Tank may be crashing?

dirtycontour · 08/28/2014, 07:54 AM

My 75 gallon softy/LPS tank is about five years old. I tried to add some SPS a few months ago. For the first month or so they were doing well, encrusting around plugs/rock. Then they took a turn for the worse and slowly but surely died. I figured, SPS wasn't for me.

About a month ago, I noticed my duncan coral not fully opening and flesh bubbling, favites losing flesh and color going pale and my two chalices are losing flesh as well.

All softies are doing well. I have a bubble coral and a hammer coral that do not seem to be affected by whatever is happening.

I test weekly to every other week and do not see any issues. Numbers are as follows:
Ca: 450-480
Alk:9-10
Mg: 1400-1500
SG: 1.026
NO3: 1-5ppm
PO4: 0.03-0.07
(Ca, Mg, NO3 tested by Salifert; tests not expired)
(Alk & PO4 tested by Hanna; tests not expired)

I put in a poly filter pad last week in hopes of showing some kind of copper or heavy metal leaching. The pad is a light brown color today.

The only recent change is that I switched salts from IO to Coralife. I do weekly 5 gallon water changes.

I'm running out of ideas here. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

ebond009 · 08/28/2014, 08:05 AM

what kind of lights?if LED's did you adjust settings recently? if T5 or halide, time for a bulb change?

dirtycontour · 08/28/2014, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebond009

what kind of lights?if LED's did you adjust settings recently? if T5 or halide, time for a bulb change?

Six bulb Sunpower. ATI bulbs are probably five months old.

Crooked Reef · 08/28/2014, 08:29 AM

Do you have any leather corals? Could be allelopathy (chemical warfare between corals). I would run some carbon if you are not already doing so. It will help protect against allelopathy.

slief · 08/28/2014, 09:22 AM

While changing salt mix may seem like a mundane thing, doing so in an established tank can be problematic. You are effectively changing your water chemistry as the two different salts are likely very different in their make up and parameters. As such, your corals may not like the change and are reacting accordingly. If it were me, I'd go back to the original salt immediately and double your water changes for the next 4 or more weeks and see if it comes back around. Also, are you using RODI to mix your water?

SPotter · 08/28/2014, 09:46 AM

Sorry to here about this! You show your alk as 9-10. Stability of all levels is key and IMO alk is the most important. If you are ranging from 9-10 maybe this could be the cause. Hope you figure it out soon!

dirtycontour · 08/28/2014, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crooked Reef

Do you have any leather corals? Could be allelopathy (chemical warfare between corals). I would run some carbon if you are not already doing so. It will help protect against allelopathy.

I do run carbon 24/7. The toadstool has been in the tank with the LPS for a few years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slief

While changing salt mix may seem like a mundane thing, doing so in an established tank can be problematic. You are effectively changing your water chemistry as the two different salts are likely very different in their make up and parameters. As such, your corals may not like the change and are reacting accordingly. If it were me, I'd go back to the original salt immediately and double your water changes for the next 4 or more weeks and see if it comes back around. Also, are you using RODI to mix your water?

Yes, RO/DI for SW and top-offs(ATO). I will go back to IO and double WCs as you suggest. Can't hurt at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPotter

Sorry to here about this! You show your alk as 9-10. Stability of all levels is key and IMO alk is the most important. If you are ranging from 9-10 maybe this could be the cause. Hope you figure it out soon!

I hope so too, thank you.

Zalick · 08/28/2014, 10:52 AM

What is your PH levels?

dirtycontour · 08/28/2014, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalick

What is your PH levels?

pH goes from 7.8 - 8 monitored by my Apex.

Zalick · 08/28/2014, 02:05 PM

NO3 is high, but I'd be surprised if that is causing the issues.... Maybe someone with more experience with NO3 can chime in. RHF?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/

Craigdillman · 08/28/2014, 03:05 PM

how is the temperature? any recent temp swings?

Also is the skimmer working good? nothing else changed in that area

Decadence · 08/31/2014, 11:56 AM

Earl, how much vinegar are you dosing right now, how is your skimming and are you running any phosphate removing media? What is your fish load like?

dirtycontour · 08/31/2014, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decadence

Earl, how much vinegar are you dosing right now, how is your skimming and are you running any phosphate removing media? What is your fish load like?

Dosing vinegar 35ml/day through a BRS 1.1 ml/min over the course of eight hours(Apex). I empty my skimmer cup at least twice a week, seems to be very consistent. I stopped GFO a few months back and PO4 hasn't climbed. Yellow tang, two clowns, bengaii cardinal, yellow watchman goby, yellow hogfish and a six line wrasse. Tank is fed one cube frozen in the morning(alternate between PE Mysis and LRS Reef Frenzy) and a pinch of flakes in the evening. Nori for the tang every other day.

Decadence · 08/31/2014, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtycontour

Dosing vinegar 35ml/day through a BRS 1.1 ml/min over the course of eight hours(Apex). I empty my skimmer cup at least twice a week, seems to be very consistent. I stopped GFO a few months back and PO4 hasn't climbed. Yellow tang, two clowns, bengaii cardinal, yellow watchman goby, yellow hogfish and a six line wrasse. Tank is fed one cube frozen in the morning(alternate between PE Mysis and LRS Reef Frenzy) and a pinch of flakes in the evening. Nori for the tang every other day.

It sounds like you have enough nutrients, what I was worried about. It sounds to me like you have some sort of a contamination issue. Is there anything in your tank with a magnet? What about pumps? Have you removed the impellers to check for swollen magnets? Any children been to your house which may have thrown a penny or nickel in the tank or sump? Do water changes help or make things worse? Have you checked the tank for bad stray voltage?

gbru316 · 08/31/2014, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalick

NO3 is high, but I'd be surprised if that is causing the issues.... Maybe someone with more experience with NO3 can chime in. RHF?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/

1-5 ppm isn't anywhere near high enough to cause a crash.

dirtycontour · 08/31/2014, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decadence

It sounds like you have enough nutrients, what I was worried about. It sounds to me like you have some sort of a contamination issue. Is there anything in your tank with a magnet? What about pumps? Have you removed the impellers to check for swollen magnets? Any children been to your house which may have thrown a penny or nickel in the tank or sump? Do water changes help or make things worse? Have you checked the tank for bad stray voltage?

I figured the poly filter would pick up any metals leaching, which it hasn't. Stray voltage is something I haven't explored yet.

Av8bluewater · 08/31/2014, 11:42 PM

Got any photos?
When carbon dosing there are many reports of SPS dying with Alk above 8.
Do you see any slime Green/blue/ red/brown stuff?
If not already I would get very aggressive with detritus. Vacuum more often, use a powerhead to blast out all holes and cracks in rocks.
Use a hose going into a filter sock in the sump to vacuum unlimited time. I use my turkey baster sometimes straped to the end of the hose and go around the rocks. Squirt and suck up any muck. And of course more water changes.
Consider some prodibio digest.

cambo123 · 09/01/2014, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtycontour

I figured the poly filter would pick up any metals leaching, which it hasn't. Stray voltage is something I haven't explored yet.

Not necessarily. I went through this fiasco, to a somewhat greater degree, 6 months ago

Started with this
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2368762

then this
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2371995

then
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2382751

then
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2381456

This was a direct correlation to the failure of the MJ pump in the first thread and even the hardiest stony corals were pretty much dead when I gave them away. Soft corals were unaffected. At no point did I ever see my polyfilter (which I was running 24-7 in a HOB filter) change color. The level in ppm that can affect corals negatively is below the threshold of them changing colors. I went through ups and downs when trying to treat the tank before dismantling the tank and restarting with 50% new rock and 50% acid washed old rock.

saltyair · 09/01/2014, 10:00 AM

This is always tough to pin point it could be a combo effect.
alk 9-10 swings can effect sps and some lps.
I wouldn't dismiss the leather / softy chemical warfare even with carbon running. Once I sold off my finger and toadstool corals my sps did better.
Do you feed corals? In my experience when carbon dosing or using bio pellets feeding is very important.

Good luck and please update these types of threads are important for all reefers

Zalick · 09/01/2014, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbru316

1-5 ppm isn't anywhere near high enough to cause a crash.

That's what I thought and cited to RHF article saying as much.

Earl - Are things still declining? you can check for stray voltage pretty easy, usually, by putting your hand in the tank and then touching a ground. You normally would feel a tingle, if not outright shock.

dirtycontour · 09/01/2014, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saltyair

This is always tough to pin point it could be a combo effect.
alk 9-10 swings can effect sps and some lps.
I wouldn't dismiss the leather / softy chemical warfare even with carbon running. Once I sold off my finger and toadstool corals my sps did better.
Do you feed corals? In my experience when carbon dosing or using bio pellets feeding is very important.

Good luck and please update these types of threads are important for all reefers

I do not directly feed any coral. It just seems strange that this happens all of the sudden. The toadstool has been together with LPS for at least three years.

I will continue to update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalick

That's what I thought and cited to RHF article saying as much.

Earl - Are things still declining? you can check for stray voltage pretty easy, usually, by putting your hand in the tank and then touching a ground. You normally would feel a tingle, if not outright shock.

No good news to report. I just took apart my return pump and everything looked fine. I also siphoned out my sump, which I haven't done in quite a while.

Next step is to test for stray voltage. Can anyone recommend a decent meter?

Zalick · 09/01/2014, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtycontour

I do not directly feed any coral. It just seems strange that this happens all of the sudden. The toadstool has been together with LPS for at least three years.

I will continue to update.

No good news to report. I just took apart my return pump and everything looked fine. I also siphoned out my sump, which I haven't done in quite a while.

Next step is to test for stray voltage. Can anyone recommend a decent meter?

Id recommend a grounding probe regardless of if you have stray voltag

Sk8r · 09/01/2014, 02:12 PM

Grounding probe. And just do some water changes. Run carbon, maybe. That takes care of coral spit and various stuff. The polypad is picking up organics (brown.) Check your rodi tds. If your filter's expired, copper from house pipes might conceivably become an issue.

If you start seeing a real crash, extract all living critters to qt so the tank doesn't have dead bioload landing atop its stressed sandbed. It might be able to recover short of a crash.

ALSO check all your tests to be sure none are past their expiration: had an expired alk test once do a number on my tank---fortunately I figured it, but I had to replace some pipes.

dirtycontour · 09/02/2014, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Grounding probe. And just do some water changes. Run carbon, maybe. That takes care of coral spit and various stuff. The polypad is picking up organics (brown.) Check your rodi tds. If your filter's expired, copper from house pipes might conceivably become an issue.

If you start seeing a real crash, extract all living critters to qt so the tank doesn't have dead bioload landing atop its stressed sandbed. It might be able to recover short of a crash.

ALSO check all your tests to be sure none are past their expiration: had an expired alk test once do a number on my tank---fortunately I figured it, but I had to replace some pipes.

Yup, WCs it is. I've started doing two a week as opposed to my usual one a week. I really don't notice a difference if the tank looks better or worse after a WC, which makes me think it's not the new salt mix. RO/DI is reading 0 tds. Double-checked all tests and they are not expired. Maybe I'll take a sample to the LFS for a second opinion.

This is my first time using a poly filter but from what I've read brown is normal?

Also, I'm not sure if I mentioned that a month or so before I noticed any issues, I changed GAC from ROX to KZ. I took out the carbon yesterday.

dirtycontour · 09/10/2014, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtycontour

Also, I'm not sure if I mentioned that a month or so before I noticed any issues, I changed GAC from ROX to KZ. I took out the carbon yesterday.

It's been about ten days since I removed the KZ GAC.
I just walked in the door and my duncan coral is opened up more now than it has been since I noticed the decline. It is still not totally happy but it's an improvement. Fingers crossed that the other corals follow suit.

I do not have any ROX on hand but I do plan to go back to it. Hopefully the carbon switch was the issue...

08/28/2014, 07:54 AM	#1
dirtycontour Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: NJ Posts: 256	Tank may be crashing? My 75 gallon softy/LPS tank is about five years old. I tried to add some SPS a few months ago. For the first month or so they were doing well, encrusting around plugs/rock. Then they took a turn for the worse and slowly but surely died. I figured, SPS wasn't for me. About a month ago, I noticed my duncan coral not fully opening and flesh bubbling, favites losing flesh and color going pale and my two chalices are losing flesh as well. All softies are doing well. I have a bubble coral and a hammer coral that do not seem to be affected by whatever is happening. I test weekly to every other week and do not see any issues. Numbers are as follows: Ca: 450-480 Alk:9-10 Mg: 1400-1500 SG: 1.026 NO3: 1-5ppm PO4: 0.03-0.07 (Ca, Mg, NO3 tested by Salifert; tests not expired) (Alk & PO4 tested by Hanna; tests not expired) I put in a poly filter pad last week in hopes of showing some kind of copper or heavy metal leaching. The pad is a light brown color today. The only recent change is that I switched salts from IO to Coralife. I do weekly 5 gallon water changes. I'm running out of ideas here. Any suggestions would be appreciated. __________________ ~Earl~ Current Tank Info: 75 gallon mixed reef, Beananimal overflow, six bulb ATI Sunpower, SRO 1000 INT, Apex Jr., vinegar dosing

08/28/2014, 08:29 AM	#4
Crooked Reef Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,765	Do you have any leather corals? Could be allelopathy (chemical warfare between corals). I would run some carbon if you are not already doing so. It will help protect against allelopathy. __________________ “In wine there is wisdom; in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria.” - Benjamin Franklin Current Tank Info: 90 gallon reef. Biocube 29 lionfish tank. Mantis tank.

08/28/2014, 09:22 AM	#5
slief RC Sponsor Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 14,173	While changing salt mix may seem like a mundane thing, doing so in an established tank can be problematic. You are effectively changing your water chemistry as the two different salts are likely very different in their make up and parameters. As such, your corals may not like the change and are reacting accordingly. If it were me, I'd go back to the original salt immediately and double your water changes for the next 4 or more weeks and see if it comes back around. Also, are you using RODI to mix your water? __________________ Director Customer Support Royal Exclusiv USA For All Royal Exclusiv & Bubble King questions please refer to our Sponsor forum: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=745 Current Tank Info: 480G display mixed reef, 90G sump, 90G refugium, 60G display refugium. Check out my build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1783476

08/28/2014, 09:46 AM	#6
SPotter Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC Posts: 5,691	Sorry to here about this! You show your alk as 9-10. Stability of all levels is key and IMO alk is the most important. If you are ranging from 9-10 maybe this could be the cause. Hope you figure it out soon! __________________ Steve Am I really doing all of this for a fish tank?????? Current Tank Info: 360g Envision Acrylic Tank, Closed Loops, Vectra L1's, MP40QD's, 400w Radiums, Regal 300ext, Dastaco Ext3 CaRx, Controlled by GHL Profilux

08/28/2014, 03:05 PM	#11
Craigdillman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Lethbirdge Posts: 487	how is the temperature? any recent temp swings? Also is the skimmer working good? nothing else changed in that area __________________ Current tank---125 gallon mixed reef 60 gallon sump, Reef octopus nw200 skimmer, Rapid LEDs, Maxspec gyre, Mp10s, Fuge, Biweekly 20% WC, QT everything

08/28/2014, 08:05 AM	#2
ebond009 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 164	what kind of lights?if LED's did you adjust settings recently? if T5 or halide, time for a bulb change?

08/28/2014, 10:52 AM	#8
Zalick My reef tanks my wallet Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Portland Posts: 571	What is your PH levels?

08/28/2014, 02:05 PM	#10
Zalick My reef tanks my wallet Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Portland Posts: 571	NO3 is high, but I'd be surprised if that is causing the issues.... Maybe someone with more experience with NO3 can chime in. RHF? http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/

08/31/2014, 11:56 AM	#12
Decadence Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Laurel, MD Posts: 572	Earl, how much vinegar are you dosing right now, how is your skimming and are you running any phosphate removing media? What is your fish load like? __________________ ~Heavily stocked 90 gallon SPS display~

08/31/2014, 11:42 PM	#17
Av8bluewater Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 763	Got any photos? When carbon dosing there are many reports of SPS dying with Alk above 8. Do you see any slime Green/blue/ red/brown stuff? If not already I would get very aggressive with detritus. Vacuum more often, use a powerhead to blast out all holes and cracks in rocks. Use a hose going into a filter sock in the sump to vacuum unlimited time. I use my turkey baster sometimes straped to the end of the hose and go around the rocks. Squirt and suck up any muck. And of course more water changes. Consider some prodibio digest. __________________ 225 gallon SPS dominant. Reef octopus dual cx reactor w/ AP regulator . Vertex alpha 250,Apex, ATI 8X80w BML XB Super actinic strip , Aqualund bio pellet RX, 3 MP40s. Current Tank Info: 230 Rimless.

09/01/2014, 10:00 AM	#19
saltyair Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Ontario canada Posts: 871	This is always tough to pin point it could be a combo effect. alk 9-10 swings can effect sps and some lps. I wouldn't dismiss the leather / softy chemical warfare even with carbon running. Once I sold off my finger and toadstool corals my sps did better. Do you feed corals? In my experience when carbon dosing or using bio pellets feeding is very important. Good luck and please update these types of threads are important for all reefers __________________ Johnny you know what to do, you know what to do. Bye for now - Eric the actor R.I.P Current Tank Info: 180 gal

09/01/2014, 02:12 PM	#23
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Grounding probe. And just do some water changes. Run carbon, maybe. That takes care of coral spit and various stuff. The polypad is picking up organics (brown.) Check your rodi tds. If your filter's expired, copper from house pipes might conceivably become an issue. If you start seeing a real crash, extract all living critters to qt so the tank doesn't have dead bioload landing atop its stressed sandbed. It might be able to recover short of a crash. ALSO check all your tests to be sure none are past their expiration: had an expired alk test once do a number on my tank---fortunately I figured it, but I had to replace some pipes. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.