struggling with nutrient balance

[likefish]

This is becoming no fun!

I have a 200 gallon combined system that is 1.5 years old. 120gallon SPS display, 60 gallon euphilia tank , 40 gallon frag tank all running off of a 40 gallon sump.

Filtration is provided with a Reef Octo NW200 skimmer, vinegar dosing at 40ml a day, 1 cup C and 1 cup GFO (changed monthly +/-). I do 15 gallon water changes weekly on the system. Filter socks are used from time to time when cleaning rocks, stirring sand. Socks are changed in less than 3/4 days. There is alot of live rock in the system.

SG 1.025
temp 78 steady
alk 8
Ca 440
MG 1300-1400

I feed a custom blend of food every 3 days and flakes daily (an assortment of various flakes) to keep anthias from getting skinny.

Entire system is stocked with 10 clowns, 2 yellow tangs, 4 anthias, 5 chromis, six line wrass, mandrin, starry blenny, bleue headed wrass. My cleanup crew in the tank with the most algae is pretty sparse thanks to the blue head wrasse.

I am very good with husbandry, blowing off rocks, manual removal of algae, stirring shallow sand bed. blowing out settled detritus in sump. My flow has few dead spots and detritus is removed fairly well.

I have lighting and flow dialed in pretty nicely and am getting good growth and polyp extension on all systems.

The isssue is I can not maintain my nutrient sweet spot! i am either farming algae (turf algae in areas of high flow) or watching my indicator corals start to loose color (green montis and a few digis). I am considering adding a 40 gallon refugium to the system to try to provide high nutrient input and high nutrient export.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Will a fuge help?

[likefish]

noone with insight on refugiums to control nutrients?

i just trapped my blue headed wrasse (eats all my inverts) and hope to up my cleanup crew. Hoping they can convert some of the algae. I pruned out another cup of turf algae again today.









Now i have pale coral colors and still have algae growth. Sigh, its always something!

[Bpb]

I'm far from an expert, and some people may reply with "don't listen to this guy he's a moron" but your tank appears to be at a similar maturation state as mine is. I dealt with that same turf and green hair algae popping up everywhere for the past year or so. And I ran a cup of gfo changed monthly, and 5 tbsp rox carbon changed every two weeks with light feedings. Algae continued to overrun everything and my SPS were pale as can be. I was only feeding the fish pellets every other day, and vaccuming my sandbed at every water change, tank is 55 gal by the way.

Granted, I'm at about the two month point of changing things here, but the results have been stellar and I couldn't be happier with how things have started looking and growing. What I did...

Upgraded my skimmer (I desperately needed to, you may not need to)
Removed the purple+ bulb from my combo, and now run 3 blue+ 1 coral+ bulb (might not be applicable, dont know what style lighting you use, either way, I increased the blue wavelengths, and reduced the reds)
Started running a biopellet reactor beginning with 1/4 cup, increasing by 1/4 cup every two weeks during water change.
Heavily increased my feeding (up to about a cube of either reef frenzy, or rods food, or pe mysis = 4 days a week) (Reef Chili 3 days a week), NLS Pellets 2-3 times a day every day, and elos amino acids and carbohydrates 2 days a week

I know thats alot of food. I wanted to really spike my nutrients to get the biopellets rocking. For me nitrate tests always registered at undetectable (I have alot of display macro also), yet my corals were pale and had lots of algae. So...I accepted that I was gonna feed the algae briefly, but hope it would kill it in time. At about the one month mark, every single shred of green algae be it film, hair, or turf had completely melted and disappeared, literally every single bit of it. Unfortunately, the biopellets have encouraged a bit of cyano growth, but that I can handle, as the pull phosphates down and as I change my gfo regularly, that should knock out the cyano.

The point for me was not to make the water sterile, clean, and "ULNS". The point was to have such an aggressive filtration method, that it allowed me to feed the ever living crap out of my tank. In doing so, my colors all around have improved tremendously and growth has sped up quite a bit.

You're onto something with heavy nutrient input, heavy nutrient export. However you choose to do it (biopellets, deep sandbed, complex refugium, nitrate filter, whatever).

[franklypre]

first thing I'd do is fire your tang and get one that eats GHA.

[Fail_sh3d]

Are you changing the carbon once a month?

If so, I would bump that up to every 2 weeks. That's my preference, milage may vary.

I use a refuge in my system but on a small scale. It seems to keep things in check. I've never had green turf algae.

Once the wrasse is gone, get some emeralds crabs. I can't keep them because I have nothing on my rocks they want to eat. They would love your tank.

Try a lawnmower blenny? It could help.

[trueblackpercula]

Ok so here are a few questions.
What is your PO4 at?
What is your nitrates at?
What is your TDS at?
How old is your RO/DI unit?
Are you using good salt brand ?
How old are your bulbs?
Is your sand bed loaded with nutrients ? I no mine is (was) in the process of cleaning it.

I think you have the wrong nutrient balance going on and need to find the source that is feeding the algea. Adding more fish to clean up the algae will only mask the true problem. Oh and another thing, what is your light cycle like? Let's take it from there and see what we can find out. I am willing to bet the you have detritus build up under the sand bed and filter socks trap detritus and if not clean almost daily will do more harm then good.

From the pictures you have posted your acros look a little pale and that tells me that you have a nutrient imbalance.

Keep us posted

Here is what I started to do because of the same issues.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2361052

[likefish]

Originally Posted by trueblackpercula

Ok so here are a few questions.
What is your PO4 at?
What is your nitrates at?
What is your TDS at?
How old is your RO/DI unit?
Are you using good salt brand ?
How old are your bulbs?
Is your sand bed loaded with nutrients ? I no mine is (was) in the process of cleaning it.

I think you have the wrong nutrient balance going on and need to find the source that is feeding the algea. Adding more fish to clean up the algae will only mask the true problem. Oh and another thing, what is your light cycle like? Let's take it from there and see what we can find out. I am willing to bet the you have detritus build up under the sand bed and filter socks trap detritus and if not clean almost daily will do more harm then good.

From the pictures you have posted your acros look a little pale and that tells me that you have a nutrient imbalance.

Keep us posted

Here is what I started to do because of the same issues.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2361052

I have actually been wathcing your thread!

PO4 and Nitrates not detectable with test kits. (they are good test kits in date). The color loss says the same thing. RODI is recently replaced. 0TDS (this was my first thought). Prior to that i was seeing 1TDS on my 2 different TDS meters.

I jsut changed bulbs on the system. SLowly changed and ramped up to original photo period.

Lighting =

36 RB cree led (12 hours a day)
2 ATI Blue Plus (8 hours a day)
1coral plus and 1 aquablue special (4 hours a day)

My sandbed is suspect and i have been slowly taking it out with water changes. I might end up bare bottom (we shall see). The initial bloom occured when a powerhead got moved and stirred a hole in my sand. This was over a month ago. I thought i could get the nutrients handled by now.

Now if i reduce feeding = pale corals. If i up my feeding = continued algae growth.

[likefish]

Originally Posted by franklypre

first thing I'd do is fire your tang and get one that eats GHA.

He picks at the new growth and stays fat and happy. He wont eat the established algae patches

[likefish]

Originally Posted by Bpb

I'm far from an expert, and some people may reply with "don't listen to this guy he's a moron" but your tank appears to be at a similar maturation state as mine is. I dealt with that same turf and green hair algae popping up everywhere for the past year or so. And I ran a cup of gfo changed monthly, and 5 tbsp rox carbon changed every two weeks with light feedings. Algae continued to overrun everything and my SPS were pale as can be. I was only feeding the fish pellets every other day, and vaccuming my sandbed at every water change, tank is 55 gal by the way.

Granted, I'm at about the two month point of changing things here, but the results have been stellar and I couldn't be happier with how things have started looking and growing. What I did...

Upgraded my skimmer (I desperately needed to, you may not need to)
Removed the purple+ bulb from my combo, and now run 3 blue+ 1 coral+ bulb (might not be applicable, dont know what style lighting you use, either way, I increased the blue wavelengths, and reduced the reds)
Started running a biopellet reactor beginning with 1/4 cup, increasing by 1/4 cup every two weeks during water change.
Heavily increased my feeding (up to about a cube of either reef frenzy, or rods food, or pe mysis = 4 days a week) (Reef Chili 3 days a week), NLS Pellets 2-3 times a day every day, and elos amino acids and carbohydrates 2 days a week

I know thats alot of food. I wanted to really spike my nutrients to get the biopellets rocking. For me nitrate tests always registered at undetectable (I have alot of display macro also), yet my corals were pale and had lots of algae. So...I accepted that I was gonna feed the algae briefly, but hope it would kill it in time. At about the one month mark, every single shred of green algae be it film, hair, or turf had completely melted and disappeared, literally every single bit of it. Unfortunately, the biopellets have encouraged a bit of cyano growth, but that I can handle, as the pull phosphates down and as I change my gfo regularly, that should knock out the cyano.

The point for me was not to make the water sterile, clean, and "ULNS". The point was to have such an aggressive filtration method, that it allowed me to feed the ever living crap out of my tank. In doing so, my colors all around have improved tremendously and growth has sped up quite a bit.

You're onto something with heavy nutrient input, heavy nutrient export. However you choose to do it (biopellets, deep sandbed, complex refugium, nitrate filter, whatever).

about 6 months ago i upped my skimmer with good results. I believe it be sized appropriatly. Its a skimming machine. I am considering upping my return pump to get more water turnover in the display but and nervous that this will reduce skimmer efficiency due to dwell time. ????

I am currently dosing vinegar (30ml / day) and seeing bacteria blooms on my glass so i am hesitant to up the dose right now. I have started to increase feedings to get my color back in my corals.

Siphoning out sand with every water change.

Thanks for the reply. Im glad you won your fight. Im certain i will as well, just frustrated at the moment. (pruning a cup or more of algae every couple days is getting old!)

[toothman]

vinegar alone is not the best carbon source. You should try zeostart, it is a balanced additive. Along with zeo bac. May sound too easy of a fix, but it will most likely fix your problem. also agree with lawnmower blenny.

[dvanacker]

What are you using for your PO4 test and no gfo? Yellow tangs are the worst tangs for eating algaes....IMO. Get a naso or sailfin.

Also are you sure that skimmer is big enough. What are the stats on that thing.

[likefish]

Originally Posted by dvanacker

What are you using for your PO4 test and no gfo? Yellow tangs are the worst tangs for eating algaes....IMO. Get a naso or sailfin.

Also are you sure that skimmer is big enough. What are the stats on that thing.

GFO 1 cup changed monthly. Hanna meter for PO4 tests. Reads 0. Skimmer is rated

Reef Octopus skimmer (6 months old, cleaned at least weekly)
•Manufacturer rated for tanks up to 250 gallons
•BRS recommended for tanks up to 160 gallons

Would love to purchase a naso or sailfin but dont want to put a fish that gets that big in a 120 full of branching SPS. Im no tang natzi but it would look a bit sad to see a 12" + fish swiming in this size tank.

thank you for the suggestions!

[likefish]

Originally Posted by toothman

vinegar alone is not the best carbon source. You should try zeostart, it is a balanced additive. Along with zeo bac. May sound too easy of a fix, but it will most likely fix your problem. also agree with lawnmower blenny.

I researched carbon dosing pretty extensivly but am by no means an expert. I took a look at the zeostart and zeo bac on your reccomendation. Bacteria suppliment and carbon source is what i interpreted it to be.

You stated zeo bac was a "balanced additive" can you elaborate please.

I have a starry blenny in the tank that does a good bit of grazing. Not enough but some.

[likefish]

Started the instalation of a 40g Breeder refugium. 40 gallons of well lit chaeto. Fingers crossed that this serves a purpose. Its alot to work to get it installed. The wife has to approve all system upgrades to make sure they "look good"



water will be pumped form my sump into the fuge then gravity flow back to the sump adjacent to the return pump. The cabinet is just getting started. I plan to put a nice face on it, and a counter top for fragging and working on.

[likefish]

all of the stuff on the floor used to be in the cabinet adjacent to the tank. Both sides of the tank will now have cabinets and coutnertops. Better wire management and the addition of the fuge.