Amonia, nitrite and nitrate levels while cycling

[JingoFresh]

I am new to the hobby, with a new tank that I was cyling for about 1 month with cured live rock.

I noticed during this time that my amonia, nitrite and nitrate levels were all 0.

I did a complete water change as the tank was setup with tap water, and I replaced it with RO/DI water.

Still, a month later, my levels for amonia, nitrates and nitrites are 0.

Salinity is 1.24 and PH stays at 8.4

My understanding is that even with no inhabitants in the tank, the bacteria should be producing waste and amonia should start to increase and then decrease as the nitrogen cycle starts, yet this doesn't seem to be the case.

It is also my understanding that doing a compelte water change while cycling does not affect the liverock/sand too much, as the bacteria lives in the rock and sand, not the water.

Is there a way to tell if my liverock is live?

Is it a problem that my tank is at 0 for amonia, nitrites and nitrates 2 months into the cycling process?

[Sugar Magnolia]

If you used fully cured live rock it is possible to see little to no cycle. I'd suggest ghost feeding the tank for a week or so and testing to see where you are.

[JingoFresh]

By ghost feeding you just mean feeding as though the tank had inhabitants?

Is there a way to test if the liverock has bacteria or not? To know if I was scammed or maybe killed it?

[SloppyJ]

You can add ammonia to the tank and see how quickly it will convert to nitrate. This will let you know what's happening.

You can ghost feed like stated above and just keep testing.

[JingoFresh]

OK, thank you.

I would add amonia by ghost feeding, right?

I may add a fresh frozen shrimp as a test then?

[SloppyJ]

There are many ways to do this. You can ghost feed, add the table shrimp or even add pure ammonia to the tank.

[JingoFresh]

Adding a shrimp seems easiest since I can just drop it in and remove it later.

Where would I buy pure amonia and how much would you mix in?

Thank you again.

[thegrun]

You can get pure ammonia at most hardware stores. Use pure ammonia without surfactants. To be sure the ammonia does not contain surfactants shake the bottle and if it bubbles up like dish soap it has surfactants in it, pure ammonia will not have bubbles. To raise 100 gallons of water from 0 to 3 ppm ammonia you would need to add 1.2grams (12 ml) of standard 10% pure ammonia.

[JingoFresh]

Thanks, I will see what happens!

[JingoFresh]

I just wanted to check with the folks here, but is this product pure amonia and useful for testing my bacteria?

http://www.amazon.com/DrTims-Aquatic...ywords=ammonia

[intyme]

You prob won't have a cycle

[JingoFresh]

Why not?

[SloppyJ]

Yes, that product will work but you could go to your local grocery store and pick it up as well.

[Stolireef]

Originally Posted by JingoFresh

Why not?

From reading your OP, it looks like you started with cured live rock. By definition, this rock should have a very healthy bacterial population. Assuming you didn't add any nutrients to the tank, that population actually is probably hungry and shrinking.

Easiest way to figure this out is to get a nice juicy table shrimp (no cocktail sauce please) and toss it into the tank. You may not even see ammonia but you will likely see a small nitrite spike as the shrimp decays. Unfortunately, you'll probably want to test daily for this. Once that nitrite spike is over, you should see a small bump in nitrates (although those tests are very difficult to read IMO). You can do the same thing with pure ammonia for a more precise approach.

That will tell you your initial cycle is done. Note that if you don't see a spike in anything for a week or two, it also means your cycle is done. Then, add a fish and keep an eye on things for a few weeks.

[JingoFresh]

Hmm, OK thanks.

This is my first tank and I've been learning as I go along. No one told me I should be feeding the bacteria as part of my cycle

Although it kind of seems like common sense in retrospect.

So, if it was cured live rock and they have been 2 months without being fed....how bad is that? Have I lost a majority of the bacteria?

I'd also like someone to confirm my understanding of the cycle is correct if that's OK.

Basically my understanding is that amonia should spike and then go down as it gets converted into nitrates, which then in turn become nitrites, which are bad.

Ammonia and nitrate levels should always be low, varying but generally under 5ppm. Nitrites should be dealt with by regular water changes. Does this sound about right?

[SloppyJ]

You have nitrites and nitrates mixed up.

It goes

Ammonia (NH3) > Nitrites (NO2) > Nitrates (NO3).

Ammonia should always be zero. You shouldn't show any detectable nitrites. The conversion to nitrate is a quick process so you should only be getting nitrates showing on your test.

This is why we can test our tanks while cycling and figure out how far along it is.

[JingoFresh]

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

You have nitrites and nitrates mixed up.

It goes

Ammonia (NH3) > Nitrites (NO2) > Nitrates (NO3).

Ammonia should always be zero. You shouldn't show any detectable nitrites. The conversion to nitrate is a quick process so you should only be getting nitrates showing on your test.

This is why we can test our tanks while cycling and figure out how far along it is.

I thought I had nitrites and nitrates mixed up.

So even with a shrimp in the tank or waste being produced, if the tank is cycled amonia and nitries should be 0? And the way to deal with nitrates is water changes, correct?

How much would cured live rock be affected by not being fed for two months?

Thanks for your help!

[JingoFresh]

So I'm not sure what is going on with the levels in my tank.

I've been addmin ammonia to try and keep it constant.

Last night nitrites were high and ammonia seemed to spike, higher than what I had put it in.

This morning nitrites are still there but noticeably lower, with ammonia only being a little bit lower.

Should I add more ammonia to keep it at a constant level, or wait and see what happens with nitrites and ammonia levels?

[rale2001]

no leave it... it should cycle though... do you know how much you put in? what kind of test are you using?

[JingoFresh]

I put it in at 4ppm originally....although it's very hard to tell with my API tesk kit what shade of green it is to tell what level it is at now.

I only know it is lighter, can't say by how much it went down.

So I don't have to worry about nitrites dropping with ammonia still being strong?

[SloppyJ]

The nitrites are dropping because they are being converted to nitrates. Not sure why the ammonia went up though.

[Stolireef]

Stop testing for a week. You have plenty of everything in your tank to complete your cycle. My bet is that in 7 to ten days, you will see your ammonia drop to 0 and your nitrites may also be at 0. When nitrates start climbing a little, you're on your way. Slight variations in your ammonia level are very likely a testing issue (slight variations in amount of water/reagent) rather than a significant change in the levels.

This is a great time to relax with a good read through the New to the Hobby Threads. It'll keep your mind off your tank. It's kind of like Nicorette for new reef keepers.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by JingoFresh

I am new to the hobby, with a new tank that I was cyling for about 1 month with cured live rock.

I noticed during this time that my amonia, nitrite and nitrate levels were all 0.

I did a complete water change as the tank was setup with tap water, and I replaced it with RO/DI water.

Still, a month later, my levels for amonia, nitrates and nitrites are 0.

Salinity is 1.24 and PH stays at 8.4

My understanding is that even with no inhabitants in the tank, the bacteria should be producing waste and amonia should start to increase and then decrease as the nitrogen cycle starts, yet this doesn't seem to be the case.

Bacteria may accelerate the process of ammonia formation from decaying proteins but it can occur without them.



It is also my understanding that doing a complete water change while cycling does not affect the liverock/sand too much, as the bacteria lives in the rock and sand, not the water.

There are a few steps involving bacteria:
ammonia NH3/NH4 is oxidized to nitrite (NO2) by one set of bacteria;

nitrite(NO2) is oxidized to nitrate(NO3) by another;

nitrate(NO3) may be used for the N via assimilation and/or reduced anaerobically in low oxygen areas by denitrifying bacteria using the oxygen in nitrate when oxygen in the water is exhuasted. Some of the remaining N then joins up with other N to form N2 ( nitrogen gas) which bubbles out of the water.

All of these bacteria are benthic( surface dwelling). So, a water change shuldn't affect them. the may be some spores ofbreakways in the water but not of significance.

Is there a way to tell if my liverock is live?

Adding some fish food as previously suggested is one way, If it handles the ammonia produced from the food ,the ammonia oxidizing bacteria are viable. Same for the nitrite oxidizers and denitrifiers. Personally, I prefer th food mehtod over using ammonia since it includes some of the other elements the bacteria need( like phosporus, iron etc.);the ammonia only brings in nitrogen.

Is it a problem that my tank is at 0 for amonia, nitrites and nitrates 2 months into the cycling process?

No not necessarily , it suggests viable bacterial activity at the various steps or a lack of decaying matter to process.