Walk through Aquarium

[maryamrafique]

hey guys, I am a student of Architecture, i have got a project for designing a WALK THROUGH AQUARIUM, it has four galleries, each of 60,000 Gallons.

Could you please tell me the details what equipment should I put in? i have no prior knowledge regarding equipments.

[ggrillo]

wow that's a project. Don't even know where to begin on equipment, as everything will probably have to be custom. Congrats on an awesome job!

[maryamrafique]

thanks. i just want the simple details like i would need a protein skimmer, a heater, what kind of pumps would be required..and so on..

[Cbsailor11]

Do you have any public aquariums near you that you can visit and talk to the staff? I live near the National Aquarium in Baltimore so my choice would be to talk to them. They sometimes provide tours of the systems areas. Also you can contact companies that build the big tanks and parts for such systems. ie Acrylic Tank Manufacturing, Reefflo, JBJ, etc. This is where I would start if it were my project. Hope it helps, keep us updated.

[mcgyvr]

I assume this is just a "pretend" assignment for school right?...

[Fishfirst]

What type of system? Fish only? Reef? Most large systems like that are fish only and employ large pumps from pentair and large sand filters made for pools. RK 2 skimmers taller than you, heater/chillers, sometimes baker cartridge filters, large bio filters and de-gassing chambers. Don't forget space for mixing large volumes of water such as as an underground reservoir.

[maryamrafique]

Cbsailor11 no, i dont have any aquarium nearby..sadly we dont have this trend in our country

fishfirst yea, its fish only. I would be glad if you could send me the detail..if you have of any large aquarium (like 40,000 gallons as you have stated) and it's electrical drawings, i would reallly thankful to you. I only need them for a school project, i guarantee that they wont be misused. thanks

[EDJFA]

If you've got the time, Mark Calahan (aka Mr. Saltwater Tank TV), did a couple of videos where he toured a large aquarium at a college, I believe. It's been a while since I watched it, but I believe they went into the guts of the tank to take a look at the gear that runs it. Videos should be on YouTube. I'd give you a link, but my work computer has YouTube blocked.

[Ikserk]

Mr. Saltwater Tank Visits The Steinhart Aquarium Philippine Reef Tank

Part I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtPnHqffuKU

Part II: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=424kuBsSQKM

[stormrider27]

The Virginia Marine Science Museum has a walk through tank. Send them an email, I bet they can help with your project: http://www.virginiaaquarium.com/abou...ontact-Us.aspx

Good luck with your project!

[ravi197699]

For this project there is lots of study and lots of videos to be watched just to get an idea and to see what is behind scenes when it comes to equipment and water chemistry.. great project and good luck

[guserto4]

Neat studio project! What year are you? I'm a B Arch grad myself. Wish I got ASSIGNED that as a design project while in school!

[maryamrafique]

thanks alotttt guys!

i am in fourth year, this is basically Engineering's assignment, not design assignment.

[guserto4]

Ohh, so more along the lines of systems analysis? Structures, mechanical, lighting, etc.?
Still fun. If you have any trouble answering questions, let me know and maybe I can help answer them.

Enjoy!

[maryamrafique]

exactly, got to do all the electrical stuff. energy calculations, loads, transformers etc. Just stuck in the middle of nowhere, i have no idea how to do this stuff. i have always been focusing more on the designing and concepts.

[Fishfirst]

sorry I do not have electrical blueprints as I was not the one to do the electrical work on the systems.

[wolfblue]

So you mean one 240,000 gallon system?

Go to RK2 Systems for protein skimmers, RK1000 are 1100GPM at a 2 minute dwell. I would use 4 for a 60 minute turnover. Each has a 1.5 hp venturi pump, use the three phase for everything.

Biological/mechanical will be big high rate sand filters. I would use four Neptune Benson 81 square foot FRP filters for 60 minutes. With four 60 hp three phase motors on Fybroc pumps (hey its design not build, go for 60 minutes).

Four Ozonia TOGC45X oxygen fed ozone gens are making 180 grams an hour for about 15 single phase amps. Plus 4 more 2 hp venturi pumps. We can do 0.5-1.0 PPM ozone in the contact tanks with that.

Now were at 74 horsepower plus 1800 watts for ozone. The main pumps will push the water to the top of the degas towers.

Lighting is sunlight. Or it gets complicated. But heating is easy, figure one single horsepower for the circulation pump. Your using a natural gas boiler, sizing that is another matter.

Cooling is way beyond complicated. Try to say it will not need cooling.

--John

[Reefer54]

If it were me,i would see if could get ahold of an engineer familiar with pool filitration and auarium filtration. you may also talk with your local city water maintenance department and see what they may offer. Then i would start emailing places like The Shedd aquarium in Chicago and other large aquarium venues....They will have tons of info on who you could talk to for more info. i would like to imagine that they would more than helpful, but there are so many public aquariums out there, you just may have to find the one that is willing to help.

I think Atlantis in the caribbean has a walk through aquarium...you may try them.

good luck
thats my 2 cents.

[NanoReefWanabe]

i think if it is just a school project...and i went through architecture as well...i would just design appropriate sized rooms for the galleries and the number of people you expect to have through your aquarium...your electrical and mechanical rooms are going to be larger then any typical building you would have designed in class...and in the case of an aquarium, the larger and more accessible the mechanical room is the easier everything will be for the staff...suffice to say, nothing used in the household hobby of reef and aquarium keeping will be anywhere near suitable for an endevour like this...most commercial equipment is about 10x the size of the largest hobby grade piece of equipment...safe to say you would need at least 3 skimmers roughly 2' in diameter by about 8-10 tall with room for an additional skimmer should the aquarium decide to expand a portion into a reef exhibit...you will need several gas boilers to heat the exhibits...think of your typical pool heater for something like this on roids..a large swimming pool is about 30000 gallons....so you would need about 8-10 regular pool heaters to take on the challenge of heating this...commercial units will be larger and you would obviously require less of them. but the simple rule here also applies more is better...it is better to have a bunch undersized units then a couple oversized ones for various reasons...(better control of heat, less chance of overheating the system if one sticks on although they typically fail off, along with many more benefits) cons of this is space, as i am sure you are confined to a certain foot print, which i am sure has to also include parking...dont forget about, washrooms, means of egress, a merchandising space, a vending space, stairs will obviously be of not much use either as it will all have to be accessible...electrical i am sure will be beyond the scope of most people here, myself included...but that said, i know the electrical room will at least 20x20ft, and there will be several electrical closets located throughout the building as well, there will also be several mechanical closets located throughout, containing valves etc...that said without an engineer to help you layout the plumbing, mechanical aspects, and electrical aspects of the aquarium you are only going to be speculating as to what you need where...and then you also have the building HVAC controls to deal with, which are not going to be typical either as there will be vast amounts of humidity to deal with...where are you located climate wise, there may be more issues to deal with there as well..this is a vast project to undertake in a school setting kinda wish i got one like that...best of luck.

[wolfblue]

Originally Posted by NanoReefWanabe

you would need at least 3 skimmers roughly 2' in diameter by about 8-10 tall with room for an additional skimmer should the aquarium decide to expand a portion into a reef exhibit

Roughly 2' ? RK1000's are 84" wide and 144" tall. You might use 2 for medium load fish and four for reef or heavy load fish/mammal.

Originally Posted by NanoReefWanabe

You will need several gas boilers to heat the exhibits.........it is better to have a bunch undersized units then a couple oversized ones for various reasons

Sounds good on paper. In the real world you will be using one boiler, and your going to heat airspaces with it also. Same for chiller, cool exhibits and run air handlers off of one chiller.

You not going to have a boiler/chiller run away because you have expensive computer controls. Like a robot that calls you(me) at 3AM when something does not feel exactly right. But you can log in from home to check and see, reset or change the points so it will wait till 8AM.

Originally Posted by NanoReefWanabe

where are you located climate wise

That's a big one. Fun project to be sure. But it takes two people six months full time to design one of these things.

And looking at my post up there.... 254 HP not 74. And I was in a hurry (like now). I got confused, thinking salt/fresh. Only one ozone gen for salt, four for fresh.

--John

[NanoReefWanabe]

i was only thinking rough estimates...for a school project like this i cannot imagine they are after absolute values, as you said it would take a full team of people six or more months to design something like this...that said the architect would say "this is the building...you engineers make the HVAC, electrical plumbing and other BS work and fit in it" engineers would hand back the drawing and say "we need more room here, lots more room here, bulkheads here and here, blah blah..." and aback and forth they would go to make it all work...for the scope of his project i assume they are after foresight and overall design, and how well it could work with all the engineers, public and employees..at least that is how all my school projects were graded, and since you are likely only given about 3 weeks to complete said project...it is impossible to go into full depth and detail...if this is a thesis project (which obviously wouldnt be assigned) then i could see extensive detail and thought put into the plans...

that said once he has a list of the basic elements necessary to operate an aquarium...IE skimmer, filter, heater/ chiller, controller, pumps etc...he could simply google commercial grade skimmer, figure out how many gallons they are rated for and add an extra one just incase/ backup if one goes down and likewise for the heat and circulation...from there if he wants absolutes it would be fairly easy to to take the manufacturers numbers and extrapolate what would be required for equipment and space

[jazzman7838]

Tanks this size do not need to be heated. If they are indoors where humans are comfortable they will need to be chilled. The most effective way to do this is with a chiller located remotely that can shed heat on an outdoor cooling tower, with an insulated cooling loop running through a titanium plate heat exchanger.

Lights will be a big energy draw if it's a coral or plant exhibit, consider several 1000W MHs. Shark and fish only tanks can be run with some of the larger LEDs.

RK2 skimmers suck hard but they are really the only option for big stuff, and since it's all hypothetical anyway, whatever. You'd want to run the tank volume through them every 30 minutes or so.

Water gets pushed around with large pumps obviously, Fybroc is one manufacturer that can supply them in the 5-50 HP range you'd need. You'd want to put VFDs and thus 3 phase power on all of them.

High pressure sand filters are pretty straightforward and there is lots of info out there for different sizes and energy needs. They should turn over the entire tank volume at least 2x per hour.

Ozone is not really a big energy draw but it's necessary for big tanks like this to keep the water crystal clear because you have long view paths.

Large systems like this are generally monitored and controlled from a central station that can track temp, ORP, pH, salinity, water level, etc and alert and text people (always at 3am, always) when something gets out of whack.

I think that's about it. Obviously HVAC should be carefully considered and oversized. CO2 should be checked and kept low anywhere the tank has access to atmosphere. One consequence of really large tanks (large volume, relatively low surface area) is that they do not shed CO2 as effectively as a small tank and low pH can become a problem. Keeping the atmosphere surrounding the tank low in CO2, especially with lots of exhaling visitors around, can be a real challenge.

Hope this helps.

[wolfblue]

Originally Posted by jazzman7838

RK2 skimmers.....run the tank volume through them every 30 minutes or so.

You might try for 30 minutes. But the engineering firm will tell your institutions design group that 60 will be good enough. After that when they decide they want a certain tile floor, you get bumped back to 90. And then after that they will shrink life support again, and say now its a light load system. Animal staff will say "we understand". Two years later that will say "but Shedd(or wherever) has X animals in X gallons". You will explain, and they will dump more fish in anyway. I have a 52K gallon one here with 12-15k filtration at 300 minutes turnover. And there is nothing (much ) wrong with RK2.

Originally Posted by jazzman7838

VFDs and thus 3 phase power

Freq drives are great for soft start/stop. But your going to run the motors wide open because you want the turnover.

Originally Posted by jazzman7838

Ozone is not really a big energy draw but it's necessary for big tanks like this to keep the water crystal clear because you have long view paths.

I have a friend with a biggie, 30' deep and 100' sight lines. They had to adjust the ozone because of clarity complaints. The water was too clear, it looked like the fish were floating in mid air. I love O3.

Originally Posted by jazzman7838

Large systems like this are generally monitored and controlled from a central station.

Mine is customized off the shelf, building management software. Each station has a local controller, and the overall system is on a server in the server room. There are 200 people here, only two can change a HVAC setting. I'm one because of all the aquarium integration, and that's why there are only two.

Originally Posted by jazzman7838

CO2....low pH.......

Big degas towers and turnover. The sand filters have all the bacteria we need, if we even want bio filters. So the trickle filters are for degas. And they are very important time gainers if you get a suction leak. N2 kills as low as 105%. So where there are animals exchanging gases under water there are giant trickle filters.

Jazz, you already know all that. Still fun to talk about.

--John

Bonus question. Anybody know.... Fybroc Mermaid?

[jazzman7838]

Originally Posted by wolfblue

You might try for 30 minutes. But the engineering firm will tell your institutions design group that 60 will be good enough. After that when they decide they want a certain tile floor, you get bumped back to 90. And then after that they will shrink life support again, and say now its a light load system. Animal staff will say "we understand". Two years later that will say "but Shedd(or wherever) has X animals in X gallons". You will explain, and they will dump more fish in anyway. I have a 52K gallon one here with 12-15k filtration at 300 minutes turnover. And there is nothing (much ) wrong with RK2.



Freq drives are great for soft start/stop. But your going to run the motors wide open because you want the turnover.

I have a friend with a biggie, 30' deep and 100' sight lines. They had to adjust the ozone because of clarity complaints. The water was too clear, it looked like the fish were floating in mid air. I love O3.




Mine is customized off the shelf, building management software. Each station has a local controller, and the overall system is on a server in the server room. There are 200 people here, only two can change a HVAC setting. I'm one because of all the aquarium integration, and that's why there are only two.





Big degas towers and turnover. The sand filters have all the bacteria we need, if we even want bio filters. So the trickle filters are for degas. And they are very important time gainers if you get a suction leak. N2 kills as low as 105%. So where there are animals exchanging gases under water there are giant trickle filters.

Jazz, you already know all that. Still fun to talk about.

--John

Bonus question. Anybody know.... Fybroc Mermaid?

Hi John! I'm guessing we have shaken hands at an AALSO conference or two. It is so fun to talk shop like this, sorry to the OP for going off the rails a bit!

I'm thinking about all this stuff in the context of really big reef systems instead of fish only systems. On a big shark tank I completely agree with everything! I know the paradigm is to use degas towers and sand filters on large tanks, but in my ideal big reef setup the sand filters are sterilized with tap water every backwash to avoid becoming biological filters and degas towers are eliminated too. They both essentially act like bioballs and I'd rather have the biological filter on the rockwork. I think the amount of ozone we apply to a reef tank, just to keep the water clear, really doesn't necessitate a degas tower either. It's such a small amount and has such a short half life in the water. Yes, I totally realize this is anathema to standard public aquarium protocols!

We will have to agree to disagree on RK2s...I think they suck! The pumps that come standard are way undersized IMO. The RK600s are what, like 12 feet tall, but the really thick shaving cream density bubble head is only at the top 18" of the body! Instead of two 1.5HP pumps running through two 1.5" venturis it should be more like two 5HP pumps running through four 2" injectors as a bare minimum IMO. Ah, wishful thinking...

[wolfblue]

Originally Posted by jazzman7838

Hi John! I'm guessing we have shaken hands at an AALSO conference or two.

Yep..I knew you were one of us!

And we actually do freshwater backwash here. Saves salt and gives a 5-10% water changer per week with the volume of the sand tanks that goes to sanitary. And of course it keeps the bacteria beat back.

And I must say your right about the venturi pumps. I like the frac's to be a frothy tiny bubble nightmare. I guess RK2 doesn't see it that way. And its hard for us to get money to change the way a manufacturer sends something out. They made it, they must know what they are doing... right?