$ all at once instead of chipping away at it.

I'd like to just get it all and have a nice big tank, but I think chipping away at it is a bit better.

jonwright · 08/01/2013, 06:50 PM

Fenner's conscientious aquarist is a good start. Plus all the stickies. Then you'll read all that over the course of a few weeks, then get cracking. Once you get started you'll look up details.

Cycle the tank. Let it get some algae going. Add clean up crews for a few weeks. Then watch the live rock bloom. Add in a couple fish one at a time. By then you'll be in themidst of working out the chemistry.

DemonFish · 08/02/2013, 09:06 AM

Thanks again Jon. I've checked out Sk8r's simple how to thread, and it has some really good information. I actually picked up Fenner's book a while back and I've been working may way through it.
Excited to get started, but I know it's at least a month if not more down the road.

behlke · 08/02/2013, 12:25 PM

When I started, I switched my 29g planted freshwater setup to a reef. I tried to use my freshwater equipment to begin with and then add more equipment as needed. I don't remember all of the step and equipment I changed, or discarded, but long story short - From my freshwater set-up, I use the tank, stand (which I want to replace), and heater. I also have nets, buckets and other accessories that I still use. Everything else was replaced.

I don't regret my decision to enter reefkeeping, I just wish I had started differently and bought the right equipment from the beginning instead of trying to make it work with my freshwater equipment. This is an expensive hobby to start.

Percher · 08/02/2013, 02:08 PM

The potential is definitely there and I would argue against some of the advice being given here.

Your tank, heater, and lights will definitely carry over toward the type of reef tank you want to make. I would skip on the HOB filters and canister as running them nonstop like we do for FW will make them into nitrate beds. I would hold onto them tho, you can use them to polish the water from time to time (i.e. run the canister filter every so often with carbon media in it to suck up any detritus build up and then clean it out between each use) so it isn't really a waste.

Get a good HOB protein skimmer, good powerheads for water movement, and about 60-ish pounds of good live rock (lots of coraline algae coverage if possible...I see lots of stores selling bare rock in stinky bins as live rock these days). Save yourself a few dollars and skip on the live sand and get the dry stuff instead. Your rock will seed your sand with the beneficial bacteria and have great biodiversity than anything you can get from pre-packaged sand.

You definitely do NOT need a sump/fuge to have a successful reef tank; especially not for what you are looking to do. Sumps and fuges definitely have their advantages but they aren't a requirement. Having good surface flow and perhaps a surface skimmer for your protein skimmer (or a powerhead) can provide good enough gas exchange to keep things happy and healthy.

I also would not go the route of adding fish to get the hang of things; especially if fish are a secondary consideration in what you ultimately want to achieve with the tank. Fish are generally the LAST thing on my list of animals to be added to the tank for a couple of reasons. First, most fish will feast on the detritivores that are of significant benefit to the health of your tank and to your corals. Secondly, fish will generally add a significant bioload to the tank (depending on size, species, feeding etc of fish). Some of my most successful tanks have had only corals and inverts in them till much later on and even then the fish were added very sparingly and with only a direct benefit to the health of the tank in mind.

mgraf · 08/02/2013, 06:38 PM

Definately doable. I ran a reef with softies and some small fish for years without a sump and skimmer. Diligent water change schedule is your best friend. IMO, people on RC make it sound a lot harder to start a reef than what it really is. Of course you can make it as complicated as you want it to be, or as simple as you want. Couple hardy fish, and soft corals are way more forgiving than most act like. Get your feet wet, start small, and save your money, once you get the itch, you'll be buying equipment and working your way to an upgrade. Trust me, it's addictive

DemonFish · 08/06/2013, 07:30 AM

Alright, I'm sure I can sell off the old filters in a FW forum or on Ebay (may hold on to one to polish the water). I know I'd need a skimmer and I can add a Sump at a later time. It's definately sounding more and more doable to me.
What do you use to filter your QT's?

07/30/2013, 01:28 PM	#1
DemonFish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 48	New Reef Potential After many years of freshwater fishkeeping, I took a break after my large 150 gallon planted tank leaked, twice. At the time I sold off the large tank, but kept all my accessories and my smaller 55 gallon tank. Now, it's about a year later and I'm getting the itch again to keep fish. Right now my equipment is as follows: 2 Marineland HOT Mags (one with a skimmer) 1 Marineland Canister with biowheel Odessy UV Sterilizer One Current CF fixture 48" One Current T5HO fixture 48" 55 Gallon aquarium I know that in order to get started I'll need around 50-70lbs of live rock and about as much live sand (or alternative). I am weighing my options. I have a lot of money in the equipment I already have and was wondering if it might be suitable to try my hand out at a Live Reef. I would want to ease into things. What are your thoughts, do I have a good start or with this equipment should I stick to freshwater. I'm looking for an honest opinion. What has drawn me to SW is the vibrant colors. I like the Mushrooms, Polyps, and leathers as well as the wide array of inverts and fan worms that come with live reefs. These just aren't as available in the FW community. With my live reef thank, the fish would probably be secondary to establishing a solid and well maintained reef full of color and life. Thanks for your help while I weigh my options.

07/30/2013, 01:32 PM	#2
hossa81 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Geneva,IL Posts: 900	I would start with just getting fish and getting the hang of them. You will need a quarantine to be safe with the fish. If you want a reef i would strongly suggest putting the money into a sump and fuge. __________________ Enjoy life, there's plenty of time to be dead. Current Tank Info: 180 FOWLR, 29 BioCube

08/02/2013, 12:25 PM	#12
behlke Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 163	When I started, I switched my 29g planted freshwater setup to a reef. I tried to use my freshwater equipment to begin with and then add more equipment as needed. I don't remember all of the step and equipment I changed, or discarded, but long story short - From my freshwater set-up, I use the tank, stand (which I want to replace), and heater. I also have nets, buckets and other accessories that I still use. Everything else was replaced. I don't regret my decision to enter reefkeeping, I just wish I had started differently and bought the right equipment from the beginning instead of trying to make it work with my freshwater equipment. This is an expensive hobby to start. __________________ Later,Adam "The solution to pollution is dilution, or concentration and removal." "Nothing is as good as nature, it has 4.6 billion years of experience." "Do not try anything I say at home." Current Tank Info: None. Heater failed on my old tank when I was on vacation. There were no survivors.

07/31/2013, 09:51 AM	#3
DemonFish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 48	Are sump/fuge required equipment? Let's say I decide to run the following set up: Both light fixtures, the Canister with UV sterilizer and one of the HOT Mags with the skimmer, and maybe ad a powerhead. I know I'll need the proper live rock and sand. Is the set up do-able, or doomed? I know a lot of it will depend on a solid maintenance routine, and I'm ready for that.

07/31/2013, 11:23 AM	#4
Rbaker1325 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 95	mixed feelings about uv sterilizers, some say they can kill good bacteria as well, Personally im not sure as I have never researched it, but i figured since your thinking about it, it would be a good thing for you to look into. I would strongly suggest against any canister filter though as i personally have never heard anything good about them. I would say get a sump. As we go on through this hobby and help educate each other it's essentially become best practice. There are 1000 reasons to have a sump and you will thank god you did if you get one. The good out ways the bad on that one. area to dose, water change, hide equipment, remove nutrients, isolate specimens, place invasive beneficial specimens, and many other reasons why sump and fuge are good. I am definitely not a pro at this, but i figured i would attempt to help. Been in it around year now. Just my .02 Best of luck.

07/31/2013, 11:30 AM	#5
DemonFish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 48	Thanks for the help. That definately seems like good information, and is definately what I'm looking for. Trying to cover all my bases and do things right the first time instead of struggling or having to go back and make changes.

08/01/2013, 10:13 AM	#6
Rbaker1325 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 95	No problem. thats why were all here. to help one another and grow the hobby.

08/01/2013, 12:40 PM	#7
jonwright Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 658	Can you without sump? yeah...I've read where folks have done that. Is it easy? Not really. I have a 44 w/o a sump and I see really quickly how it helps. I'm doing a "simple" tank to get started before I get a large tank with all the complicated goodies to figure out along the way (ATO? no. ReefKeeper? No. Probes? no. Dosers? no. Chiller? no. Mh lighting? No. LED lights with changable spectrum? No. GFO reactor? No. HOB skimmer? Yeah.). Honestly, I've a fresh water background as well and I"m telling you - getting the hang of chemistry by itself without managing all the equipment may very well keep you busy for a while. Certainly is me. I started reading and researching in Jan and put up my tank 2 months ago, and I've found a marked difference between understanding an article, on say, Ph levels, alkalaninity, calcium and managing that vs. diagnosing what needs to be done and taking the correct approach. Let alone carefully selecting livestock and equipment. I've ready horror stories with folks husing HOB overflows to put in a sump with a non-reef ready tank, and I've read where folks swear by them. Me? By the time I get that serious it's upgrade time and the 44 will either be a frag tank or QT. Maybe specimen tank. You CAN get started with what you have, and at least get your feet wet with light stocking and inverts. Complexity will go up a bit with corals. But yea...I top off my tank 2-3 times a week. An ATO would be nice for sure. But at least by doing all of this stuff by hand I get first hand experience and knowledge of exactly what is going on and it's effects without having a system get totally out of control. I also have a lot of kids around the house so I can't devote a full weekend to reading, research, and going to the store. I have to do that in small chunks, so that's how I'm approaching my tank as of now.

08/01/2013, 01:36 PM	#8
DemonFish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 48	Jon, This is a very similar situation to what I am in (I have a toddler). I really want to get my feet wet in salt water. I have a good grasp on what I've read, but like with many things I'm sure it is much different when you handle things in real life. I learn best by doing, so even though there will be a learning curve, at this point i'll probably just need to jump in and start. What would help me the best is a basic start up guide which i'm sure I can find. I know i can add a Sump, refugium, and all of the bells and whistles later. Maybe the best thing to do is start out with the basics, add a couple of hearty fish and work up from there.

08/01/2013, 06:42 PM	#9
jonwright Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 658	Yep. That's what I'm doing. And I'm getting an appreciation of the equipment. But it would be an awful lot for a person to chew on methinks. I had bought my setup used for $100 and intended it to be a quarantine. But the boys were on me so I bought $200 of live and base rock, bucket of salt and got to it. Had HOB filter, but quickly figured out why folks have skimmers. Then bought HOb skimmer. New light bulb. Now we're cookin. Glad I did. You realize there's an awful lot of incidentals that's needed. I see why mixing 40 gal of water at once is much easier than 5 gal at a time. Having your own rodi instead of buying it 10 gal at a time. Multiple nets, buckets, tubes etc. QT equipment, all that. Test kits. Easy to spend mucho $$$ all at once instead of chipping away at it. I'd like to just get it all and have a nice big tank, but I think chipping away at it is a bit better.

08/01/2013, 06:50 PM	#10
jonwright Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 658	Fenner's conscientious aquarist is a good start. Plus all the stickies. Then you'll read all that over the course of a few weeks, then get cracking. Once you get started you'll look up details. Cycle the tank. Let it get some algae going. Add clean up crews for a few weeks. Then watch the live rock bloom. Add in a couple fish one at a time. By then you'll be in themidst of working out the chemistry.

08/02/2013, 09:06 AM	#11
DemonFish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 48	Thanks again Jon. I've checked out Sk8r's simple how to thread, and it has some really good information. I actually picked up Fenner's book a while back and I've been working may way through it. Excited to get started, but I know it's at least a month if not more down the road.

08/02/2013, 02:08 PM	#13
Percher Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Costa Mesa, Ca Posts: 95	The potential is definitely there and I would argue against some of the advice being given here. Your tank, heater, and lights will definitely carry over toward the type of reef tank you want to make. I would skip on the HOB filters and canister as running them nonstop like we do for FW will make them into nitrate beds. I would hold onto them tho, you can use them to polish the water from time to time (i.e. run the canister filter every so often with carbon media in it to suck up any detritus build up and then clean it out between each use) so it isn't really a waste. Get a good HOB protein skimmer, good powerheads for water movement, and about 60-ish pounds of good live rock (lots of coraline algae coverage if possible...I see lots of stores selling bare rock in stinky bins as live rock these days). Save yourself a few dollars and skip on the live sand and get the dry stuff instead. Your rock will seed your sand with the beneficial bacteria and have great biodiversity than anything you can get from pre-packaged sand. You definitely do NOT need a sump/fuge to have a successful reef tank; especially not for what you are looking to do. Sumps and fuges definitely have their advantages but they aren't a requirement. Having good surface flow and perhaps a surface skimmer for your protein skimmer (or a powerhead) can provide good enough gas exchange to keep things happy and healthy. I also would not go the route of adding fish to get the hang of things; especially if fish are a secondary consideration in what you ultimately want to achieve with the tank. Fish are generally the LAST thing on my list of animals to be added to the tank for a couple of reasons. First, most fish will feast on the detritivores that are of significant benefit to the health of your tank and to your corals. Secondly, fish will generally add a significant bioload to the tank (depending on size, species, feeding etc of fish). Some of my most successful tanks have had only corals and inverts in them till much later on and even then the fish were added very sparingly and with only a direct benefit to the health of the tank in mind.

08/02/2013, 06:38 PM	#14
mgraf Registered Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Canal Fulton Posts: 741	Definately doable. I ran a reef with softies and some small fish for years without a sump and skimmer. Diligent water change schedule is your best friend. IMO, people on RC make it sound a lot harder to start a reef than what it really is. Of course you can make it as complicated as you want it to be, or as simple as you want. Couple hardy fish, and soft corals are way more forgiving than most act like. Get your feet wet, start small, and save your money, once you get the itch, you'll be buying equipment and working your way to an upgrade. Trust me, it's addictive

08/06/2013, 07:30 AM	#15
DemonFish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 48	Alright, I'm sure I can sell off the old filters in a FW forum or on Ebay (may hold on to one to polish the water). I know I'd need a skimmer and I can add a Sump at a later time. It's definately sounding more and more doable to me. What do you use to filter your QT's?