Burnt acro tips under LED

CTaylor · 07/16/2014, 05:33 AM

Hi,
I am realizing that my LED's may be too bright (esp on full blast). I didn't know why my corals were often "melting", esp LPS. Anyhow, currently I have a nice looking acro head. The branches that are shaded have polyp extension, and look healthy. The tips, with most light exposure are bleached.

I have 65 gallon, 24" tall, about 10-12" off surface are 48 LEDs (a lot, I know). But they are dialed as far dim as possible without them going off. I have 6 420 actinic, 4 cyan, 4 BLUE, 4 Natural White, the rest are split between cool white and Royal Blues (all from Rapid LED, except the 420 nm actinics). All wager specs look good.. Ca, Alk, pH, temp, ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. phosphate. Good skimming also.

The acro is near the bottom of the tank. I originally had the lights on about 50% brighter than they are now. At that time, the acro had a good amount of strings coming off (mesenteries? from stress?) . Since I dimmed the lights, there are far less strings, but the tips are still white. The tank does not look very brightly lit now. Is the acro just recovering from the original burn? It's been about a week since i lowered the intensity to it's lowest setting.

BTW: I do have SPS xmas rock doing really well, mid tank level... elegance doing awesome about same level of tank as the acro, and torch (that had some heads originally burned --- the rest doing good now on bottom of the tank). Zooanthids are good under a "shady area".. same with star polyps.

I know it seems "obvious" the lights are too bright, but at this point the tank just looks quite dim!

Any input appreciated.

rgulrich · 07/16/2014, 07:33 AM

I've bleached a few myself and learned the hard way to slowly acclimate new purchases to high intensity LED lighting over a couple of weeks. The remainder of the inhabitants don't seem to mind a temporary dimmer period.
While it might not work for every coral, I just ramp up the lights slowly over about a week or so - that's the approach I've taken and it seems to work pretty well.
Oh, and I do have a few with bleached-out areas on them still (even though the polyps extend quite nicely)

...after six months. The rest of the same coral has colored up nicely, but the last bit...well, all corals are different, and some of them take a long time to color back up again.

swk · 07/16/2014, 10:09 AM

Do you carbon dose? If so, what's your alk?

CTaylor · 07/16/2014, 08:22 PM

8.9 dkh
The acro is getting worse. The white tips are spreading slowly down. The strings slowed down, though. The tips look like icicles on top of the remaining live (shaded) branches. I don't get it, the lights are not bright at all (to my eye). Is it one of my LEDs wavelengths (like the cyan? -- do acros and some LPS hate that wavelength?)

swk · 07/17/2014, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTaylor

8.9 dkh

The acro is getting worse. The white tips are spreading slowly down. The strings slowed down, though. The tips look like icicles on top of the remaining live (shaded) branches. I don't get it, the lights are not bright at all (to my eye). Is it one of my LEDs wavelengths (like the cyan? -- do acros and some LPS hate that wavelength?)

But do you carbon dose? Alk would be fine in all other instances but I get what you're describing if alk goes above 8 by much

NastyZ · 07/17/2014, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTaylor

8.9 dkh
The acro is getting worse. The white tips are spreading slowly down. The strings slowed down, though. The tips look like icicles on top of the remaining live (shaded) branches. I don't get it, the lights are not bright at all (to my eye). Is it one of my LEDs wavelengths (like the cyan? -- do acros and some LPS hate that wavelength?)

Big mistake with led users is the lights look dim to there eye so they don't think there getting enough par not realizing that LEDs are more directional then t5/MH so while it may look dim your probably getting a ton of light it's best you use a par meter to get an idea if you can't get your hands on a meter using percentages and going slow is the key to not burning your corals also once you burn sps it can take some time for it to recover months sometimes but if the burn tips still have PE extension leave it alone it's not going to recover over night

CTaylor · 07/17/2014, 10:22 AM

Carbon dose?
I don't know what that is. I dose Kalk. I have not yet re-set up my calcium reactor (not sure if I will).
Is my alk possibly too hight?

swk · 07/17/2014, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTaylor

Carbon dose?
I don't know what that is. I dose Kalk. I have not yet re-set up my calcium reactor (not sure if I will).
Is my alk possibly too hight?

I was wondering if you add vinegar, vodka, or bio pellets. When using any of those alk over 8.5ish can cause what you're asking about.

whosurcaddie · 07/17/2014, 01:16 PM

Move it down to the sand bed.

CTaylor · 07/17/2014, 10:46 PM

i wish you could rent a par meter :-D . Though I see one at http://www.sciencelabsupplies.com/Lu...FSdk7Aod_TcAag ...cheap!

SWK: I'm going to read up more on Vodka dosing... from what little I know my tank is low enough density in life that I don't have to worry about it right now. But that's for another thread... or my own reading :-D.
I'll move it all way to sand bed, just 4" more down.
Another acro I have became very intensely colored after many months under the LEDs. It was almost colorless (NOT bleached) after I got it.. then took 4 months or more to color up.. eventually turning very intense color. So it makes sense the actual energy from the light is much more than I can perceive. And the elegance on bottom of the tank that opens an amazing amount (it's over a year old btw) even on lowest LED level. So I am really curious about the actual numbers a par meter would say.

whosurcaddie · 07/18/2014, 09:00 AM

If you want to dose carbon I would use vinegar instead. %5 Acetate white vinegar.

swk · 07/18/2014, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whosurcaddie

If you want to dose carbon I would use vinegar instead. %5 Acetate white vinegar.

+1

That's what I use.

CTaylor · 07/18/2014, 10:37 AM

I'll look more into that sometime... As for the subject matter

.... I'm going to get a PAR sensor Apogee to add on to my dinky multimeter. So I have an idea of the light.
**I was thinking to possibly remove all the lenses from my LEDs. Because with the lenses, from the center of the LED there is a higher intensity beam. I'm sure its still there without the lens, but has to be more spread out. Sure I won't have all the light in the tank, but it might be a lot better NOT to, as far as controlling intensity and wavelength blending. Maybe this will be a new thing.. to remove all lenses? I have a feeling this could be a real solution :-/ or :-D lol

whosurcaddie · 07/18/2014, 10:52 AM

What degree optics are they?

CTaylor · 07/18/2014, 11:04 AM

60 degrees... 5 watt crees, except for the cyan and the actinics -- 3 watts.

whosurcaddie · 07/18/2014, 11:23 AM

There's your problem. 60 degree optics are very focused I would switch them out for 90* optics.

60's are for tanks deeper than 2 feet 90's would be perfect.

CTaylor · 07/18/2014, 09:29 PM

Well.. I ordered a par meter sensor to attach to my multimeter:
apogee sq-120.
I'm hoping this will give me some answers. With the lights dimmed as far as I can even with 60 optics, can it still be too bright? or did i just fry the acro at the beginning and it's on a one way course?
Im bummed that I killed a few corals for their sakes.. and also financially several hundred down drain. I don't want to keep killing them.
I guess best way to proceed is test the light levels, then get a few "cheap" pieces with lights all the way down and start over (?).
I know LEDs can be great.. But I wouldn't have switched from Halide if I knew this. The color overall with halide was better also, and the rays of light were nicer, etc. crap! Frustration. I put so much time into building my set up DIY kits. The time more than the money!

whosurcaddie · 07/19/2014, 12:48 AM

Yeah the shimmer isn't the best when you have multiple light sources. My favorite DIY setup is the Single chip multi aray LED's. With this type of setup you have the majority of your light coming from a single point like a metal halide. It's what the Kessil uses but you can build your own and the chips aren't that expensive.

50 watts in a single chip.

Its going to take time you don't have any tissue loss and it didn't dump all of its zooxanthellae so it will be fine. First thing, I would remove the optics. Next thing I would do is get some 90* degree optics. given the proper environment it will recover the coral's not dead just stressed. Give it some time.

CTaylor · 07/19/2014, 10:06 AM

looks interesting. But I already have my set up. with all my LEDs. I don't want to get the next best thing every year and spill several hundred each time. Next year there will be something just as greater than the chip there.
**as far as taking off the lenses, I though to take half of them off. I already do not have them on the cyans or actinics because there are too few of them to concentrate the light. So the ones that would be getting taken off would be the whites and Royal Blues. I'd take 1/2 of those lenses off. I bet the tank lighting will just look better over all also. One reason I was thinking this, because it sounds like it could have about same effect as all the LEDS having a wider angle. So 1/2 with "narrow" 60 degree angle and 1/2 with wide 120-180 degree angle. Sounds logical? :-D

PaleHorse · 07/19/2014, 11:01 AM

60 degrees!! Wow. That will burn coral easy

CTaylor · 07/19/2014, 11:41 AM

I don't get why I was suggested to get the 60's. Anyhow, I just took off many of the lenses.. took about 2 mins, really easy. I have lenses now mainly on the 8 along the right and left sides and a few scattered in the middle... out of 48 LEDs only 15 with lenses, and 4 are on the left edge, 3 on the right (one is burned out).
There are no lenses above the stressed acro btw.
This sounds good (for now)?

CTaylor · 07/28/2014, 09:34 PM

I just got a PAR sensor to hook up to my multimeter. The only LEDS with lenses, are on the ends. At 100% intensity, though the PAR is actually little lower than I thought it would be. PAR:
at 24" depth:
165 on left side, 135 toward the middle (from right to left).

12" depth:
265 on right side. This is right side because it's the only place that there was a rock midway down and pretty much under the lens'ed LEDs.
165 near middle.

How does the above sound, given I'm almost all lens-less (for now)?

I've actually had the lights dialed down to 25% above minimum up until today. That was obviously even lower PAR: 100 at the 24" depth. I am now putting it 100% to see what reaction the corals have.

Where do I get good 90 degree lenses?
Thanks

swk · 07/28/2014, 10:00 PM

I've come to believe that PAR meters and LEDs don't play nice.

My buddy gets good growth and color at par of 150-175 readings.

Me, I burn the crap out of everything at 280-300 readings on my reef radiance fixtures.

Miz40B · 07/28/2014, 10:26 PM

How are you dosing your Kalk? Possible Kalk burn?

CTaylor · 07/29/2014, 05:36 AM

For the kalk, I'm dosing right outside the out flow of my protein skimmer. I don't think it's a calk burn, b/c my other corals were never affected. I still believe it's the LED optics or soothing related, because the way the last acro died, from the tips most exposed to the light first. Also, my torch I recently received was melting at first also. It had about 5 live heads to it. The only one remaining is the one that had the least light.

I can get 80 degree optics from rapidled, which is who i got my LED kits from in the first place. Is this still too narrow? And are the better quality optics than others? I'm thinking "cheap" ones might make it so there are light rays coming off the LED, similar to beams of higher intensity light that is to focused (thereby being where a burn can happen ?).

Thanks again.

07/16/2014, 05:33 AM	#1
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	Burnt acro tips under LED Hi, I am realizing that my LED's may be too bright (esp on full blast). I didn't know why my corals were often "melting", esp LPS. Anyhow, currently I have a nice looking acro head. The branches that are shaded have polyp extension, and look healthy. The tips, with most light exposure are bleached. I have 65 gallon, 24" tall, about 10-12" off surface are 48 LEDs (a lot, I know). But they are dialed as far dim as possible without them going off. I have 6 420 actinic, 4 cyan, 4 BLUE, 4 Natural White, the rest are split between cool white and Royal Blues (all from Rapid LED, except the 420 nm actinics). All wager specs look good.. Ca, Alk, pH, temp, ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. phosphate. Good skimming also. The acro is near the bottom of the tank. I originally had the lights on about 50% brighter than they are now. At that time, the acro had a good amount of strings coming off (mesenteries? from stress?) . Since I dimmed the lights, there are far less strings, but the tips are still white. The tank does not look very brightly lit now. Is the acro just recovering from the original burn? It's been about a week since i lowered the intensity to it's lowest setting. BTW: I do have SPS xmas rock doing really well, mid tank level... elegance doing awesome about same level of tank as the acro, and torch (that had some heads originally burned --- the rest doing good now on bottom of the tank). Zooanthids are good under a "shady area".. same with star polyps. I know it seems "obvious" the lights are too bright, but at this point the tank just looks quite dim! Any input appreciated.

07/16/2014, 07:33 AM	#2
rgulrich greybeard Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: MD Posts: 893	I've bleached a few myself and learned the hard way to slowly acclimate new purchases to high intensity LED lighting over a couple of weeks. The remainder of the inhabitants don't seem to mind a temporary dimmer period. While it might not work for every coral, I just ramp up the lights slowly over about a week or so - that's the approach I've taken and it seems to work pretty well. Oh, and I do have a few with bleached-out areas on them still (even though the polyps extend quite nicely)...after six months. The rest of the same coral has colored up nicely, but the last bit...well, all corals are different, and some of them take a long time to color back up again. __________________ The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination. Albert Einstein Current Tank Info: 360 degree walk around 300 DD island–4 300W & 2 165W ViparSpectra, 4 Kessil A350W, 2 A360WE, 3 XF150, 1 XF250, 1 XF350 Gyre along with 2 PP40 and 2 IceCap 3K gyre for robust current. Basement 150 gallon RubberMaid sump, SKIMZ skimmer, DCP18000

07/16/2014, 10:09 AM	#3
swk Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Wine Country CA Posts: 2,593	Do you carbon dose? If so, what's your alk? __________________ Member of Wine Country Reefers Current Tank Info: 75 gal SPS dominant reef. Geo calcium reactor with masterflex pump, Deltec 1455 skimmer, 2 mp40QD, mp10wes, lit by a 6x54 dimable ATI sunpower and controlled by Reef Angel

07/17/2014, 10:46 PM	#10
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	i wish you could rent a par meter :-D . Though I see one at http://www.sciencelabsupplies.com/Lu...FSdk7Aod_TcAag ...cheap! SWK: I'm going to read up more on Vodka dosing... from what little I know my tank is low enough density in life that I don't have to worry about it right now. But that's for another thread... or my own reading :-D. I'll move it all way to sand bed, just 4" more down. Another acro I have became very intensely colored after many months under the LEDs. It was almost colorless (NOT bleached) after I got it.. then took 4 months or more to color up.. eventually turning very intense color. So it makes sense the actual energy from the light is much more than I can perceive. And the elegance on bottom of the tank that opens an amazing amount (it's over a year old btw) even on lowest LED level. So I am really curious about the actual numbers a par meter would say. Last edited by CTaylor; 07/17/2014 at 10:55 PM.

07/28/2014, 10:00 PM	#23
swk Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Wine Country CA Posts: 2,593	I've come to believe that PAR meters and LEDs don't play nice. My buddy gets good growth and color at par of 150-175 readings. Me, I burn the crap out of everything at 280-300 readings on my reef radiance fixtures. __________________ Member of Wine Country Reefers Current Tank Info: 75 gal SPS dominant reef. Geo calcium reactor with masterflex pump, Deltec 1455 skimmer, 2 mp40QD, mp10wes, lit by a 6x54 dimable ATI sunpower and controlled by Reef Angel

07/16/2014, 08:22 PM	#4
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	8.9 dkh The acro is getting worse. The white tips are spreading slowly down. The strings slowed down, though. The tips look like icicles on top of the remaining live (shaded) branches. I don't get it, the lights are not bright at all (to my eye). Is it one of my LEDs wavelengths (like the cyan? -- do acros and some LPS hate that wavelength?)

07/17/2014, 10:22 AM	#7
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	Carbon dose? I don't know what that is. I dose Kalk. I have not yet re-set up my calcium reactor (not sure if I will). Is my alk possibly too hight?

07/17/2014, 01:16 PM	#9
whosurcaddie Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,354	Move it down to the sand bed.

07/18/2014, 09:00 AM	#11
whosurcaddie Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,354	If you want to dose carbon I would use vinegar instead. %5 Acetate white vinegar.

07/18/2014, 10:37 AM	#13
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	I'll look more into that sometime... As for the subject matter .... I'm going to get a PAR sensor Apogee to add on to my dinky multimeter. So I have an idea of the light. **I was thinking to possibly remove all the lenses from my LEDs. Because with the lenses, from the center of the LED there is a higher intensity beam. I'm sure its still there without the lens, but has to be more spread out. Sure I won't have all the light in the tank, but it might be a lot better NOT to, as far as controlling intensity and wavelength blending. Maybe this will be a new thing.. to remove all lenses? I have a feeling this could be a real solution :-/ or :-D lol

07/18/2014, 10:52 AM	#14
whosurcaddie Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,354	What degree optics are they?

07/18/2014, 11:04 AM	#15
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	60 degrees... 5 watt crees, except for the cyan and the actinics -- 3 watts.

07/18/2014, 11:23 AM	#16
whosurcaddie Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,354	There's your problem. 60 degree optics are very focused I would switch them out for 90* optics. 60's are for tanks deeper than 2 feet 90's would be perfect.

07/18/2014, 09:29 PM	#17
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	Well.. I ordered a par meter sensor to attach to my multimeter: apogee sq-120. I'm hoping this will give me some answers. With the lights dimmed as far as I can even with 60 optics, can it still be too bright? or did i just fry the acro at the beginning and it's on a one way course? Im bummed that I killed a few corals for their sakes.. and also financially several hundred down drain. I don't want to keep killing them. I guess best way to proceed is test the light levels, then get a few "cheap" pieces with lights all the way down and start over (?). I know LEDs can be great.. But I wouldn't have switched from Halide if I knew this. The color overall with halide was better also, and the rays of light were nicer, etc. crap! Frustration. I put so much time into building my set up DIY kits. The time more than the money!

07/19/2014, 12:48 AM	#18
whosurcaddie Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,354	Yeah the shimmer isn't the best when you have multiple light sources. My favorite DIY setup is the Single chip multi aray LED's. With this type of setup you have the majority of your light coming from a single point like a metal halide. It's what the Kessil uses but you can build your own and the chips aren't that expensive. 50 watts in a single chip. Its going to take time you don't have any tissue loss and it didn't dump all of its zooxanthellae so it will be fine. First thing, I would remove the optics. Next thing I would do is get some 90* degree optics. given the proper environment it will recover the coral's not dead just stressed. Give it some time.

07/19/2014, 10:06 AM	#19
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	looks interesting. But I already have my set up. with all my LEDs. I don't want to get the next best thing every year and spill several hundred each time. Next year there will be something just as greater than the chip there. **as far as taking off the lenses, I though to take half of them off. I already do not have them on the cyans or actinics because there are too few of them to concentrate the light. So the ones that would be getting taken off would be the whites and Royal Blues. I'd take 1/2 of those lenses off. I bet the tank lighting will just look better over all also. One reason I was thinking this, because it sounds like it could have about same effect as all the LEDS having a wider angle. So 1/2 with "narrow" 60 degree angle and 1/2 with wide 120-180 degree angle. Sounds logical? :-D

07/19/2014, 11:01 AM	#20
PaleHorse Moved On Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 421	60 degrees!! Wow. That will burn coral easy

07/19/2014, 11:41 AM	#21
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	I don't get why I was suggested to get the 60's. Anyhow, I just took off many of the lenses.. took about 2 mins, really easy. I have lenses now mainly on the 8 along the right and left sides and a few scattered in the middle... out of 48 LEDs only 15 with lenses, and 4 are on the left edge, 3 on the right (one is burned out). There are no lenses above the stressed acro btw. This sounds good (for now)?

07/28/2014, 09:34 PM	#22
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	I just got a PAR sensor to hook up to my multimeter. The only LEDS with lenses, are on the ends. At 100% intensity, though the PAR is actually little lower than I thought it would be. PAR: at 24" depth: 165 on left side, 135 toward the middle (from right to left). 12" depth: 265 on right side. This is right side because it's the only place that there was a rock midway down and pretty much under the lens'ed LEDs. 165 near middle. How does the above sound, given I'm almost all lens-less (for now)? I've actually had the lights dialed down to 25% above minimum up until today. That was obviously even lower PAR: 100 at the 24" depth. I am now putting it 100% to see what reaction the corals have. Where do I get good 90 degree lenses? Thanks

07/28/2014, 10:26 PM	#24
Miz40B Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 169	Burnt acro tips under LED How are you dosing your Kalk? Possible Kalk burn?

07/29/2014, 05:36 AM	#25
CTaylor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,524	For the kalk, I'm dosing right outside the out flow of my protein skimmer. I don't think it's a calk burn, b/c my other corals were never affected. I still believe it's the LED optics or soothing related, because the way the last acro died, from the tips most exposed to the light first. Also, my torch I recently received was melting at first also. It had about 5 live heads to it. The only one remaining is the one that had the least light. I can get 80 degree optics from rapidled, which is who i got my LED kits from in the first place. Is this still too narrow? And are the better quality optics than others? I'm thinking "cheap" ones might make it so there are light rays coming off the LED, similar to beams of higher intensity light that is to focused (thereby being where a burn can happen ?). Thanks again.