Stocking advice

[wizzin]

Well, after ditching the idea to start a SW tank for about 5 years I finally decided to set one up. I've got a 40 breeder w/ around 50lbs of LR, a medium CPR HOB fuge w/ cheato and a reef octopus HOB skimmer going.

Tank has been setup for 3 weeks. The LR was pretty much cured LR from the LFS. I had a (what I believe to be) normal cycle. Ammonia spiked, nitrite spiked, nitrate went up. I've done 2 wc and as of 3 days ago, ammonia=0ppm, nitrite=0ppm and nitrate=0-0.3 (hard to read exactly but it's almost unreadable). I started the tank w/ RO/DI water and instant ocean reef crystals. The skimmer seems really good. I was getting good skimmate for a few days while the cycle was peaking. Since the last wc it hasn't produced much of anything. I don't think there's much left to skim. No feedings and I don't think there's really much die-off from the rock.

It seems to me, there isn't much in the way of nutrients in the tank at this point. When the cycle was nearing completion I kept the lights off except for the fuge so the cheato can do it's thing. There isn't much in the way of algae in the main tank. A few spots here and there but I think it's having a hard time w/out light. My plan was to leave the lights off (except for 2 small moonlight LED's) for a while. I wanted to keep nutrients down and not give any algae a chance. I assume though, that algae will come at some point when I have the lights back on.

So here's the question(s); my plan was to add a single clown soon. Not sure how soon, but I'm fairly confident the primary nitrate cycle is done. I assume once the clown is in and he's fed and I start having the lights on for a limited period during the day I'll see algae.

• How soon should I add snails or crabs?

• I've read all kinds of things about snails and crabs lately. I really like crabs but it seems like snails are better at algae control?

• Am I right that I understand you should choose one or the other? Read about hermits killing snails for shells/food?

• I'd skip hermits if emerald crabs are a better option? I really like the looks/actions of the emerald crabs. Could I do them w/ snails?

• Same w/ a shrimp. I like shrimp. I really like the blood red fire shrimp but I'm not sure they'e the best "cleaner"? What is the best beginner shrimp?

Basically, I want to start stocking as slowly as possible to ramp up the bio-load as slowly as possible so the bacteria can grow w/ the load. The order in which I stock is what I'm not sure about. Should I stock a single fish and wait for algae to start before adding any kind of cleaner? I don't want to starve the cleaners. Should I add cleaners before algae and supplement their diet w/ greens n meat?

My plan for the tank is to eventually add corals but I'm not sure exactly what yet. It will be a while before the tank is ready for corals anyway so I've got time to research that more and decide. The lighting is a coralife lunar aqualight (2 10,000K t5ho and 2 actnic t5ho + 2 "moonlight" LED's) which I love for the independent switches/wires for day/night simulation. I assume this light is sufficient for some corals. Sure seems bright enough!

Stock list would be (comments/suggestions GREATLY appreciated):

1 or 2 Clowns (leaning toward 2)

firefish or Royal Gramma not sure which yet

Spotted Cardinal

Eventually/maybe (probably the last to be added if at all) flame angel (40 breeder big enough?)

Eventually a jawfish (not sure which species yet) and I kind of planned on this from the beginning w/ about a 2 or 2-1/2" deep mixed sand bed.

Other fish I like/may substitute: chromis (could I do 3 chroms in a 40B?), bicolor dottyback, sailfin blenny (
My plan is to arrive at this kind of list over the course of about a year? I'll probably have the clown(s) alone for at least a month.

Biggest question is regarding when to stock crabs n such. I don't plan on adding any corals for probably 6-8 months. Right now I'm trying to decide on which ATO to setup (any advice here?). I've got a 20 long I'll be setting up under the tank for FW ato and eventually kalk dosing when I get to the corals point.

Am I on the right track here? Sorry for the long, wordy post. Lots of questions. Hope I've done my homework thus far. Lots of info out there. Lots of conflicting info. Lots of "questionable" info including my LFS! I think if I would have listened to my LFS I would be in for a disaster! They said I could add fish in a week or less as long as I used bio-spira I know that "can" work but I personally don't think it's a good idea.

Last question; Am I right to plan on quarantining the first fish (and all subsequent new additions)? I have a 55 gallon I planned to setup for QT. Keep it BB w/ just a heater and pump for circulation. Frequent wc etc. Should I buy 1or2 clowns and qt them for 2/3 weeks? While my LFS is questionable on advice, I do know they take very good care of their stock and I know they QT most new additions and have a good system. Most if not all of their stock looks really nice. I'd still rather not get a parasite infestation in the LR/Sand.

[thegrun]

1. Add your CUC as soon as the cycle is complete. Start with a smaller CUC and add to it as needed.
2. A mix of several sepcies of snails should be your primary CUC member. I like small hermit crabs, many do not. Crabs can be a problem as they grow as they can and will eat fish if given the chance, I do not use them, some do.
3. I prefer hermits over emeral crabs, they are simply safer to keep with your fish.
4. Skunk (cleaner) shrimp get along well with most reef organisms. Fire shrimp will eat other shrimp.

[Sugar Magnolia]

I have the exact same set up. Since the tank is so new you can go light on your clean up crew. As the tank matures you can add to the clean up crew as needed. Diversity is the key. dDfferent snails do different jobs. Turbos and trochus snails will do a great job on the rockwork and glass. Ceriths and nassarius will keep the sand bed clean.

I'm going to suggest adding any peaceful fish to the tank first. The problem with adding the clown first is that they can be very territorial. It won't take long for the clown to establish the tank as it's territory. There's a chance that it may attack any other fish you try to introduce down the road. So firefish and cardinals would be better to add first. I'd skip the flame angel in that size tank. They are on of the larger species of dwarf angels but they relly need a much larger tank. I have an African flameback angel in mine and it is all over the tank.

As far as crabs go...for hermits, just provide plenty of empty shells for them. they will fight, they will take each other out and they will find a particular snail's shell that they want. No going around that so either you deal with it or you don't use hermits. I use them. Mithrax crabs are ominvores. They are also opportunistic feeders like all crabs. I keep mine well fed with nori and sinking invert pellets.

And, yes, yes, yes to quarantining your fish. There's a stickie at the top of this forum that goes into detail about it.


To Reef Central

[that guy]

WOW. I started my tank a year ago this month and has almost an identical set up to yours. My tank is also 38g, very close to yours.
I also have
Reef octopus skimmer
cpr fuge
6 bulb fixture also with blue leds and timers

Anyway back to your question. Mr saltwatertank has a great video about picking a clean up crew which explains how to pick it.

In terms of the different members, each is in your tank to perform a different job. The snails depending on the species will eat algae (Mexican turbo) or may be carnivorous and eat left over food and dead animals (nassarius snails). I have never heard of them attacking a fish and they live under the sand and pop up when it's feeding time, very cool.

Hermit crabs are in the tank to eat left over food. If you do get these guys I recommend red leg or blue leg. ( They will be sold by these names but I believe there is also a large variety of these hermit crabs which you should avoid). I have heard stories of large hermits going after fish. The blue legged ones seem to be less aggressive towards each other than the red legs so if available go for those. Also hermit crabs don't make their own shells and as they grow they need new ones. They will fight over shells so to stop this scatter extra shells of many sizes in the tank for them. Emerald crabs are used by people mainly to combat bubble algae. Emerald crabs are a toss up. On these forums you will hear that every fish is different. This is true with emerald crabs. They can be well behaved and only eat algae and left over food or they may attack fish as they get bigger. It's a toss up.

Shrimp are probably the coolest cuc member. A fire shrimp is beautiful however they are generally more expensive, can be more aggressive yet they do the same job as any other cleaner shrimp. Not sure if it was a question but cleaner refers to any shrimp in the Lysmata genus of shrimp. Skunk cleaners are probably the most common. I've also had peppermint shrimp before and they do a good job as well however they are more nocturnal than the others and I didn't get to see him as much. Some eat aptasia though which is a huge plus.

On to fish
I have 2 ocellaris clowns as well and I love them. Even though you want to take it slow which is good, do not wait too long before your next fish being added. If the clowns mature (try and buy them as juveniles, they will pair up on their own and change genders) then they will consider the whole tank their territory and attack other fish.
Loved my royal gramma, beautiful fish. Lost it in the power outages from hurricane sandy.
Banggais are probably my favorite cardinal. captive bred is the only way to go with these guys as they are endangered in the wild. No experience with spotted.
I've hear mixed reviews about having a flame in a 40g tank. Some places say yes, some say no. Mine unfortunately died in quarantine so I never found out. If you do get it then it being the last fish is a good idea and have a plan for if it ever does get too big, where it can go for a new home, or you upgrade your tank for it.
I would avoid the chromis. Recently I have heard lots of stories of them becoming hard to keep as well as killing each other off.
The bi color dotty back and sailfin blenny are fine fish, however the gramma and dottyback look very similar so you can't have both as their will be aggression issues. I don't think the blennie looks to similar but I would be careful.

You are definitely on the right track. It's good that you are taking what the lfs says with a grain of salt. They may care about fish but they also need to move fish along so they can stay open. Use good judgment.

For the quarantine you should take a sponge and keep it in the dt so it builds up bacteria then when it comes time to quarantine you already have some bacteria. Keep some prime on hand so if nitrate ever spikes to dangerous levels you can bring it down.
I didn't quarantine my first fish but it may be a good idea.
Post if you have any other questions.

[wizzin]

Thanks for the advice!

Cool to hear from others w/ the same setup! I know HOB skimmers are kind of "poo poo'd" on, but I gotta say, the reef octopus is really nice. I was actually kind of shocked at how well it seems to be working. It's amazing how the water can look crystal clear and yet that crap comes out! LOL

Good call on peaceful fish first. If I added the clowns as juvies (which my LFS has many of) would that give me time to slowly add others before the clowns reach the territorial stage? Honestly haven't looked into clown growth rate. I knew they were "herms" but I didn't know how long it would take for them to decide which team they played on or how long until they started to become aggressive.

I'm probably going to go w/ a skunk shrimp. I'll go with a few hermits and provide a bunch of shells for them. I'll start w/ smaller snails for now and get into bigger ones if/when I see the need for their expertise.

I'll probably go w/ the sailfin for that part of the tank. I realize in a 40B I'm limited in terms of space for each part of the water column. I'll skip the chromis and hold out until I get a bigger tank for a flame angel. I'll have to decide on the clowns too really. I know they're "cliche" but I actually really like em

I'm going to go to the LFS today for more salt and probably a small cuc. I've noticed quite a few pods in my fuge already that must have come w/ the cheato. I went through it very carefully and pulled a few baby bristlworms out but I missed the pods which good thing! I'm sure there's some other stuff in there too

I think part of my questioning is to understand what is too long to wait. I don't want to starve the bacteria colony out to the point that when I do add something it cycles again. I think I'm right in the "zone" to get things going. Definitely out of the nitrate cycle right now. I've tested about 6 times since I noticed there were 0 nitrites (three days ago) and it's still showing 0,0,0.

I'll post an update here when I get something worth looking at

Thanks again for the advice.

More is always welcome too!

[wizzin]

Thought I'd update the thread a little. These pics aren't really current. Just thought I'd post them for interest.

Sorry about the crappy cell phone pics.




Back around the 5th of August I bought 2 emerald crabs, 3 red leg hermits, 4 turbo snails and a pencil urchin. They have all done really well. No losses. I thought I lost an emerald crab, but I discovered it was just a molt. They seem to molt a lot! Is that normal? Later, (about 3 weeks ago) I bought 2 baby (3/4" long) ocellaris clowns. They're doing great. Eating well. I've been feeding a few times a week a variety of foods (daphnia, mysis and new life spectrum pellets) which they seem to love.

What seems to be really cool is I've had a little bit of brown algae that shows up as a light dusting on the sand. I cut the lights back since there's no corals in the tank and the CUC devours it overnight. They're doing a great job of keeping everything tidy. So I'm at month 2 now w/ no algae issues at all. I did discover I have some bristle worms and flatworms in the refuge, but I haven't seen any undesirables in the tank itself.

The fuge is almost insane with the number of (I believe) mostly amphipods! At night when the lights switch off and the fuge light comes on, the walls of the fuge and the mass of cheato are completely covered in pods. I've been shaking the cheato off a few times a week to get the pods down in the tank. I've looked a few times late at night with a flashlight and it's insane the number of pods/critters living in the rocks in the main tank!

I guess I'm going to have to get rid of some cheato soon. The fuge is completely packed now. The nice thing is, I've still got no detectable nitrates and I got a Hanna phosphate checker and it still reads zero as well. I think the cheato fuge plays a role in that. I also have been religious about doing a 20% WC every other week on Wednesday. That's probably a big help too. I don't feed all that much and I see the crab army cleaning up the leftovers really well.

I added a BRS screen kit which is a really nice kit. Worth every penny. I also added a Tunze ATO which is rockstar! I love the optical eye and the backup float alarm. I've got it hooked up to a 5 gallon tank that I keep topped off w/ fresh R/O water. Amazing how much water a 40 breeder evaps in a day. Still amazed by the reef octopus skimmer. That thing pulls black sludge out like nobody's biznass! Really surprised at how well it works. I think the ATO plays a big role in keeping it skimming consistently. I haven't adjusted it since I set it up.

So now I need to decide on the next fish. I really like Royal Grammas. I'm leaning toward one of those. I'll probably add one and let it go for a month or two before thinking about the next purchase. I'll probably do a cleaner shirmp w/ the next fish too. Maybe.

Next big step will be corals too. I need to get a calcium test kit. I think I'll do a reef foundation kit or some such deal. I think I'll try zoa's first? I've been trying to read up on corals for a while now. I think if I ease into it I should be alright.

Sorry for the big long winded post. I'm usually terrible about updating threads so I'm going to try to keep going on this. I guess at some point I should start a build thread.

Any/All feedback appreciated.

Phil

[orteh22]

this is good read, very informative. Coming from fresh water, this is a whole new ball game

[wizzin]

Originally Posted by orteh22

this is good read, very informative. Coming from fresh water, this is a whole new ball game

Thanks! Glad I helped, though I'm a NEWB too! Yeah, w/ years and years of FW experience, I can confirm, the experience doesn't translate. HOWEVER, one thing I've learned from FW that DOES apply (I think) is one important key. Plants consume waste. Get a sturdy plant base thriving and you've cut out a big problem. Do it early and you can avoid big problems later. While I have ZERO data to back this up, my theory is that having plants in your system (FW or SW) adds some other benefit to the system beyond cleaning power. I feel like it makes the water better for fish in some other way. All my FW tanks are planted and fish are happy.

Just took these pics. Phone pics again. I'll get the "real" camera after the tank here soon.

Couldn't get a good pic of the clowns by themselves due to the poor shutter speed of the phone, but you can see them in the back.


one of the hermits I caught out in the open:


One of the emerald crabs hanging out under an overhang on the rock:


Little bit of rogue cheato in there from a recent pod evacuation drill in the fuge

[wizzin]

Little update. I finally added 2 new fish. This honestly may be it for stocking. I got a Royal Gramma and a 6 line wrasse. The Royal gramma is by far my favorite fish. He's very docile and spends all his daylight time in the one area of the tank in the open. I was afraid he would hide all the time but so far he cruises around a lot. The wrasse is silly active. In and out of the rocks and zooming all over the tank. Very cool fish.

You can see both here:


I also added my first corals. They seem to be very happy. I've monitored my params very closely from day one. I also started the tank from day one with reef crystals so it's really been reef ready for a while now. I bought a hanna phosphate checker and it still showing zero. Same w/ nitrates. zero. I still attribute that in part to the cheato. The cheato completely filled the fuge w/ a huge dense mass. I actually pulled half of it out and filled a big plastic coffee can w/ it and traded it and the pencil urchin (bulldozer) partly for the coral.

Euphyllia (and candy in the top bkg):


hydnophora:


Monti at night:


Zoa frags:


There's also a green slimer and another acro I'm not entirely sure the name of. Both are glowing green I'll have to take pics later. They're quite small frags. Maybe 1/2" - 3/4"...

I also added a scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp with the 2 new fish. The fish haven't warmed up to him yet, but recently they've been checking him out a bit. He cleans my hands when I'm cleaning the tank so hopefully that keeps him happy until the fish decide to use his services.

I'm really getting into this now. The coral aspect is really cool. I'm going to grow out the frags I have now and then add some more in the future.

I think my next purchase is an MP10. Following that an Apex. I do wish I would've done the apex to start, but as you all know, the startup cost on a reef tank is high and that was one expense I couldn't deal with at the time. Should be easy enough to add it on. After those two, I think I'll get a reefbreeders fixture. Those lights are really sweet!

So that's where I'm at now. So far no bad algae at all and I'm seeing some really nice coraline algae starting to encrust the equipment and rocks.

I'm already thinking about upgrading to a large tank. That might be a while, but one project I'm eyeing up right now is converting my Mr. Aqua 12g long into a frag growout tank. No fish. No LR. Just flow and light and coral frags. Tired of the FW algae garden it's turned into and I think it would be a cool frag tank.

That's my update. I think it's been almost exactly 3 months since startup.