Water Change debate... Are they really required?

[scottduncan1234]

Hello all, Just digging into it with a friend on mine.

Wanted to get different opinions on this.

If you tank filtration is running efficiently and you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and consistently 0 or maybe 1 nitrate, 0 phosphates, calcium and magnesium are high in range is there a need to do a PWC based on schedule alone (weekly/bi-weekly). I have calculated that for my 160 a 10% PWC will consume 14 cups of salt per week / 42 gallons of salt per year.

I am being told regardless of water conditions that I should be doing this weekly water change. My argument is that I dose cal/mag and trace elements based on when cal. and ph decrease which is about every 15 days.

I see a drop in ph 8.2 to 7.9, I then mix up 20 grams of red sea coral foundation and coral colors and slowly add that back to the system over the next few days and the ph, cal, mag and kh are back up within a few days and good for another 15 days.

I have friends who have used an algae scrubber and have crazy filtration where they rarely ever do water changes, I have also seen people use bio-pellets, carbon or vodka dose go long periods without water changes.

My biggest argument is that I don't see why I need to take water out of the system that test good to replace with water that test good...?

This is a friendly debate and not recommending to anyone that the stop water changes, just looking for input on both sides.

[gone fishin]

There are multiple threads on this topic. The arguments have not really changed much over the years. Good luck on whatever you decide.

[twon8]

You really should be dosing based on alkalinity and calcium levels, not ph.
Water changes are one method of exporting nutrients and supplementing. They aren't required but they certainly benefit your tank

[Sk8r]

Your program will probably do quite well. OTOH, people who were doing what you're doing found over all that they succeeded better by doing the water changes instead. So you're doing ok, and many a tank has hit a period in an owner's life when they have to let it go a bit (usually followed by a period of remediation and cleanup of accumulated problems), but you might find as others have, that the changes do better.longterm.

[SGT_York]

Needed weekly no, but you need periodic changes to add fresh trace minerals to your water, think of it like a salt change not a water change. When I have let it go my snails stopped laying eggs, the shrimp stopped molting, and polyps shrunk. Did a water change and a few weeks later they started again. probably low iodine or some other mineral/element I didn't test for. So you can procrastinate and let it go for a while, but that is when problems start creeping up. The higher your bioload the faster the trace minerals are gone. So I wouldn't recommend neglecting it too badly.

[Dan_P]

I call water changes a leap of faith. You select your ritual that you are comfortable with and don't look back. A lot of anecdotal data can be found to support your metaphysical position.

There does not seem to be any arguement about how best to maintain ions of known importance that can be measured. Where faith comes in is judging how quickly "toxins", heavy metals and dissolved organic material accumuate. It seems, based on current water change protocol, all this uncertainty is cured with 10-30% water changes once per week to once per month. Or maybe it does not or maybe it is over kill.

I don't believe we have really looked hard enough at water changes in light of how we maintain aquariums these days. Water changes may still be important or they may now be useless holdovers from the good old days.

I like the notion of water changes but I am still deciding whether my act of faith will follow the notion of continuous water changes of 100% over a month or two, the only protocol that makes sense if you are trying to create a stable system.

[Raul-7]

Not sure why SW would be any different to FW [except for the fact that SW costs more per gallon], but WC's are essential to remove all the pollutants that you cannot measure for with a test kit.

[Jeff210]

I look at it this way - the water essentially 'changes' twice a day on reefs when the tide comes in and goes out. Is it replacing 'good' water with more 'good' water, probably. But the bottom line is it IS changing...

Since I am trying to replicate an infinitesimally small chunk of ocean in my little glass box - I do water changes (not twice a day by any means but twice a month)...

When I get it automated, I will change out a gallon or 2 a day in my 210G. This, combined with evaporation and ATO replenishment will be as close as I am going to be able to get to natural cycles...

[CuzzA]

With so much time and money invested is it worth it to take the risk? That's up to the individual. I'll be damned if I spent thousands of dollars only to have my tank crash from something as simple as a water change that could be almost completely automated anyways with all of the newer technology.

I know not all of us are striving for a tank of the month, some people don't mind the weeds in the garden look, but show me a tank of the month that doesn't perform regular water changes. And even if you found "one" that would make up a small percentage of the total of those that do.

I believe the biggest problem is knowing exactly what trace elements and how much to dose for the needs of your inhabitants. Then the second problem is the build of DOC's.

[Jeff210]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

water change that could be almost completely automated anyways with all of the newer technology.

I can't wait til I can get my hands on a Genesis Renew. They are out of stock at the moment and one of their parts suppliers went out of business so they are looking for a new supplier. Then they have to test the new supplier's part in their system for QC. They don't expect to have them back in stock until 1Q 2015...

Til then I'll keep dragging the hoses out...

[downbeach]

Here is some worthwhile reading on the subject:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/short
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/10/aaeditorial
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water.htm
http://www.reefs.org/library/article...htbill_wc.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/watchgantart.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/scottsh2ochgart.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009...ture#section-8

If you've read these articles, you can see that, although there may be differing philosophies on the amount and freqency of doing WC's, they all agree that they are an important component in the health and success of your system.
You might want to double check your math, most salt mixes will call for about 1/2 cup per gallon depending on the SG you want. So if you're doing a 16 gal. (10%) weekly WC you're using ~ 8 - 9 cups per week depending on SG.

Here is some additional reading that would be worth adding to your favorites/bookmarking for ongoing reference:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-09/rhf/index.php

[Vilas]

My philosophy is pretty simple: the ocean can do it a million times better than we ever could. Nature knows how to do its job. We are trying to replicate ocean conditions in our mini oceans, right? We know all about calcium and magnesium and whatnot, but I would find it hard to believe that we know every minute nuance of seawater. In ten years, maybe we will all be supplementing with, I don't know, cocoa powder to try to replicate some new discovery on what goes on in the ocean.

What we can do it use the seawater - dried or otherwise - and keep nature's balance in our tanks as much as we can.

Nature also has ways of dissipating and using nutrients and toxins that are much more efficient than a protein skimmer and a bag of carbon tucked away somewhere.

Yes, people get away with it. Maybe if I were to replicate their tank down to the very bacteria and specific corals and rocks, I would too. But why would I risk my tank's health for that hope? I prefer to just let the system that has been perfected - seawater and the ecosystem - do its job.

[tmz]

The issue has been debated ad nauseum.
Bottom lime :IMO:

small frequent water changes add and subtract ions that are out of balance( in excess or paucity) including major, minor and trace elements and pull the system toward natural ionic ratios. Supplements for everything is virtually impossible given the limits of hobby grade testing: artificial saltwater mixes do a good job at it. There really is nothing wrong with H2O. Those who avoid H2O just use the supplements they can approximate and in some cases sell and ignore those that are beyond their reach and ignore the fact that excess elements are likely building up without any export;

water changes also export some organics ,some of which maybe harmful as they build up over time;

water changes also export some dissolved nitrogen and inorganic phosphate though these effects are small with small changes and short lived even with large ones if import and export for the system via feeding etc are unchanged.

FWIW, I prefer 1% per day daily water changes for constancy in my mixed reef tanks. I supplement only calcium and alk via lime water( kalk).rarely tweak magnesium. The rest is covered nicely with water changes and foods.They have been flourishing for over 7 years .

[Mrramsey]

I think they are certainly necessary however the degree of frequency and amount are going to vary a lot. My tank's capacity is 150g and I do a 10% WC about every 6 weeks. That being said I have a dozen corals, a couple crabs, 25 snails, 3 fish and 3 anemones. It is a fairly light load.

[Sk8r]

Why saltwater is different from freshwater is very simple: read your salt mix ingredients list and see what else is added that you would need an immense array of jars and bottles to supply, and an array of tests to test. Micronutrients are tricky and occasionally dangerous to dose by hand, but in a program of water changes, they do get replaced in good proportion.

If you do not do water changes, it might be a good idea once a year and perhaps twice to do a 'rolling water change', ie, do a 20%, wait a day, do a 20%, wait a day, do a 20%. And maybe one more. It's not a bad assist for a tank that has started to get 'old tank syndrome', meaning largely, I suspect, that little doses have piled up or gotten short in supply.

[Reef Frog]

The value of detrius removal alone makes semi regular water changes worth the time & effort for me. Of course one can vacuum/siphon the tank and run the exit water through a sock or filter continuously, trapping & removing debris that way instead, and therefore accomplishing the same thing without actually changing any water. But the time and effort involved are about the same as a traditional WC.

Also, once I understood how brand new organic metabolites can form from existing compounds in an aquarium over time, it seemed logical that water changes were probably beneficial. As noted above, it also seems to be a way of mimicking the ocean's vast potential to dilute toxins. Yes this may be faith based as I can't say for certain what metabolites, undesirable or not, are actually forming over time however.

In general, many of the animals in the tank seem to "perk up" a bit after a water change - for example shrimp will often molt right after a WC. Since my tank has done well with semi regular WCs over 4+ years, I don't see the need to change now. I've never heard of an event where reasonably sized WCs actually hurt a SW aquarium after all....

[coralsnaked]

Not a one of these suggestions are an absolute. Every tank runs differently, is stocked differently and has different needs.

For a novice who is not yet having a full love on with their tank...do regular 20% total per month water changes to keep yourself out of trouble.

For an experienced reefaholic who knows each fish and invert intimately...then do what works for your system. Not a one of my tanks is on the same schedule. I recently crashed my nano Jelly by doing a water change...touchy very touchy lil' system. Had a special little guy in there i'll probably never be able to replace.

[Reef Frog]

I heartily agree that no two systems are the same, and there are many different methods to achieve success.

Wow, a 1g jellyfish tank! That sounds difficult under any circumstances.

[Sk8r]

Any way that works---my own current program, being winter, with a cold basement, is daily 'water changes.' I dip up a gallon of salt water from my tank, discard into the basement drain, dip up a gallon of new salt water from a barrel, dump it in the pump chamber (avoiding my fuge) and this way I'll effect a 30% water change, (allowing that it's a bit less than that) over a month. Tank's not complaining. The micronutrients are arriving. All's well.

[alf1096]

I used to do 5 gal a week changes in my 65 because it was easy to do with a bucket. Now that I have updraded to a 125 I am gonna try a 30 gallon once a month wc.

[treliantf]

Guess what? I have a fish only tank and I do annual water change and I successfully keep my blueface (my avatar) for more than 10 years, still going strong. Of course reef is different and for that I just not bother to get into reef.

[OceanRevive]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Any way that works---my own current program, being winter, with a cold basement, is daily 'water changes.' I dip up a gallon of salt water from my tank, discard into the basement drain, dip up a gallon of new salt water from a barrel, dump it in the pump chamber (avoiding my fuge) and this way I'll effect a 30% water change, (allowing that it's a bit less than that) over a month. Tank's not complaining. The micronutrients are arriving. All's well.

I am doing the same way using the dosing pumps. but to be honest, i don't see the difference between the daily change, and weekly change.

[Azedenkae]

The answer to this is simple.

No, they are not needed. But you'll be doing so many things instead that it is not worth it.

[MBK]

I think your tank will reach some sort of equilibrium depending on your husbandry. When it finds this equilibrium, some things will thrive and some things will not.

[Raul-7]

It's a closed system; I don't see how it's an option not to change the water.