need help, STN on stylo, acros not growing

Ink · 02/02/2014, 02:15 PM

My 120 gal tank is 4 years old. 70kg LR. Mainly SPS, without any great problem till some months ago, when I decided growth was too slow, some acros didn't grow at all and slowly some colonies were starving, I guess due to too low nutrients (PO4 0,00 and NO3 0 constantly for the 2 previous years).

Here You can see how it was my tank before:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/

So I began to give much more food to fish and corals and left my skimmer without cup for 10 days; I progressively raised my fixture (ATI 10x54 with 10h full light) from 10cm above the tank to 25cm.
Growth on all corals stopped quite suddenly and tissues darkened visibly, while PO4 were only 0,01 and NO3 just detectable after 3 weeks of heavy feeding.
Seriatopora, pocillopora and stylopora began STN from base. I performed 4 x 25% water change on alternate days with royal nature salt (RO/DI water with 0,00 conductivity) and some other 10% WC.
I then changed to a smaller skimmer mounting the cup (from BK supermarine 200 to ultrareef 160, an italian skimmer with sicce PSK pump). I continued heavy feeding.

After 1 months, seriatoporas were nearly completely gone. Stylo had some STN at the base and on one colony some spots of STN on tips.

I progressively reduced light duration to 6h full light and 12h with only 2 blue+ tubes.
Kh and Ca have always remained steady to 8,5 and 430 (adjusting Ca-Rx).
Salinity always 35psu (calibrated refractometer). I started using limewater (3 liter per day with dosing pump).

After about 2 months I've lost all seriatoporas and stylo have yet very slow STN at the base and some spots on tips of one colony. Milka Stylo is instead doing fine, with some growth. Most of acros are without growth.
NO3 are now 2,5ppm and PO4 0,05ppm. I'm continuing feeding fish only with frozen food. Cyano covering most of LR in the beginning, have nearly completely disappeared.

I thought it was caused by unbalance and need some time to gain back stability, but I can't see any improvements yet and it seems to me it has passed too much time now... I really don't know what to do. Maybe I only need to wait...

Thanks.

Luca

Froggy · 02/02/2014, 02:58 PM

I recently had an issue that began with STN at the coral base, lost one SPS, and most began to suffer. Come to find out my tank has been operating at 70 degrees F for who knows how long. Your parameters all look good but do not see temp listed. Do you know the water temp? It seems to be often overlooked. My heater was not keeping up with the cold michigan winter with the tank in the basement and maintained 70 degrees. My corals are on the mend in 78 degree F water now after adding 2 new water heaters.
Joe

Ink · 02/02/2014, 04:27 PM

Thanks Froggy,
I already double checked it, it's correct. 23,5°C - 24,5°C, as all other winters.

Except for the skimmer, I didn't change any pump or technical device, so I think I can exclude a pollution due to copper or other metal. Problems started before skimmer change BTW.

In 15 years of reef tanks, I never experienced a so long problem not being able to solve it, also discussing with various experienced friends...

I have the "sensation" it is link to food, like if it could cause ammonia peaks (that i never measured and don't know if it could be detected) that could harms corals.

Another thing I omitted is that there is some residue of sugar size sand under the rocks. I removed the great part 2 years ago. I don't know if it could make some problem, but it was still there before all started. I have a cryptocentrus moving it a bit, raising some detritus continuosly, but always had it from tank start.

Bigcefa · 02/02/2014, 08:47 PM

Seems you made a lot of changes , sometime that's not the best thing , try one thing at a time and do it slowly

Ink · 02/03/2014, 01:18 AM

Maybe, but most of all I did was due to increase nutrients: light reduction, more food, smaller skimmer.

biggles · 02/03/2014, 02:52 AM

Sorry to hear of your troubles mate, you have a beautiful collection of corals.
The idea of increasing the nutrition in the water that's available to your corals is a good one particularly if you were seeing pale unsaturated colors and or STN. From my experience with only wild acros that are used to very pristine water i can assure that a sudden rise in nitrates and phosphates can quickly result in STN and browning/darkening - overall drab look to the corals. I did the same thing recently to a tank full of corals already stressed by a salinity error.
I don't think removing or downsizing the skimmer was a good move as you really want to feed heavy and remove quickly in a balancing act that takes your biofiltration months to adapt to. I'm certain that your nitrates and phos spiked much higher than the readings currently are with the method you employed and that did the damage to your already stressed corals.
Keeping your water free of measureable nitrates and phos for years is akin to keeping only wild sourced acros as i do really so you may have just killed them with kindness if you know what i mean.
I think you might have done the right thing but in the wrong manner and way too quickly.

Just an idea to consider, i know how frustrating it is to watch things go bad and not be sure what is causing it. Nine times out of ten it's the thing you changed and many times it's missed because on face value it seems okay. I hope you get to the bottom of things soon my friend.

Ink · 02/03/2014, 10:31 AM

Thank Biggles.

Another data. As I said, my tank started with 1-2" of sugar size sand. I then removed the great part of that 2 years ago. I did that because nitrites were always detectable. After that action, nitrites remained the same, despite zero NO3 and PO4. I then quitted measuring nitrites and care of them.

Under the rocks, that are layed on bottom glass without spacing, sand has become a hard block. I've thought that could be my source of nitrites. Heavy feeding could have increased this effect harming corals. Today infact nitrites are still detectable.
My sensation is that feeding increase harm to corals. I experienced exactly that when I feed more, STN become more evident. Maybe feeding causes a spike in NH3-NO2.

So today I've removed great part of the remaining sand under the rocks (where I can reach with a hard tube) and with a flexible fine hard line (the one it is used to pull electrical lines in the wall) I've descaled cemented sand under the rocks, creating some tunnels and I hope with time water flow will do the rest.

Being NH4 less toxic than NH3 and higher pH worsen this problem, I also removed limewater supply, to keep a lower ph.
In the next time we'll see if there will be some improvement.

02/02/2014, 02:15 PM	#1
Ink Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Milano, Italy Posts: 280	need help, STN on stylo, acros not growing My 120 gal tank is 4 years old. 70kg LR. Mainly SPS, without any great problem till some months ago, when I decided growth was too slow, some acros didn't grow at all and slowly some colonies were starving, I guess due to too low nutrients (PO4 0,00 and NO3 0 constantly for the 2 previous years). Here You can see how it was my tank before: http://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/ So I began to give much more food to fish and corals and left my skimmer without cup for 10 days; I progressively raised my fixture (ATI 10x54 with 10h full light) from 10cm above the tank to 25cm. Growth on all corals stopped quite suddenly and tissues darkened visibly, while PO4 were only 0,01 and NO3 just detectable after 3 weeks of heavy feeding. Seriatopora, pocillopora and stylopora began STN from base. I performed 4 x 25% water change on alternate days with royal nature salt (RO/DI water with 0,00 conductivity) and some other 10% WC. I then changed to a smaller skimmer mounting the cup (from BK supermarine 200 to ultrareef 160, an italian skimmer with sicce PSK pump). I continued heavy feeding. After 1 months, seriatoporas were nearly completely gone. Stylo had some STN at the base and on one colony some spots of STN on tips. I progressively reduced light duration to 6h full light and 12h with only 2 blue+ tubes. Kh and Ca have always remained steady to 8,5 and 430 (adjusting Ca-Rx). Salinity always 35psu (calibrated refractometer). I started using limewater (3 liter per day with dosing pump). After about 2 months I've lost all seriatoporas and stylo have yet very slow STN at the base and some spots on tips of one colony. Milka Stylo is instead doing fine, with some growth. Most of acros are without growth. NO3 are now 2,5ppm and PO4 0,05ppm. I'm continuing feeding fish only with frozen food. Cyano covering most of LR in the beginning, have nearly completely disappeared. I thought it was caused by unbalance and need some time to gain back stability, but I can't see any improvements yet and it seems to me it has passed too much time now... I really don't know what to do. Maybe I only need to wait... Thanks. Luca

02/02/2014, 02:58 PM	#2
Froggy Reef "Hobbyist"...right!? Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canton, MI Posts: 2,160	I recently had an issue that began with STN at the coral base, lost one SPS, and most began to suffer. Come to find out my tank has been operating at 70 degrees F for who knows how long. Your parameters all look good but do not see temp listed. Do you know the water temp? It seems to be often overlooked. My heater was not keeping up with the cold michigan winter with the tank in the basement and maintained 70 degrees. My corals are on the mend in 78 degree F water now after adding 2 new water heaters. Joe __________________ Hello, my name is Joe and I am a reef addict. ......Hi Joe.......... Current Tank Info: 120 gallon mixed reef with TBS live rock, 8 X 54 watt TEK T5's, Euroreef RS250 skimmer

02/02/2014, 04:27 PM	#3
Ink Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Milano, Italy Posts: 280	Thanks Froggy, I already double checked it, it's correct. 23,5°C - 24,5°C, as all other winters. Except for the skimmer, I didn't change any pump or technical device, so I think I can exclude a pollution due to copper or other metal. Problems started before skimmer change BTW. In 15 years of reef tanks, I never experienced a so long problem not being able to solve it, also discussing with various experienced friends... I have the "sensation" it is link to food, like if it could cause ammonia peaks (that i never measured and don't know if it could be detected) that could harms corals. Another thing I omitted is that there is some residue of sugar size sand under the rocks. I removed the great part 2 years ago. I don't know if it could make some problem, but it was still there before all started. I have a cryptocentrus moving it a bit, raising some detritus continuosly, but always had it from tank start.

02/02/2014, 08:47 PM	#4
Bigcefa Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 843	Seems you made a lot of changes , sometime that's not the best thing , try one thing at a time and do it slowly

02/03/2014, 01:18 AM	#5
Ink Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Milano, Italy Posts: 280	Maybe, but most of all I did was due to increase nutrients: light reduction, more food, smaller skimmer.

02/03/2014, 02:52 AM	#6
biggles Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Australia Posts: 3,907	Sorry to hear of your troubles mate, you have a beautiful collection of corals. The idea of increasing the nutrition in the water that's available to your corals is a good one particularly if you were seeing pale unsaturated colors and or STN. From my experience with only wild acros that are used to very pristine water i can assure that a sudden rise in nitrates and phosphates can quickly result in STN and browning/darkening - overall drab look to the corals. I did the same thing recently to a tank full of corals already stressed by a salinity error. I don't think removing or downsizing the skimmer was a good move as you really want to feed heavy and remove quickly in a balancing act that takes your biofiltration months to adapt to. I'm certain that your nitrates and phos spiked much higher than the readings currently are with the method you employed and that did the damage to your already stressed corals. Keeping your water free of measureable nitrates and phos for years is akin to keeping only wild sourced acros as i do really so you may have just killed them with kindness if you know what i mean. I think you might have done the right thing but in the wrong manner and way too quickly. Just an idea to consider, i know how frustrating it is to watch things go bad and not be sure what is causing it. Nine times out of ten it's the thing you changed and many times it's missed because on face value it seems okay. I hope you get to the bottom of things soon my friend.

02/03/2014, 10:31 AM	#7
Ink Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Milano, Italy Posts: 280	Thank Biggles. Another data. As I said, my tank started with 1-2" of sugar size sand. I then removed the great part of that 2 years ago. I did that because nitrites were always detectable. After that action, nitrites remained the same, despite zero NO3 and PO4. I then quitted measuring nitrites and care of them. Under the rocks, that are layed on bottom glass without spacing, sand has become a hard block. I've thought that could be my source of nitrites. Heavy feeding could have increased this effect harming corals. Today infact nitrites are still detectable. My sensation is that feeding increase harm to corals. I experienced exactly that when I feed more, STN become more evident. Maybe feeding causes a spike in NH3-NO2. So today I've removed great part of the remaining sand under the rocks (where I can reach with a hard tube) and with a flexible fine hard line (the one it is used to pull electrical lines in the wall) I've descaled cemented sand under the rocks, creating some tunnels and I hope with time water flow will do the rest. Being NH4 less toxic than NH3 and higher pH worsen this problem, I also removed limewater supply, to keep a lower ph. In the next time we'll see if there will be some improvement.