Waterline in sump fluctuations!

sEaLiFe4LiFe · 05/10/2014, 11:19 AM

Hey guys just setup up my 150g and it's been running over week now. My question is about the sump waterline in the 3rd chamber...

1st chamber is filter socks, 2nd is refrugium with only miracle mud for now (will add mangroves and chaeto), 3rd is return pump and skimmer (not installed yet) waiting for cycling of the tank..

The waterline in the 3rd chamber always seems to drop and I have add water. Is that because the return is pushing more water out than coming in? Do I tone the return down with gate valve? There are no leaks so that is my thought any insight?

I'm running 1 1/4" piping for the inlets with a couple of 90s on each. I figured 1200gph for the inlet minus a few 90s equal 1000gph. The return is 1800gph.

Dapg8gt · 05/10/2014, 11:21 AM

That's evaporation. That chamber is where your auto top off goes. You should be monitoring salinity and adding fresh water to get it back to the original mark. Totally normal and you should not be adding salt water if your positive you have no leaks.

sEaLiFe4LiFe · 05/10/2014, 12:05 PM

I understand evaporation but I add about 2-3G every 2nd or 3rd day. That's seems a little excessive for evaporation don't you think? That's why I think if the return gph is more than the inlet it would cause that no?

Dapg8gt · 05/10/2014, 12:17 PM

Not really if your salinity is staying stable.

Evaporation varies for a lot of reasons weather and the larger the volume of water exposed to the air the more evaporation your going to get.

One way to see if it's your return pump would be to monitor the water line in your tank. Mark it and see if it's getting higher. Or looking at the way your overflows are running by the amount of water in them. If your pushing more water than your overflows can handle that could cause it.. But honestly I evaporate a gallon a day minimum on a 105g and I don't live where it's hot or dry. I go through about 10g a week fwiw.

Also if your return chamber is too small it's going to take less evap to notice it more if that makes sense.

sEaLiFe4LiFe · 05/10/2014, 01:59 PM

That makes sense I'll check everything and monitor it. I appreciate the help!

ken6217 · 05/10/2014, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sEaLiFe4LiFe

I understand evaporation but I add about 2-3G every 2nd or 3rd day. That's seems a little excessive for evaporation don't you think? That's why I think if the return gph is more than the inlet it would cause that no?

That's not a lot of evaporation. Especially on 150g tank. I evaporate that much on my 93g.
Ken

smoothdog · 05/10/2014, 03:04 PM

Yep, that's normal evaporation. You will likely have issues with your skimmer too if you put it in the 3rd chamber. The water level needs to stay constant for most internal skimmers to work at peak efficiency.

hkgar · 05/10/2014, 03:09 PM

+1 on what smoothdog said. The return chamber is NOT the place for the skimmer. I have 4 chambers and mine is in #2. If it is an external skimmer you could putit in your third chamber.

ca1ore · 05/10/2014, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sEaLiFe4LiFe

I understand evaporation but I add about 2-3G every 2nd or 3rd day. That's seems a little excessive for evaporation don't you think? That's why I think if the return gph is more than the inlet it would cause that no?

Didn't make note of where you live, but in dry conditions, 2-3 gallons per day of evaporation is not unusual (just keep an eye on salinity levels). Has nothing to do with how much you're pumping - water level in the last section of the sump will equilibrate regardless (unless you are pumping more than your drains can handle, but then the tank overflows or the pump runs dry).

sEaLiFe4LiFe · 05/10/2014, 05:51 PM

I'm in WPB FL where it can get really hot but as to my house the wife likes to keep it at 74 deg F. Don't know how much that would affect the tank but I need a thermometer for it as well. Also I should look into some of the DIY ATOs. I have a HOB skimmer reef octopus that is on my 75g now. Would I be able to use that? The sump is an aqueon 4.

Indymann99 · 05/11/2014, 07:00 AM

If you are running the AC all the time your evap can easily be 1-2g PER DAY. You should look into an ATO system to help regulate SG (water evaporates salt does not - so your SG goes UP).

Skimmer in the return section is sub-optimal in 2 ways.
1. fluctuating water level (due to the evap listed above), even with ATO the level will still rise and fall.
2. microbubbles. the skimmer will produce them and your return pump will send them to the DT.

If you can move the skimmer to the 1st chamber with the socks that would be best... if no room in that chamber, ditch the fuge and put the skimmer in that section.

my sump as an example (don't know if its similar to yours).
This is back when I was running a JBJ ATO (worked fine but I now have APEX)
ATO res is on the left and holds 3 days of top off water. The JBJ ATO pumps water from the res to the return section where the evap lowers the water level.

mfinn · 05/11/2014, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sEaLiFe4LiFe

I'm in WPB FL where it can get really hot but as to my house the wife likes to keep it at 74 deg F. Don't know how much that would affect the tank but I need a thermometer for it as well. Also I should look into some of the DIY ATOs. I have a HOB skimmer reef octopus that is on my 75g now. Would I be able to use that? The sump is an aqueon 4.

A auto top off unit is pretty important, so I would suggest getting a good one.

sEaLiFe4LiFe · 05/11/2014, 06:23 PM

I can't switch chambers bc there's no room. I ordered an ato system for my setup since it's vital for overall success of my tank and skimmer. I appreciate the help guys!!

mfinn · 05/13/2014, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sEaLiFe4LiFe

I can't switch chambers bc there's no room. I ordered an ato system for my setup since it's vital for overall success of my tank and skimmer. I appreciate the help guys!!

I'd look into switching something around.
The skimmer needs a steady water level.
Many ATO's can vary up to a 1/2" of difference and that could spell trouble for trying to maintain a steady water level.

Dapg8gt · 05/13/2014, 09:09 AM

I think your best bet would be a tunze Ozmolator.. They have a very small deviance from the water level and imo are the Kings when it come to Ato.

You really should do all you can to move your skimmer though it's not a good idea to use that chamber. First or middle is the best.. If your current sump won't do it I personally would either make/buy a new sump or find a skimmer that fits.

hkgar · 05/13/2014, 12:36 PM

3r option would be an external skimmer. I have an external, because I do not have the height needed for a skimmer for my tank.

Exernal work great but you need to watch for over foaming.

sEaLiFe4LiFe · 05/15/2014, 01:47 PM

I have a HOB skimmer on hand and was wondering if that could work just as long as I made the adjustments on the inlets. I've heard good and bad with that style setup. Only way to find out is to try it or buy a in sump skimmer.

05/10/2014, 11:19 AM	#1
sEaLiFe4LiFe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Lake Worth, FL Posts: 154	Waterline in sump fluctuations! Hey guys just setup up my 150g and it's been running over week now. My question is about the sump waterline in the 3rd chamber... 1st chamber is filter socks, 2nd is refrugium with only miracle mud for now (will add mangroves and chaeto), 3rd is return pump and skimmer (not installed yet) waiting for cycling of the tank.. The waterline in the 3rd chamber always seems to drop and I have add water. Is that because the return is pushing more water out than coming in? Do I tone the return down with gate valve? There are no leaks so that is my thought any insight? I'm running 1 1/4" piping for the inlets with a couple of 90s on each. I figured 1200gph for the inlet minus a few 90s equal 1000gph. The return is 1800gph.

05/10/2014, 12:17 PM	#4
Dapg8gt Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Pacifica Posts: 3,741	Not really if your salinity is staying stable. Evaporation varies for a lot of reasons weather and the larger the volume of water exposed to the air the more evaporation your going to get. One way to see if it's your return pump would be to monitor the water line in your tank. Mark it and see if it's getting higher. Or looking at the way your overflows are running by the amount of water in them. If your pushing more water than your overflows can handle that could cause it.. But honestly I evaporate a gallon a day minimum on a 105g and I don't live where it's hot or dry. I go through about 10g a week fwiw. Also if your return chamber is too small it's going to take less evap to notice it more if that makes sense. __________________ 15 years in the hobby yet still learning every day. 280g radium lit sps flat living in my garage rent free. Current Tank Info: 105g SPS dominant euro braced powered by 4 ecotech pumps and lit by an ATI powermodule controlled by a reef angel =).

05/10/2014, 03:04 PM	#7
smoothdog Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: St. Charles, MO Posts: 4,916	Yep, that's normal evaporation. You will likely have issues with your skimmer too if you put it in the 3rd chamber. The water level needs to stay constant for most internal skimmers to work at peak efficiency. __________________ Everything's better with Bacon! Current Tank Info: 150DD SPS dominant mixed reef. 100g sump/fuge, 6'x28"x12" frag tank, Diablo xs200 skimmer, Apex controller, Custom GEO 824 calcium reactor, panworld 200PS return pump. Lumenmax Elite reflector with Radium 250HQI bulb and 3 AI 32 HDs.

05/10/2014, 03:09 PM	#8
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	+1 on what smoothdog said. The return chamber is NOT the place for the skimmer. I have 4 chambers and mine is in #2. If it is an external skimmer you could putit in your third chamber. __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

05/11/2014, 07:00 AM	#11
Indymann99 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,447	If you are running the AC all the time your evap can easily be 1-2g PER DAY. You should look into an ATO system to help regulate SG (water evaporates salt does not - so your SG goes UP). Skimmer in the return section is sub-optimal in 2 ways. 1. fluctuating water level (due to the evap listed above), even with ATO the level will still rise and fall. 2. microbubbles. the skimmer will produce them and your return pump will send them to the DT. If you can move the skimmer to the 1st chamber with the socks that would be best... if no room in that chamber, ditch the fuge and put the skimmer in that section. my sump as an example (don't know if its similar to yours). This is back when I was running a JBJ ATO (worked fine but I now have APEX) ATO res is on the left and holds 3 days of top off water. The JBJ ATO pumps water from the res to the return section where the evap lowers the water level. __________________ 120g DT 100lbs LR / 200 lbs LS, 45g fuge, VectraM1 Return, Herbie drain, 4x RW-8, 2x AI Hydra 26 w AWM, ASM G2, Apex controller, Apex BoB w floats ATO

05/10/2014, 11:21 AM	#2
Dapg8gt Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Pacifica Posts: 3,741	That's evaporation. That chamber is where your auto top off goes. You should be monitoring salinity and adding fresh water to get it back to the original mark. Totally normal and you should not be adding salt water if your positive you have no leaks. __________________ 15 years in the hobby yet still learning every day. 280g radium lit sps flat living in my garage rent free. Current Tank Info: 105g SPS dominant euro braced powered by 4 ecotech pumps and lit by an ATI powermodule controlled by a reef angel =).

05/10/2014, 12:05 PM	#3
sEaLiFe4LiFe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Lake Worth, FL Posts: 154	I understand evaporation but I add about 2-3G every 2nd or 3rd day. That's seems a little excessive for evaporation don't you think? That's why I think if the return gph is more than the inlet it would cause that no?

05/10/2014, 01:59 PM	#5
sEaLiFe4LiFe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Lake Worth, FL Posts: 154	That makes sense I'll check everything and monitor it. I appreciate the help!

05/10/2014, 05:51 PM	#10
sEaLiFe4LiFe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Lake Worth, FL Posts: 154	I'm in WPB FL where it can get really hot but as to my house the wife likes to keep it at 74 deg F. Don't know how much that would affect the tank but I need a thermometer for it as well. Also I should look into some of the DIY ATOs. I have a HOB skimmer reef octopus that is on my 75g now. Would I be able to use that? The sump is an aqueon 4.

05/11/2014, 06:23 PM	#13
sEaLiFe4LiFe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Lake Worth, FL Posts: 154	I can't switch chambers bc there's no room. I ordered an ato system for my setup since it's vital for overall success of my tank and skimmer. I appreciate the help guys!!

05/13/2014, 09:09 AM	#15
Dapg8gt Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Pacifica Posts: 3,741	I think your best bet would be a tunze Ozmolator.. They have a very small deviance from the water level and imo are the Kings when it come to Ato. You really should do all you can to move your skimmer though it's not a good idea to use that chamber. First or middle is the best.. If your current sump won't do it I personally would either make/buy a new sump or find a skimmer that fits. __________________ 15 years in the hobby yet still learning every day. 280g radium lit sps flat living in my garage rent free. Current Tank Info: 105g SPS dominant euro braced powered by 4 ecotech pumps and lit by an ATI powermodule controlled by a reef angel =).

05/13/2014, 12:36 PM	#16
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	3r option would be an external skimmer. I have an external, because I do not have the height needed for a skimmer for my tank. Exernal work great but you need to watch for over foaming. __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

05/15/2014, 01:47 PM	#17
sEaLiFe4LiFe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Lake Worth, FL Posts: 154	I have a HOB skimmer on hand and was wondering if that could work just as long as I made the adjustments on the inlets. I've heard good and bad with that style setup. Only way to find out is to try it or buy a in sump skimmer.