400G equipment help

[Galtamar]

I'm currently on the planning stages of my new build, I have been in the hobby for about 12 years but currently have not own an aquarium for the past ~3 years. I have being reading a lot to put me up to speed and see what equipement should I get for the build.

Aquarium dimensions are 85"L x 36"W x 30"H which is ~400G. It will be made of 3/4" crystal and only seen from the front. Overflow will be external with a beanaimal setup. It will be a mixed reef with a heavy bioload. Back of the aquarium will be on his own room, about 12' x 8'. This aquarium is on a terrace on my backyard, and the room where the aquarium is has an 8' ceilling but has about 3 feet on top of the aquarium that has no ceiling and is open into the terrace ceiling which is about 14'. This is by architect design and helps with air circulation.

I live in Puerto Rico were electricity cost are very high ($0.32 kWh) and very hot, so heat transfer and power consumption of equipment is very important for me.

Current equipment list is:
Sump: dont know yet, it will be custom made locally and go below aquarium, probably be around 80"L x 30"W x ??"H separated on various areas for refugium, criptic area, skimmer (if internal) etc.

Pumps:
Return: 2 Waveline DC-12000 (head preassure about 5')
Circulation:
2 Vortech MP60WES
Maxspect Riptide (Waiting for reviews)

Skimmer:
If Internal:
Vertex VX-300 Alpha Cone
Reef Life Support Systems R12-u
AquaMaxx Cone 6 or 7
Royal Exclusiv Bubble King Supermarin 300 (Last choice because of price, but if needed ill get it)

If External: well dont know, seems ill need extra pump to feed it, which I dont want to, because of electricity.

Lights:
Undecided, want LEDs for obvious reasons but seems there are still not up to the usual MH/T5 combo. This is were I need the help the most. Which ones would you choose, how many, etc.

Chiller: need one that has the heat producing part (condenser???) apart of the chilling unit. Any recomendatios, I know that they exist but havent found any.

Will have reactors, dosing pumps, Apex controller etc. but w this stuff Im set.

Any help will be greatly apreciated.
P.S. Will start build tread when project is more complete, currently finishing fish room.

[slief]

A couple comments. I have a similar system and similar requirements. I also had the Alpha 300 and recently switched to the Supermarin 250. I cut my electric bill from over $1100 per month to less than $500 per month during the summer and less than $400 during the winter. This was done through a combination of pump changes, lighting changes and raising my acceptable temp level so as not to need my chiller. I use fans as a means of keeping my temps at below my maximum threshold now which work great. I strongly suggest you read through my build thread as there is much you can learn from it's progression over the years. I cover my 25 years or so in this hobby and my current tank is over 20 years old now and has seen it share of upgrades in the last several years. All of which are covered in that thread.

First, I think the Alpha 300 may not be the best choice for you unless your system is going to be very heavily populated with fish. My total volume on my system is 600+ gallons and I've got between 70 and 80 fish that are fed heavily every day. I've also got a lot of soft coral. As much as I LOVED my Alpha 300, I found the Alpha to be too large for my tank and it was inconsistent once it dropped the dissolved solids. It was truley my favorite skimmer until I got my new Supermarin. I strongly considered the Supermarin 300 but for the same reason I chose the Supermarin 250 with the RD3 Speedy pump. My theory was that I was better off having a skimmer that worked hard consistently than an oversized skimmer with too large of a neck that worked hard for a short period of time and once the dissolved organics were reduced would sit and kind of idle until the system built up enough dissolved organics to feed the skimmer again. Skimmers need to be fed in order to work properly and efficiently. In some cases less is more.

Given your geography, I'd skip on those Chinese DC pumps. They seem to have very high failure rates and return pumps are a very critical piece of equipment in which failures are unacceptable.. Instead I'd run a single Dart Gold. They are very efficient and will provide you plenty of flow. They are also very reliable, easy on the power bill and easy to swap seals should you need to.

If you are considering MP60's, no reason to even consider the rip tide. You may see immediate reviews but proven reliability takes time in the field and until the riptides have been on the market for a long enough time, reliability will be speculative. It looks like a neat idea but I think the power heads like the MP's and the Tunzes are going to prove to be better in the long run. To me Riptide looks too gimmicky. You could also consider some Tunze 6255's instead of the MP60's...

Again, take a good look at my thread. I'm sure there is much knowledge you can gain from it as it would apply to your system on many levels.

[Galtamar]

Thank you for the reply, going to read your thread now.

[sandwi54]

I have a 375g DT and 125 sump, a total of 500g system and I keep fish both in the DT and sump. I agree with slief that the Vertex Alpha 300 or RLSS 12-u will be too big for your system unless you plan to stock very heavily. I think the Alpha 250 or RLSS 10-u will be the proper choice. I use RLSS 12-e now which I upgraded from SRO XP-5000 EXT to be able to handle the bioload of my 19 fish. You may go with the external version and just feed it with the water from the drain pipe.

For the return pump, I don't see why you need 2 waveline 12000. One should be more than enough for a 400g tank. You only need a turnover rate of 3x your tank volume, especially when you will have 2 MP60 to create in-tank flow. Anything more than that is a waste of electricity. I use a single Water Blaster HY-10000 dialed down by 25%.

For lighting, I would go with ATI LED powermodule. It's expensive but you get the best of both worlds. I plan on getting one for my 150g reef.

[Galtamar]

Originally Posted by slief

A couple comments. I have a similar system and similar requirements. I also had the Alpha 300 and recently switched to the Supermarin 250. I cut my electric bill from over $1100 per month to less than $500 per month during the summer and less than $400 during the winter. This was done through a combination of pump changes, lighting changes and raising my acceptable temp level so as not to need my chiller. I use fans as a means of keeping my temps at below my maximum threshold now which work great. I strongly suggest you read through my build thread as there is much you can learn from it's progression over the years. I cover my 25 years or so in this hobby and my current tank is over 20 years old now and has seen it share of upgrades in the last several years. All of which are covered in that thread.

First, I think the Alpha 300 may not be the best choice for you unless your system is going to be very heavily populated with fish. My total volume on my system is 600+ gallons and I've got between 70 and 80 fish that are fed heavily every day. I've also got a lot of soft coral. As much as I LOVED my Alpha 300, I found the Alpha to be too large for my tank and it was inconsistent once it dropped the dissolved solids. It was truley my favorite skimmer until I got my new Supermarin. I strongly considered the Supermarin 300 but for the same reason I chose the Supermarin 250 with the RD3 Speedy pump. My theory was that I was better off having a skimmer that worked hard consistently than an oversized skimmer with too large of a neck that worked hard for a short period of time and once the dissolved organics were reduced would sit and kind of idle until the system built up enough dissolved organics to feed the skimmer again. Skimmers need to be fed in order to work properly and efficiently. In some cases less is more.

Given your geography, I'd skip on those Chinese DC pumps. They seem to have very high failure rates and return pumps are a very critical piece of equipment in which failures are unacceptable.. Instead I'd run a single Dart Gold. They are very efficient and will provide you plenty of flow. They are also very reliable, easy on the power bill and easy to swap seals should you need to.

If you are considering MP60's, no reason to even consider the rip tide. You may see immediate reviews but proven reliability takes time in the field and until the riptides have been on the market for a long enough time, reliability will be speculative. It looks like a neat idea but I think the power heads like the MP's and the Tunzes are going to prove to be better in the long run. To me Riptide looks too gimmicky. You could also consider some Tunze 6255's instead of the MP60's...

Again, take a good look at my thread. I'm sure there is much knowledge you can gain from it as it would apply to your system on many levels.

Just finished reading your thread, and like you said it was very helpful. Seems that you like the BK much better than the Vertex. Will the Dart be able to run the reactors, chiller, and still keep the 4-7X turnover for the system???

[slief]

Originally Posted by Galtamar

Just finished reading your thread, and like you said it was very helpful. Seems that you like the BK much better than the Vertex. Will the Dart be able to run the reactors, chiller, and still keep the 4-7X turnover for the system???

I'm glad you took time to read it. Given the early stages of your build and planning and our somewhat similar tank sizes, I figured you could get some good ideas there. Especially with the evolution of my system over the last 17 years that is well documented there. The thread title is somewhat misleading time wise now.

The dart absolutely will power all of that.. That was one of the key reasons I was suggesting the Dart Gold. Personally, I prefer high turn over anyway and that pump puts out and the ratings from Dart are honest ratings too. Given that I run filter socks, higher flow over the overflow helps in exporting solids and waste.

Reactors don't require much flow either. If you find you have too much flow you simply gate the pump down on the return side. With the Reeflo pumps, if you gate them down, they actually consume less power too. Having the pump external reduces the possibility of stray power and unlike the DC pumps, the Reeflo motors are proven to be very reliable. Yea, some have had seal issues but I have not and the seals are easy enough to replace anyway. I keep spares on hand just in case but after 3 years on my Dart and Hammerhead golds and a year on the previous standard Dart and Hammerhead, I never had any seals fail.

Not to get into a debate with others on the DC pumps but since you are in the planning stages, here is my logic. With the DC pumps and even the DC pump powered skimmers, at this stage it's a major crap shoot that isn't favorable in my opinion. Just take a look at the RLSS thread in the Premium Aquatics section. You can also google the subject. Many are seeing multiple pump or power supply failures in a single year. Rust or corrosion was an issue to with some of the early pumps too and that is not a good thing. Bottom line, there are plenty of failure related horror stories in a very short amount of time. Same goes with the skimmer pumps and these failures have not been limited to RLSS. Reef Octopus has similar issues just like the Jaebo and Diablo pumps.

Sadly, I suspect that many people who are clamoring over these DC powered pumps have only had them a very short amount of time and for many, it's not if but rather how soon before they fail. Some may argue that the failures we read about are out of tens of thousands of pumps but there is NO way that RLSS, Diablo, Jaebo or even Reef Octopus has thousands of these DC pumps in peoples tanks in the US let alone world wide.

Now a new generation DC pump was just released by RLSS however, they haven't been out long enough to demonstrate failure trends and as such, I would shy away. Especially for any critical piece of equipment like a skimmer or return pump. Further that with you residing in PR. To those that are running these pumps, I am sorry but this is my opinion based on the failures that I have read about and I read a lot and pay close attention to new technology.

I'd speculate that there is a design flaw with the power supplies that have resulted in the high failure rate. The newer power supplies are moving towards larger heat sinks and away from fans but even so, these things are running hot enough to cook themselves (most likely capacitor or transistor failures) despite the addition of the fans. I'm in the computer manufacturing business and know a lot about power supply design, failure and repair. There have also been plenty of pump motor failures likely as a result of the control chip failing which is located inside the motor block. Will the new or next generation be an issue? Who knows. Would I risk it at this point... Absolutely not.


Back on topic, I run a Hammerhead gold for my return and it runs my carbon reactor, my GFO reactor, my display fuge and 100' underground loop to the garage and back where my chiller (that I don't use) is located. All this in addition to feeding my tank with plenty of water. For you tank size, the Dart would be perfect.

As for me liking the Supermarin much more. Yes for good reason. It a better skimmer design with an arguably better pump. It's also more efficient and easier to dial in and adjust. That is why I made my switch and I am glad I did. Also, BK is opening up a facility in Florida which really bolster support and service for us folks in North America.

[Galtamar]

Originally Posted by sandwi54

I have a 375g DT and 125 sump, a total of 500g system and I keep fish both in the DT and sump. I agree with slief that the Vertex Alpha 300 or RLSS 12-u will be too big for your system unless you plan to stock very heavily. I think the Alpha 250 or RLSS 10-u will be the proper choice. I use RLSS 12-e now which I upgraded from SRO XP-5000 EXT to be able to handle the bioload of my 19 fish. You may go with the external version and just feed it with the water from the drain pipe.

For the return pump, I don't see why you need 2 waveline 12000. One should be more than enough for a 400g tank. You only need a turnover rate of 3x your tank volume, especially when you will have 2 MP60 to create in-tank flow. Anything more than that is a waste of electricity. I use a single Water Blaster HY-10000 dialed down by 25%.

For lighting, I would go with ATI LED powermodule. It's expensive but you get the best of both worlds. I plan on getting one for my 150g reef.

Do you think that the ATI 60" 4x75W LED & 8x80W T5 will light my tank well ?

[amphibian]

I have to admit that Royal exclusiv are the best skimmers i have owned,
have owned most of the better skimmers out there and will not go back there.
I have owned almost every type of royal exclusiv skimmers to date .
I have tested them in all sorts of environments and they have impressed me many times.
I was using 6 mp40 for about 6 months and had to switch to tunze 6105.
due to the vortech failure and to noisy. tunze have been there for 3 years and super quite and reliable.
I was also using waveline pumps for returns but as soon as 2 failed , converted to Royal exclusiv rd3 speedy. full control and no surprises.

some of my adventures below

Mixed reef 8 x 2.6 x 2 Revamp in progress
http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB3/viewto...f=145&t=245064
Rebirth of a goodie900 x 900 x 450 http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB3/viewto...f=148&t=253999
4 x 3 x 2 frag tank With a difference http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB3/viewto...f=148&t=257402