ATO help

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 08:05 AM

Hey guys, I've been in saltwater for about 9 months, but just now wanting to setup an ATO and I am having the hardest time. I've searched for a while now, but not having any luck...maybe I'm just missing it.

I have a 90 gallon DT with a 30 gallon sump divided into 3 chambers. Problem is that the water level in the DT goes down d/t evaporation, but my sump stays constant. I have an overflow in the back mid portion of my DT that has a straight piece of PVC that also has slits cut out of the sides in the upper third of the pipe.

Am I right in thinking the only way and ato will work correctly is wait for enough evaporation so that the water essentially trickles into the bottom slits of the pipe only? Up until now I have been doing manual top-offs and I keep the overflow water at the same height as my DT. It has been quiet, but I have never been able to get my sump water level to go down with evaporation.

Hopefully that helps, thanks in advance.

shifty51008 · 09/15/2013, 08:17 AM

something is not correct, when you have a sump the only place where the water level will move is the return section.

is it possiable to take pics of your setup so we can get an idea of how it is running

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 08:32 AM

I'm out of the house most of the day today but ill try to ASAP.

I'm thinking that because my water level is essentially always over my drain pipe that there is a constant rate of water coming down it and thus my sump level doesn't change. I have not tested that out yet though.

gone fishin · 09/15/2013, 08:35 AM

That is a bit of a mystery. Some pics may help.

eacosta · 09/15/2013, 08:35 AM

I agree with shifty51008 that the return sump chamber is the place where the water level should go down. Pictures would help. Based on your description, it seems that the water level in the DT should be at the slits not the top of the pipe. Maybe by design, the top is the emergency overflow if the slits get clogged. Never seen a design like that, but seems like it would work. The water level in the sump will never go down as long as the slits allow water to return.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 08:40 AM

That's what I'm thinking eacosta. I bought the tank used off Craigslist so not sure of the plumbing decisions. I'm thinking the bottom slit will have to be the only one receiving water for the sump to work as intended.

shifty51008 · 09/15/2013, 08:45 AM

you should be able to lower the water level in the DT by slowing down the return pump with a ball valve. if there isn't a ball valve on the return pump add one to the output side (never restrict water flow to the pump) and adjust as nessasary.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 08:47 AM

Since I'm not home atm my drain pipe looks like this.

http://www.mofga.org/Portals/2/Reprints/Vermi%204.jpg

The slits are wider and only on the upper third of the pipe.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 08:51 AM

My drain has a gate valve on it and my return pump has speed settings but no valve on it.

eacosta · 09/15/2013, 08:55 AM

Curious how far down the slits are? On a 90 (48x18x24) each inch of height lost is about 3.7g of water lost. Probably not an issue, but I like to keep as much water volume as possible.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 08:58 AM

They are down pretty far. My 90 is a 36x24x24. The overflow runs the length of the tank down the middle and the teeth are at the top so I only really lose water volume in my overflow if that makes sense.

eacosta · 09/15/2013, 09:00 AM

Have you tried closing the gate valve some to restrict the overflow rate? The slits might also be a siphon break to restrict back flow in the case of a power outage.

shifty51008 · 09/15/2013, 09:02 AM

make sure the gate valve on the drain is wide open you don't wanna restrict the drain lines, that could be a flood waiting to happen.

I don't understand the slits in your drain line though, I have never seen one like that and don't understand the reason, I would just replumb the overflow with a durso will be very easy to do.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 09:03 AM

I have eacosta...I've toyed with it a lot over the months.

Curious to those with normal setups since mine is weird. Does your drain pipe stay constantly submerged or does water essentially waterfall into it?

eacosta · 09/15/2013, 09:03 AM

I guess pics of your system would help when you get back home.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 09:09 AM

Ok. Thanks for the help everyone.

Rumjahn · 09/15/2013, 09:47 AM

Following with interest. Like the others said, if your system is working correctly, water level in DT should be constant.

Are you saying that the water level inside your overflow is dropping, and that's where your adding it? It can't be dropping in the main tank, because once it does then it will no longer overflow into the overflow!

eacosta · 09/15/2013, 09:55 AM

Ok 1 more try at the guessing game

.

Are you using an overflow box? The box would bring the water level up and constant to the teeth height. The alternative is to bring the water level down to the slits in the pipe. Me personally, I would use a box.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 10:37 AM

Sorry I don't have actual pics, I'm out of town until tonight. Perhaps my problem is I have been keeping too much water in the tank.

The tank is drilled at the bottom of the tank and the overflow runs the height of the tank. It is similar to the corner overflow about halfway doen this page except mine is in the middle of the tank.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/

Up to now I've been keeping the water level in the tank even or slightly over the teeth of the overflow. When evaporation happens it only loses water in the DT. I'm thinking this is because technically the drain is always completely submerged. With the slits in the drain pipe the water level in my overflow has to go down quite a bit before it would only waterfall in and not be submerged.

Sorry again if it sounds like I'm talking Greek. I appreciate your help. Hopefully some pics when I get home will help.

Rumjahn · 09/15/2013, 10:45 AM

Sounds like the water level in your DT is too high. With that kind of overflow, the water is supposed to come through the teeth, not over them.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 08:24 PM

This is my tank. So I didn't top it off today and as you can see the water level is pretty low in the overflow. My Sump water level still hasn't changed as I'm guessing there is just enough water in the drain to keep it from doing that. Only problem is it is extremely loud now that I let the water level down. It has air in the line from it not being submerged and causing it to be loud.

Only thing I can think of is using a peristaltic pump to pump rodi water since this is baffling me.

Rumjahn · 09/15/2013, 09:23 PM

I have no idea what those slits in the drain pipe are supposed to accomplish. You're better off without them. Replace that pipe with a solid one, and the water level in your overflow will be at the level of the top of the pipe. The higher level will quiet the waterfall. If it's still too loud, there's other stuff you can do (like a Durso). But first just change out that slotted pipe.

Actually, now that I think about it, those slots are probably a failsafe against a drain clog...a snail, fish, or piece of coral covering up the top of the pipe would be bad, unless the water had another route to drain, hence the slits. But that means you'd have to adjust your flows to submerge that pipe, which probably involves restricting flow through that drain.

I would just go ahead and replace that slotted pipe with a solid one and see how that works.

kylathwe · 09/15/2013, 09:31 PM

Ok thanks. This ato thing has been making me scratch my head for awhile. I guess it is a plumbing issue.

Rumjahn · 09/15/2013, 09:36 PM

Definitely a plumbing issue. A defining characteristic of any overflow box is that it keeps your water level constant in the tank that it sits in. You should not be topping off the tank with an overflow in it.

There's something wrong with the return side if the overflow is draining too quickly. You were assuming it was due to evaporation, but I'm pretty sure there's a slight mismatch in the amount of water being drained and the amount being returned. It's draining faster than it can be pumped back up.

Open up all the valves in your system for complete unobstructed flow. Check your lines for clogs or buildup. How old is the pump? Could it be failing? How long have you had the system, and has it always done this, or is this a new phenomenon?

oscarinw · 09/15/2013, 09:47 PM

I believe you are running a Herbie type of overflow system. The way it is supposed to work is that the shorter pipe (the one with the slits) needs to be completely covered by water and you need to adjust the gate valve to the point where your water level is constant between the top of the pipe with slits and the other overflow which is your emergency drain. If for some reason you start getting your main drain clogged, the water will start raising and your water will start draining through the second pipe. The way herbie is supposed to work is that the lower pipe (the one with slits) needs to make a full siphon. In other words, you have no air being sucked into the drain line. So from your pictures, it is possible that the top pvc end was moved placed on the wrong pipe... possibly.
One thing I did not notice is whether you have the 2nd pipe (the one on the right of the picture) as return. If so, then scratch everything I've said because Herbie needs the 2nd pipe as the emergency drain.
The only reason I believe this is your case is because you said there's a gate valve on your main drain and that's very classic Herbie design. Herbie has become widely adopted for being a super-silent system with a redundancy measure. I am planning on going in that direction myself.
Furthermore, If you have an overflow box around the drain lines, then maybe the box needs to be resealed. This would explain your DT level dropping. That would also explain why you are not seeing a level drop in the sump.
REMEMBER: For Herbie to work, the main drain needs to be completely submerged in water but before the water starts going into the emergency drain.
I hope this helps and good luck with things!

09/15/2013, 08:05 AM	#1
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	ATO help Hey guys, I've been in saltwater for about 9 months, but just now wanting to setup an ATO and I am having the hardest time. I've searched for a while now, but not having any luck...maybe I'm just missing it. I have a 90 gallon DT with a 30 gallon sump divided into 3 chambers. Problem is that the water level in the DT goes down d/t evaporation, but my sump stays constant. I have an overflow in the back mid portion of my DT that has a straight piece of PVC that also has slits cut out of the sides in the upper third of the pipe. Am I right in thinking the only way and ato will work correctly is wait for enough evaporation so that the water essentially trickles into the bottom slits of the pipe only? Up until now I have been doing manual top-offs and I keep the overflow water at the same height as my DT. It has been quiet, but I have never been able to get my sump water level to go down with evaporation. Hopefully that helps, thanks in advance.

09/15/2013, 08:17 AM	#2
shifty51008 12-5 Chiefs record Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 10,134	something is not correct, when you have a sump the only place where the water level will move is the return section. is it possiable to take pics of your setup so we can get an idea of how it is running __________________ 75 gal. mixed DT, 100 gal. sump, 50 gal. fuge, Clownfish breeder

09/15/2013, 08:35 AM	#4
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	That is a bit of a mystery. Some pics may help. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

09/15/2013, 08:45 AM	#7
shifty51008 12-5 Chiefs record Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 10,134	you should be able to lower the water level in the DT by slowing down the return pump with a ball valve. if there isn't a ball valve on the return pump add one to the output side (never restrict water flow to the pump) and adjust as nessasary. __________________ 75 gal. mixed DT, 100 gal. sump, 50 gal. fuge, Clownfish breeder

09/15/2013, 09:02 AM	#13
shifty51008 12-5 Chiefs record Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 10,134	make sure the gate valve on the drain is wide open you don't wanna restrict the drain lines, that could be a flood waiting to happen. I don't understand the slits in your drain line though, I have never seen one like that and don't understand the reason, I would just replumb the overflow with a durso will be very easy to do. __________________ 75 gal. mixed DT, 100 gal. sump, 50 gal. fuge, Clownfish breeder

09/15/2013, 08:32 AM	#3
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	I'm out of the house most of the day today but ill try to ASAP. I'm thinking that because my water level is essentially always over my drain pipe that there is a constant rate of water coming down it and thus my sump level doesn't change. I have not tested that out yet though.

09/15/2013, 08:35 AM	#5
eacosta Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: MD Posts: 135	I agree with shifty51008 that the return sump chamber is the place where the water level should go down. Pictures would help. Based on your description, it seems that the water level in the DT should be at the slits not the top of the pipe. Maybe by design, the top is the emergency overflow if the slits get clogged. Never seen a design like that, but seems like it would work. The water level in the sump will never go down as long as the slits allow water to return.

09/15/2013, 08:40 AM	#6
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	That's what I'm thinking eacosta. I bought the tank used off Craigslist so not sure of the plumbing decisions. I'm thinking the bottom slit will have to be the only one receiving water for the sump to work as intended.

09/15/2013, 08:47 AM	#8
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	Since I'm not home atm my drain pipe looks like this. http://www.mofga.org/Portals/2/Reprints/Vermi%204.jpg The slits are wider and only on the upper third of the pipe.

09/15/2013, 08:51 AM	#9
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	My drain has a gate valve on it and my return pump has speed settings but no valve on it.

09/15/2013, 08:55 AM	#10
eacosta Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: MD Posts: 135	Curious how far down the slits are? On a 90 (48x18x24) each inch of height lost is about 3.7g of water lost. Probably not an issue, but I like to keep as much water volume as possible.

09/15/2013, 08:58 AM	#11
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	They are down pretty far. My 90 is a 36x24x24. The overflow runs the length of the tank down the middle and the teeth are at the top so I only really lose water volume in my overflow if that makes sense.

09/15/2013, 09:00 AM	#12
eacosta Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: MD Posts: 135	Have you tried closing the gate valve some to restrict the overflow rate? The slits might also be a siphon break to restrict back flow in the case of a power outage.

09/15/2013, 09:03 AM	#14
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	I have eacosta...I've toyed with it a lot over the months. Curious to those with normal setups since mine is weird. Does your drain pipe stay constantly submerged or does water essentially waterfall into it?

09/15/2013, 09:09 AM	#16
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	Ok. Thanks for the help everyone.

09/15/2013, 09:47 AM	#17
Rumjahn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 114	Following with interest. Like the others said, if your system is working correctly, water level in DT should be constant. Are you saying that the water level inside your overflow is dropping, and that's where your adding it? It can't be dropping in the main tank, because once it does then it will no longer overflow into the overflow!

09/15/2013, 09:55 AM	#18
eacosta Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: MD Posts: 135	Ok 1 more try at the guessing game . Are you using an overflow box? The box would bring the water level up and constant to the teeth height. The alternative is to bring the water level down to the slits in the pipe. Me personally, I would use a box.

09/15/2013, 10:37 AM	#19
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	Sorry I don't have actual pics, I'm out of town until tonight. Perhaps my problem is I have been keeping too much water in the tank. The tank is drilled at the bottom of the tank and the overflow runs the height of the tank. It is similar to the corner overflow about halfway doen this page except mine is in the middle of the tank. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/ Up to now I've been keeping the water level in the tank even or slightly over the teeth of the overflow. When evaporation happens it only loses water in the DT. I'm thinking this is because technically the drain is always completely submerged. With the slits in the drain pipe the water level in my overflow has to go down quite a bit before it would only waterfall in and not be submerged. Sorry again if it sounds like I'm talking Greek. I appreciate your help. Hopefully some pics when I get home will help.

09/15/2013, 10:45 AM	#20
Rumjahn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 114	Sounds like the water level in your DT is too high. With that kind of overflow, the water is supposed to come through the teeth, not over them.

09/15/2013, 09:23 PM	#22
Rumjahn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 114	I have no idea what those slits in the drain pipe are supposed to accomplish. You're better off without them. Replace that pipe with a solid one, and the water level in your overflow will be at the level of the top of the pipe. The higher level will quiet the waterfall. If it's still too loud, there's other stuff you can do (like a Durso). But first just change out that slotted pipe. Actually, now that I think about it, those slots are probably a failsafe against a drain clog...a snail, fish, or piece of coral covering up the top of the pipe would be bad, unless the water had another route to drain, hence the slits. But that means you'd have to adjust your flows to submerge that pipe, which probably involves restricting flow through that drain. I would just go ahead and replace that slotted pipe with a solid one and see how that works.

09/15/2013, 09:31 PM	#23
kylathwe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 244	Ok thanks. This ato thing has been making me scratch my head for awhile. I guess it is a plumbing issue.

09/15/2013, 09:36 PM	#24
Rumjahn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 114	Definitely a plumbing issue. A defining characteristic of any overflow box is that it keeps your water level constant in the tank that it sits in. You should not be topping off the tank with an overflow in it. There's something wrong with the return side if the overflow is draining too quickly. You were assuming it was due to evaporation, but I'm pretty sure there's a slight mismatch in the amount of water being drained and the amount being returned. It's draining faster than it can be pumped back up. Open up all the valves in your system for complete unobstructed flow. Check your lines for clogs or buildup. How old is the pump? Could it be failing? How long have you had the system, and has it always done this, or is this a new phenomenon? Last edited by Rumjahn; 09/15/2013 at 09:47 PM.

09/15/2013, 09:47 PM	#25
oscarinw Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Western Massachusetts Posts: 1,091	I believe you are running a Herbie type of overflow system. The way it is supposed to work is that the shorter pipe (the one with the slits) needs to be completely covered by water and you need to adjust the gate valve to the point where your water level is constant between the top of the pipe with slits and the other overflow which is your emergency drain. If for some reason you start getting your main drain clogged, the water will start raising and your water will start draining through the second pipe. The way herbie is supposed to work is that the lower pipe (the one with slits) needs to make a full siphon. In other words, you have no air being sucked into the drain line. So from your pictures, it is possible that the top pvc end was moved placed on the wrong pipe... possibly. One thing I did not notice is whether you have the 2nd pipe (the one on the right of the picture) as return. If so, then scratch everything I've said because Herbie needs the 2nd pipe as the emergency drain. The only reason I believe this is your case is because you said there's a gate valve on your main drain and that's very classic Herbie design. Herbie has become widely adopted for being a super-silent system with a redundancy measure. I am planning on going in that direction myself. Furthermore, If you have an overflow box around the drain lines, then maybe the box needs to be resealed. This would explain your DT level dropping. That would also explain why you are not seeing a level drop in the sump. REMEMBER: For Herbie to work, the main drain needs to be completely submerged in water but before the water starts going into the emergency drain. I hope this helps and good luck with things!