Inverts (peppermint shrimp, emerald and porcelain crabs) dying off?

salajander · 09/16/2014, 03:59 PM

Over the last 6 weeks or so I've had a series of disappearances among my clean-up crew inverts.

I understand that the smaller inverts in a CUC (hermits and snails) tend to be pretty fungible, what with hermits fighting over shells and occasionally ambushing a snail. However, the disappearances have been of the larger livestock, which is a bit worrying.

1)
We started out with 4 peppermint shrimp back in March. They did great for ~4 months until around six weeks back, when one of them disappeared. Then, about 2 weeks back, another disappeared. No sign of bodies or anything, just disappeared. Only saw aggression between the peppermints once. Other than that they always tended to hang out together.

I wonder if it's murdering rivals after two of them paired up?

When I first had them, they were molting semi-regularly, but that's stopped lately as well.

2)
Also had 2 emerald crabs in the tank. Though they hide well, I always saw them both looking over the course of a day or two. First one disappeared a month or so after, then the other had its shell turn white(?) but hung around for a few more months, then went missing a few weeks back. There's definitely plenty of algae around the tank for them, but maybe they weren't able to eat the GHA?

3)
And we also had two porcelain crabs in the tank, added in April, about a month after the first CUC. They both seemed to be doing fine, but (again) first one disappeared, then another.

Throughout all this the rest of the CUC has been mostly fine (it's hard to count the hermits and snails, really), and the two scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp have been doing great.

Also the fish in the tank seem fine: 1 tailspot blenny and 3 small spotted cardinalfish.

I haven't seen any obvious signs of a predator (e.g. a hitchhiking mantis). There's a small infestation of bristleworms, but as far as I understand those will only eat slime/detritus.

The tank is a 55g display with a small sump, GFO reactor, skimmer, and refugium underneath. It's been running since Feb, cycled since March.

SG has been steady around 1.026, temp runs around 80-81. I tend to do weekly 5g changes.

NO3 was around 10-12 for the first few months, but it's been steadily declining, was down around 4ppm last I checked.

PO4 has been very low.

KH was steady-ish (7-8.4) for a long time, but something was sucking it up a bit more starting around 2 months back, and I've seen it as low as 5.4. Same for Ca (375-435 for a long time, down around 350 lately).

Does anyone have any hints or suggestions?

salajander · 09/16/2014, 04:00 PM

Just remembered I have a copper test kit at home - I'll try to run that tonight just to check. My water source is RO/DI, though, so I don't think that's likely.

cherubfish pair · 09/16/2014, 05:24 PM

Hitchhiker mantis shrimp?

fishgate · 09/16/2014, 05:27 PM

Could be a rouge hermit. I had one in my tank, now in the sump.

Aquarist007 · 09/16/2014, 05:31 PM

Peppermints could have starved. People usually put them in there to take care of aptasia and once the food source is gone they die off
Are you feeding any mysis to the tank

Dan_P · 09/16/2014, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

Peppermints could have starved. People usually put them in there to take care of aptasia and once the food source is gone they die off
Are you feeding any mysis to the tank

Good idea.

I often wonder how well we are looking after nutritional needs of clean up crew? Having them scrounge for a meal in aquariums we work hard to keep clean might qualify as a starvation diet for these poor creatures.

We might need to start a campaign "Feed the Clean Up Crew"

overskim · 09/17/2014, 12:26 AM

I have a couple of questions. What salt mix are you using? Also how religiously have you been doing water changes? Are you using any supplements?

I ask because everything seems like a molting issue. Only adding a tiny amount of trace elements every week could be tricking the creatures into thinking now is the time to molt. Before they harden off they run out which leaves them susceptible. You also seem to have a lot of creatures who all need the same trace elements at the same time.

A quick suggestion is switch to a salt like Reef Crystals, do larger water changes, and try again. I personally think IO has it right when they say 20% water changes. I realize I am leaving a void in my answer, but I believe all of your inverts are on their way out. The things that are left don't molt as regularly. And I assume each small water change you may in fact have less inverts for the reason above.

salajander · 09/17/2014, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overskim

I have a couple of questions. What salt mix are you using? Also how religiously have you been doing water changes? Are you using any supplements?

I've been using regular Instant Ocean from the start. I've been pretty regular with the weekly 5g changes, as I've been fighting a bit of cyano. Have had a few 10g and 15g changes here and there, as well.

Not adding any supplements regularly. I've dosed for KH (with baking powder) and Ca/Mg (with seachem reef advance) a couple of times.

Quote:

I ask because everything seems like a molting issue. Only adding a tiny amount of trace elements every week could be tricking the creatures into thinking now is the time to molt. Before they harden off they run out which leaves them susceptible. You also seem to have a lot of creatures who all need the same trace elements at the same time.

Of the four peppermints that were in the tank until they started going missing, I remember 4 different molts, maybe 5, over 3 months or so. It didn't seem excessive, at least from what I've read.

Quote:

A quick suggestion is switch to a salt like Reef Crystals, do larger water changes, and try again. I personally think IO has it right when they say 20% water changes. I realize I am leaving a void in my answer, but I believe all of your inverts are on their way out. The things that are left don't molt as regularly. And I assume each small water change you may in fact have less inverts for the reason above.

I was planning on switching to Reef Crystals after this batch of IO runs out, as I want to get the tank ready for some corals (right now it's just 4 small fish and the inverts, and some palys that were on the LR).

salajander · 09/17/2014, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherubfish pair

Hitchhiker mantis shrimp?

Apart from tracking the murder/disappearance rate, how would I find if I had one?

salajander · 09/17/2014, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

Peppermints could have starved. People usually put them in there to take care of aptasia and once the food source is gone they die off
Are you feeding any mysis to the tank

I've been feeding mysis irregularly (1-2x week), mostly to keep the cardinals happy. (They eat the flake food pretty well.)

I started having a cyano outbreak around 3 months back, so I'm wary of overfeeding, but perhaps you're right? Though it does seem like there's more food than the fish eat, maybe that's not quite enough for the inverts.

Aquarist007 · 09/17/2014, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salajander

I've been feeding mysis irregularly (1-2x week), mostly to keep the cardinals happy. (They eat the flake food pretty well.)

I started having a cyano outbreak around 3 months back, so I'm wary of overfeeding, but perhaps you're right? Though it does seem like there's more food than the fish eat, maybe that's not quite enough for the inverts.

Generally speaking cyano can be related to phosphate levels. Flake food contains a lot more phosphates and nitrates then raw sea food( the lowest) and mysis.
I feed nothing but mysis and raw sea food to my fish. For herbivores strictly I clip a kelp sheet to the inside of the tank.

As far as water changes I believe in 2 percent daily which is very easy to do . I dose essential elements.. Very inexpensive too
Large water changes can alter your chemical equilibrium and take out useful bacteria

outssider · 09/17/2014, 05:23 PM

"I've dosed for KH (with baking powder)"

Baking powder is for cooking. what you want to use is baking soda. 5.4 dkh is too low !

salajander · 09/17/2014, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outssider

"I've dosed for KH (with baking powder)"

Baking powder is for cooking. what you want to use is baking soda. 5.4 dkh is too low !

Er, yeah, I used baking soda, not powder.

overskim · 09/17/2014, 11:08 PM

Sounds good! My changes are irregular too, I just think is is important to flush a lot of the water every so often. My big changes are usually when the alk needs to go up when a water change is going to happen. Your initial molting sounds like mine when things are going well. My shrimp usually release larvae, molt, and are out the next day about every 3 to 4 weeks.

Good Luck!

09/16/2014, 03:59 PM	#1
salajander Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Jersey City, NJ Posts: 343	Inverts (peppermint shrimp, emerald and porcelain crabs) dying off? Over the last 6 weeks or so I've had a series of disappearances among my clean-up crew inverts. I understand that the smaller inverts in a CUC (hermits and snails) tend to be pretty fungible, what with hermits fighting over shells and occasionally ambushing a snail. However, the disappearances have been of the larger livestock, which is a bit worrying. 1) We started out with 4 peppermint shrimp back in March. They did great for ~4 months until around six weeks back, when one of them disappeared. Then, about 2 weeks back, another disappeared. No sign of bodies or anything, just disappeared. Only saw aggression between the peppermints once. Other than that they always tended to hang out together. I wonder if it's murdering rivals after two of them paired up? When I first had them, they were molting semi-regularly, but that's stopped lately as well. 2) Also had 2 emerald crabs in the tank. Though they hide well, I always saw them both looking over the course of a day or two. First one disappeared a month or so after, then the other had its shell turn white(?) but hung around for a few more months, then went missing a few weeks back. There's definitely plenty of algae around the tank for them, but maybe they weren't able to eat the GHA? 3) And we also had two porcelain crabs in the tank, added in April, about a month after the first CUC. They both seemed to be doing fine, but (again) first one disappeared, then another. Throughout all this the rest of the CUC has been mostly fine (it's hard to count the hermits and snails, really), and the two scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp have been doing great. Also the fish in the tank seem fine: 1 tailspot blenny and 3 small spotted cardinalfish. I haven't seen any obvious signs of a predator (e.g. a hitchhiking mantis). There's a small infestation of bristleworms, but as far as I understand those will only eat slime/detritus. The tank is a 55g display with a small sump, GFO reactor, skimmer, and refugium underneath. It's been running since Feb, cycled since March. SG has been steady around 1.026, temp runs around 80-81. I tend to do weekly 5g changes. NO3 was around 10-12 for the first few months, but it's been steadily declining, was down around 4ppm last I checked. PO4 has been very low. KH was steady-ish (7-8.4) for a long time, but something was sucking it up a bit more starting around 2 months back, and I've seen it as low as 5.4. Same for Ca (375-435 for a long time, down around 350 lately). Does anyone have any hints or suggestions?

09/16/2014, 05:24 PM	#3
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	Hitchhiker mantis shrimp? __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless

09/16/2014, 05:27 PM	#4
fishgate Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Damascus, MD Posts: 3,340	Could be a rouge hermit. I had one in my tank, now in the sump. __________________ 125RR in-wall, 40B Sump, CS180 BM Skimmer, ATI 4x80 watt, eheim 1262, custom wrap around rock wall, ReefKeeper Elite 120g in-wall, 40B Sump, PC 54wx4, Jabao DC-6000 (full siphon), future seahorse t Current Tank Info: 125g, 120g, 2x40b sumps, ATI 4x80 T5HO

09/16/2014, 05:31 PM	#5
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	Peppermints could have starved. People usually put them in there to take care of aptasia and once the food source is gone they die off Are you feeding any mysis to the tank __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

09/16/2014, 04:00 PM	#2
salajander Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Jersey City, NJ Posts: 343	Just remembered I have a copper test kit at home - I'll try to run that tonight just to check. My water source is RO/DI, though, so I don't think that's likely.

09/17/2014, 12:26 AM	#7
overskim Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 65	I have a couple of questions. What salt mix are you using? Also how religiously have you been doing water changes? Are you using any supplements? I ask because everything seems like a molting issue. Only adding a tiny amount of trace elements every week could be tricking the creatures into thinking now is the time to molt. Before they harden off they run out which leaves them susceptible. You also seem to have a lot of creatures who all need the same trace elements at the same time. A quick suggestion is switch to a salt like Reef Crystals, do larger water changes, and try again. I personally think IO has it right when they say 20% water changes. I realize I am leaving a void in my answer, but I believe all of your inverts are on their way out. The things that are left don't molt as regularly. And I assume each small water change you may in fact have less inverts for the reason above.

09/17/2014, 05:23 PM	#12
outssider Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Reseda, Ca. Posts: 1,717	"I've dosed for KH (with baking powder)" Baking powder is for cooking. what you want to use is baking soda. 5.4 dkh is too low !

09/17/2014, 11:08 PM	#14
overskim Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 65	Sounds good! My changes are irregular too, I just think is is important to flush a lot of the water every so often. My big changes are usually when the alk needs to go up when a water change is going to happen. Your initial molting sounds like mine when things are going well. My shrimp usually release larvae, molt, and are out the next day about every 3 to 4 weeks. Good Luck!