Pick your battle: phosphates or hitchhikers?

Addiction · 09/08/2014, 08:10 AM

I'm at the point where I'm down to dry rock or live rock. I really don't want to deal with the bad hitchhikerks that come with live rock, but all this talk of leeching phosphate and hair algae sounds horrible too. It feels like picking the lesser of two evils and at least with live rock, it looks awesome and has instant biological benefits. If I purchase it from somewhere like Tampa Bay Saltwater, there should be very little, if any die off and my tank is instantly cycled. Yes, I may have to deal with some hitchhikers and this could delay my success, but it sounds more interesting than cooking dry rocks in a barrel for months. Either method has extra work involved

.

Fade2White12 · 09/08/2014, 08:12 AM

Or try BRS Reef Saver rock which is terrestrially mined and phosphate free. A quick rinse and you're done.

jda · 09/08/2014, 08:14 AM

Why do you have to have hitchhikers on live rock? The normal curing process will take care of nearly all of them.

Besides, don't fool yourself... the first frag plug or coral on a small piece of rock that you add to your tank will add all kinds of bad stuff. You need to be able to deal with algae, aiptasia, pests and the like because you will get them later even if you start your tank with dry rock.

bigswaug · 09/08/2014, 08:32 AM

I would just take some live rock and give it a few freshwater dips.. That will kill any hitch hikers

Fade2White12 · 09/08/2014, 08:50 AM

Why start a brand new tank with live rock at all if you're going to dip or cure out most (or all) of the biodiversity from it anyway? All you're doing is paying 4x as much in order to save a couple weeks in the cycle.

IMO, if you feel confident enough in dealing with any potential problems (and have the funds), I'd start with LR simply due to that biodiversity. When I set up my first tank, finding all the critters and watching as my fishless, coralless tank evolved over the first 6 weeks was great!

However, since the OP has shown a significant level of worry about pests, I'd just start with the BRS.

jda · 09/08/2014, 09:25 AM

Even that BRS dry rock is full of dried, dead organics that will take time to come out. It can have algae issues just like other dry rock.

Also, at 2.49 a pound, you can get real live rock for nearly the same price. If you are paying more than $3-4 a pound for live rock by the box, then you are not negotiating well enough at the LFS. I just got 6 boxes for about $2.60 a pound - 3 boxes each of Tonga Fustion and Tukani.

Addiction · 09/08/2014, 09:57 AM

I've read numerous threads about phosphate issues with dry rock. Even with the stuff that from BRS. It just seems crazy to buy that boring looking rock and battling phosphates for months. It also seems crazy to buy boring looking rock and having to cook it for months with multiple water changes and using phosphate removal products.

Many people say to use a combo of both live and dry. But that seems even worse. Now you have phosphate issues and hitchhiker issues.

I mentioned the concern of hitchhikers because if I went with live rock, I would want to get uncured type with the most life available on it and have it shipped airport to airport for the least amount of die off.

GroktheCube · 09/08/2014, 09:57 AM

People worry too much about hitchikers. Elevate the rock in rubbermaids with some flow, and toss some bait down in the bottom. Inspect for nasties, and remove them.

FWIW, I'll be using mostly Marco Rock for my new 93 cube. It hasn't been leach much PO4 at all. Gave it a good vinegar bath, and had it in RO/DI for weeks. Virtually zero phosphate.

jda · 09/08/2014, 10:06 AM

The tests can be somewhat misleading. The calcium carbonate can bind the phosphate for a while while in RO/DI. As levels in the tank start to want to drop naturally, the phosphate will leave the calcium carbonate and head into the tank. Also, the dead organics inside of the rock will take a long time to decompose and die.

Lots and lots of people complain of issues with algae on rocks for years after using dry rock - some long, some shorter depending on other factors.

Here is the bottom line for me: rock from the ocean typically has no dried/dead organics in it and the calcium carbonate is not full of bound phosphate. The dead junk in the dry rock will need to decompose and as it does, the calcium carbonate will bind some of the P and steadily release it over time - the rest will fuel the local algae on the rocks. People have made fun of me before, but I think that it takes 2 years for dry rock to act the same as good quality ocean rock.

jda · 09/08/2014, 10:07 AM

Also, a short soak in RO/DI won't develop the necessary bacteria to start to break down the dead organics inside of the rock... this takes much more time.

Xavibear · 09/08/2014, 10:08 AM

I used Marco rock & just rinsed my rock off & tossed in my tank. Personally I don't like the look of a lot of the live rock that I see. To me I see too many boulders with no character. I like the look of the rock that I purchased. Lots of nooks & crannys for fish & other things to pop in & out of. Easy to stack. Or maybe I just miss Texas holey rock from my freshwater past.

Fade2White12 · 09/08/2014, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

Even that BRS dry rock is full of dried, dead organics that will take time to come out. It can have algae issues just like other dry rock.

Reef Saver is terrestrially mined from fossilized ancient reef. This is NOT their Pukani or Fiji which is simply dried (formally live) live rock. The Reef Saver has *almost* no organic matter on it, and will not leach phosphates as long as you give it a little rinse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

Also, at 2.49 a pound, you can get real live rock for nearly the same price. If you are paying more than $3-4 a pound for live rock by the box, then you are not negotiating well enough at the LFS. I just got 6 boxes for about $2.60 a pound - 3 boxes each of Tonga Fustion and Tukani.

Your results are atypical for 99% of RC members. Unless you are purchasing from local reefers, $3/lb is not realistic for most LFS or online outlets. TBS charges $5/lb before shipping (another $1/lb or so). I don't really see how LR is "nearly the same price." But again, your experience is atypical.

jda · 09/08/2014, 10:47 AM

Live rock is about $2 wholesale from SDC and the like.... more like $2.49 for tonga branch. The price gets cheaper with the more that you buy. Go to the LFS, buy it by the box and pick it up on the day that they get it - they just put the order on paper and it never touches their systems. Not every LFS might get this, but there will be one who give you a good price.

How did the organics leave the ancient reef when the water receeded? What magic happened - we might be able to use this on our tanks today. The mined stuff is just like the lace rock that hit the hobby 10, or so, years ago. It still has organics loaded into it from back way-back-then that will decompose.

The terrestrial stuff does have a benefit that it does not impact the current reefs with removal.

coralsnaked · 09/08/2014, 10:50 AM

The diversity of answers proves there is no right answer. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Choose your poison and drink heartily. No matter which you choose you will surely die

d2mini · 09/08/2014, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fade2White12

Why start a brand new tank with live rock at all if you're going to dip or cure out most (or all) of the biodiversity from it anyway? All you're doing is paying 4x as much in order to save a couple weeks in the cycle.

IMO, if you feel confident enough in dealing with any potential problems (and have the funds), I'd start with LR simply due to that biodiversity. When I set up my first tank, finding all the critters and watching as my fishless, coralless tank evolved over the first 6 weeks was great!

However, since the OP has shown a significant level of worry about pests, I'd just start with the BRS.

+1
www.tbsaltwater.com FTW!

Fade2White12 · 09/08/2014, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

Live rock is about $2 wholesale from SDC and the like.... more like $2.49 for tonga branch. The price gets cheaper with the more that you buy. Go to the LFS, buy it by the box and pick it up on the day that they get it - they just put the order on paper and it never touches their systems. Not every LFS might get this, but there will be one who give you a good price.

Again, atypical results. It's great that you have this access, but for the majority of reefers, this simply is not possible. I don't know of a single LFS that would do this, except for one - and that is simply due to my relationship with the store and all the business I provide them.

Quote:

How did the organics leave the ancient reef when the water receeded? What magic happened - we might be able to use this on our tanks today. The mined stuff is just like the lace rock that hit the hobby 10, or so, years ago. It still has organics loaded into it from back way-back-then that will decompose.

BRS Reef Saver comes from an ancient reef that has been eroded underground by low PH freshwater streams. All of the fresh organic material has completely decomposed (unlike dried rock) and much of residual phopshate washed away over the many thousands of years. It isn't magic at all.

JMorris271 · 09/08/2014, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coralsnaked

The diversity of answers proves there is no right answer. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Choose your poison and drink heartily. No matter which you choose you will surely die

What a fitting end to a thread.

alton · 09/08/2014, 11:57 AM

When I set up a 40 gallon for my jawfish I started with dead rock and sand, corals from my existing tanks thinking I was protected. After two years this tank had everything I tried keep out in it. From Aptaisia to bristle worms. I think sometimes the eggs of pest are everywhere? If I set up a new aquarium I would use this with a quick dip in Hydrogen Peroxide and then wait several months before adding animals and new coral. At least it would look nice versus boring dead.
http://sealifeinc.net/catalog/produc...d797a3e338b5d5

PRSPLYR · 09/08/2014, 05:43 PM

Have you used that KPA live rock? Do you know if it is comparable to TBS rock? Seems like it would be given they are both Florida based....

Timfish · 09/09/2014, 08:37 AM

Echoing Nilsen and Fossa, "The Modern Coral Reef" Vol I, I'll say quality wild live rock or aquacultured in the open ocean is very important. Regarding unwanted hitchhikers I've seen mantis and gorilla crabs, krakon worms and on cultured rock aiptasia and the one pest that has caused significantly more damage and cost many times more in terms of killed corals and labor to remove, has been the various incantations of Bubble Tip Anemones. A dim second place has been majano's that I've only had show up on stuff I've gotten from other aquarists.

I don't understand why we have to use jargon about live rock. Doing a quarantine period to make sure there's not unwanted stuff on live rock is no different than quarantining a fish to make sure there's no unwanted stuff and no different than quarantining corals (which everyone should do) to make sure there's no unwanted stuff.

Nilsen and Fossa also have an excellent chart showing the maturation process of a reef system using live rock and pictures (pg 115 & 163) of the nuisance algae that's supposed to show up and will disappear on it's own. Here's is a time line of one of my tanks set up with live rock. (For those of you who want numbers it was about 240 lbs in a 500 gallon DT and the system total was roughly 600 gallons.)

http://youtu.be/UjMFWHC4uBM

DavidinGA · 09/09/2014, 12:31 PM

I used 250# of Marco Rocks in my 210gal and all I did was rinse the rock in tap water and toss it in. I'm a year and half down the road now and have NEVER had an algae issue what so ever! Excellent PO4 free rock IMO!

I would avoid BRS pukani rock like the plague though....

ca1ore · 09/09/2014, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timfish

Echoing Nilsen and Fossa, "The Modern Coral Reef" Vol I, I'll say quality wild live rock or aquacultured in the open ocean is very important.

Zoinks, haven't seen a reference to that book in a while. Wonderful series, though now about 20 years long in the tooth. I always use live rock and have concluded that most hitchhikers are less than problematic that a few hysterical RC threads would have you believe.

d2mini · 09/09/2014, 01:36 PM

2 years in now with my TBS rock and nothing but a pleasure. Save for a couple mantis and crabs in the beginning, removed at my leisure.

JWClark · 09/09/2014, 01:45 PM

Look at reef cleaners rock--I've not heard of any phosphate issues from their rock. Using it myself w/ no issues so far. Is about $1.90 per pound and is "professionally cleaned"--see website.

I used 100lbs of this and added 90lbs of live aquaria rock during their last special--equated to about $3.15 per pound shipped. Have not seen any hitch hikers and pulled off a lot of macros such as Halimeda when I first received (it would die off during the cure anyway). Been up two weeks and some encrusting corals and other things are starting to come back to life. Much better than I expected for the price.

Also, FWIW, have had my lights on for a few days now and still no sign of any nuisance algae--actually a little surprised.

Whiterabbitrage · 09/09/2014, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fade2White12

Or try BRS Reef Saver rock which is terrestrially mined and phosphate free. A quick rinse and you're done.

1+

Why does everyone go with Pukani? I tried both and reef saver beat Pukani in every way. It's great stuff. So porous the pods live it, inside the rock. Pod population remains so strong, even with piggy wrasses and a fat Mandy. Reef saver is also lighter and so much easier to work with.
Ok, I'm done preaching now.

09/08/2014, 08:10 AM	#1
Addiction Registered Member. Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Glen Ellyn, IL Posts: 54	Pick your battle: phosphates or hitchhikers? I'm at the point where I'm down to dry rock or live rock. I really don't want to deal with the bad hitchhikerks that come with live rock, but all this talk of leeching phosphate and hair algae sounds horrible too. It feels like picking the lesser of two evils and at least with live rock, it looks awesome and has instant biological benefits. If I purchase it from somewhere like Tampa Bay Saltwater, there should be very little, if any die off and my tank is instantly cycled. Yes, I may have to deal with some hitchhikers and this could delay my success, but it sounds more interesting than cooking dry rocks in a barrel for months. Either method has extra work involved .

09/08/2014, 08:32 AM	#4
bigswaug Registered Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Canton, MI Posts: 115	I would just take some live rock and give it a few freshwater dips.. That will kill any hitch hikers __________________ OCD powerhead tweaker... Ive had it just right about a thousand times..... Current Tank Info: 150g rimless

09/08/2014, 10:08 AM	#11
Xavibear Crazy Prophet Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Worcester, MA Posts: 1,008	I used Marco rock & just rinsed my rock off & tossed in my tank. Personally I don't like the look of a lot of the live rock that I see. To me I see too many boulders with no character. I like the look of the rock that I purchased. Lots of nooks & crannys for fish & other things to pop in & out of. Easy to stack. Or maybe I just miss Texas holey rock from my freshwater past. __________________ 36g bowfront Current Tank Info: Pair of Occellaris clowns, Royal gramma, Yellow Watchman Goby/Tiger Pistol Shrimp, Blue tuxedo urchin, Fire shrimp, Trochus snails, Cerith snails, Nassarius snails, Ricordea mushroom, Kenya tree, Acan brain & Frogspawn

09/08/2014, 10:50 AM	#14
coralsnaked Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Austin / Port Aransas, TX Posts: 1,479	The diversity of answers proves there is no right answer. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Choose your poison and drink heartily. No matter which you choose you will surely die __________________ Merry Skerry Current Tank Info: 1 G Nano jellyfish to 1200 G Bull Nose FOWLR featuring large Holacanthus and Pomacanthus

09/09/2014, 08:37 AM	#20
Timfish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,985	Echoing Nilsen and Fossa, "The Modern Coral Reef" Vol I, I'll say quality wild live rock or aquacultured in the open ocean is very important. Regarding unwanted hitchhikers I've seen mantis and gorilla crabs, krakon worms and on cultured rock aiptasia and the one pest that has caused significantly more damage and cost many times more in terms of killed corals and labor to remove, has been the various incantations of Bubble Tip Anemones. A dim second place has been majano's that I've only had show up on stuff I've gotten from other aquarists. I don't understand why we have to use jargon about live rock. Doing a quarantine period to make sure there's not unwanted stuff on live rock is no different than quarantining a fish to make sure there's no unwanted stuff and no different than quarantining corals (which everyone should do) to make sure there's no unwanted stuff. Nilsen and Fossa also have an excellent chart showing the maturation process of a reef system using live rock and pictures (pg 115 & 163) of the nuisance algae that's supposed to show up and will disappear on it's own. Here's is a time line of one of my tanks set up with live rock. (For those of you who want numbers it was about 240 lbs in a 500 gallon DT and the system total was roughly 600 gallons.) http://youtu.be/UjMFWHC4uBM __________________ "Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs" Charles Delbeek

09/08/2014, 08:12 AM	#2
Fade2White12 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 271	Or try BRS Reef Saver rock which is terrestrially mined and phosphate free. A quick rinse and you're done.

09/08/2014, 08:14 AM	#3
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Why do you have to have hitchhikers on live rock? The normal curing process will take care of nearly all of them. Besides, don't fool yourself... the first frag plug or coral on a small piece of rock that you add to your tank will add all kinds of bad stuff. You need to be able to deal with algae, aiptasia, pests and the like because you will get them later even if you start your tank with dry rock.

09/08/2014, 08:50 AM	#5
Fade2White12 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 271	Why start a brand new tank with live rock at all if you're going to dip or cure out most (or all) of the biodiversity from it anyway? All you're doing is paying 4x as much in order to save a couple weeks in the cycle. IMO, if you feel confident enough in dealing with any potential problems (and have the funds), I'd start with LR simply due to that biodiversity. When I set up my first tank, finding all the critters and watching as my fishless, coralless tank evolved over the first 6 weeks was great! However, since the OP has shown a significant level of worry about pests, I'd just start with the BRS.

09/08/2014, 09:25 AM	#6
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Even that BRS dry rock is full of dried, dead organics that will take time to come out. It can have algae issues just like other dry rock. Also, at 2.49 a pound, you can get real live rock for nearly the same price. If you are paying more than $3-4 a pound for live rock by the box, then you are not negotiating well enough at the LFS. I just got 6 boxes for about $2.60 a pound - 3 boxes each of Tonga Fustion and Tukani.

09/08/2014, 09:57 AM	#7
Addiction Registered Member. Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Glen Ellyn, IL Posts: 54	I've read numerous threads about phosphate issues with dry rock. Even with the stuff that from BRS. It just seems crazy to buy that boring looking rock and battling phosphates for months. It also seems crazy to buy boring looking rock and having to cook it for months with multiple water changes and using phosphate removal products. Many people say to use a combo of both live and dry. But that seems even worse. Now you have phosphate issues and hitchhiker issues. I mentioned the concern of hitchhikers because if I went with live rock, I would want to get uncured type with the most life available on it and have it shipped airport to airport for the least amount of die off.

09/08/2014, 09:57 AM	#8
GroktheCube Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,063	People worry too much about hitchikers. Elevate the rock in rubbermaids with some flow, and toss some bait down in the bottom. Inspect for nasties, and remove them. FWIW, I'll be using mostly Marco Rock for my new 93 cube. It hasn't been leach much PO4 at all. Gave it a good vinegar bath, and had it in RO/DI for weeks. Virtually zero phosphate.

09/08/2014, 10:06 AM	#9
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	The tests can be somewhat misleading. The calcium carbonate can bind the phosphate for a while while in RO/DI. As levels in the tank start to want to drop naturally, the phosphate will leave the calcium carbonate and head into the tank. Also, the dead organics inside of the rock will take a long time to decompose and die. Lots and lots of people complain of issues with algae on rocks for years after using dry rock - some long, some shorter depending on other factors. Here is the bottom line for me: rock from the ocean typically has no dried/dead organics in it and the calcium carbonate is not full of bound phosphate. The dead junk in the dry rock will need to decompose and as it does, the calcium carbonate will bind some of the P and steadily release it over time - the rest will fuel the local algae on the rocks. People have made fun of me before, but I think that it takes 2 years for dry rock to act the same as good quality ocean rock.

09/08/2014, 10:07 AM	#10
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Also, a short soak in RO/DI won't develop the necessary bacteria to start to break down the dead organics inside of the rock... this takes much more time.

09/08/2014, 10:47 AM	#13
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Live rock is about $2 wholesale from SDC and the like.... more like $2.49 for tonga branch. The price gets cheaper with the more that you buy. Go to the LFS, buy it by the box and pick it up on the day that they get it - they just put the order on paper and it never touches their systems. Not every LFS might get this, but there will be one who give you a good price. How did the organics leave the ancient reef when the water receeded? What magic happened - we might be able to use this on our tanks today. The mined stuff is just like the lace rock that hit the hobby 10, or so, years ago. It still has organics loaded into it from back way-back-then that will decompose. The terrestrial stuff does have a benefit that it does not impact the current reefs with removal.

09/08/2014, 11:57 AM	#18
alton Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Zuehl, Texas Posts: 4,460	When I set up a 40 gallon for my jawfish I started with dead rock and sand, corals from my existing tanks thinking I was protected. After two years this tank had everything I tried keep out in it. From Aptaisia to bristle worms. I think sometimes the eggs of pest are everywhere? If I set up a new aquarium I would use this with a quick dip in Hydrogen Peroxide and then wait several months before adding animals and new coral. At least it would look nice versus boring dead. http://sealifeinc.net/catalog/produc...d797a3e338b5d5

09/08/2014, 05:43 PM	#19
PRSPLYR Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 91	Have you used that KPA live rock? Do you know if it is comparable to TBS rock? Seems like it would be given they are both Florida based....

09/09/2014, 12:31 PM	#21
DavidinGA Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 2,393	I used 250# of Marco Rocks in my 210gal and all I did was rinse the rock in tap water and toss it in. I'm a year and half down the road now and have NEVER had an algae issue what so ever! Excellent PO4 free rock IMO! I would avoid BRS pukani rock like the plague though....

09/09/2014, 01:36 PM	#23
d2mini Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 10,344	2 years in now with my TBS rock and nothing but a pleasure. Save for a couple mantis and crabs in the beginning, removed at my leisure. __________________ -dennis Elos Diamond 120xl \| Elos Stand \| Radion G4 Pros \| GHL Profilux Controller \| LifeReef Skimmer \| LifeReef Sump Photos taken with a Nikon D750 or Leica M.

09/09/2014, 01:45 PM	#24
JWClark Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: MD Posts: 576	Look at reef cleaners rock--I've not heard of any phosphate issues from their rock. Using it myself w/ no issues so far. Is about $1.90 per pound and is "professionally cleaned"--see website. I used 100lbs of this and added 90lbs of live aquaria rock during their last special--equated to about $3.15 per pound shipped. Have not seen any hitch hikers and pulled off a lot of macros such as Halimeda when I first received (it would die off during the cure anyway). Been up two weeks and some encrusting corals and other things are starting to come back to life. Much better than I expected for the price. Also, FWIW, have had my lights on for a few days now and still no sign of any nuisance algae--actually a little surprised.