Did you skim during cycling?

[joem1cha3l]

Just set up my new tank. I got some fresh uncured rock today to the LFS. I also bought a skimmer and plan to skim/water change during the cycle. What'd you guys do?

[SGT_York]

For uncured I skim, cured I generally wait. It will shorten your cycle if you skim, but will result in less beneficial bacteria as well. If you do skim, don't add fish as soon as your ammonia/nitrite hits zero. The system can barely keep up with just the LR adding more fish will start a second round of ammonia. Either way go slow.

[jason2459]

I would just start skimming and getting your skimmer broken in at the same time. Start it low and very slowly work the water level in the skimmer higher. It wont actually be skimming anything at first. By the time you're ready to add fish the skimmer will be broken in and ready.

[CoralsAddiction]

Originally Posted by jason2459

I would just start skimming and getting your skimmer broken in at the same time. Start it low and very slowly work the water level in the skimmer higher. It wont actually be skimming anything at first. By the time you're ready to add fish the skimmer will be broken in and ready.

+1. I would do the same.

[Azedenkae]

I wouldn't skim during the cycle, regardless. As SGT York, skimming during a cycle will prevent bacteria from building up quickly, or enough even. So by the time you start adding fish, your biological filtration system may not be able to withstand the bioload.

I would much rather cycle properly from the getgo and properly establish your biological filter media, rather than be hasty. Remember, haste gets you nowhere.

I would leave the skimming until after the cycle is done, rather than mess with all it initially. You can always break-in your skimmer later, even when you've gotten fish. But once you have your skimmer up, it's a mess if you want to increase the tank's biological filtrative capacity. It's either an unnecessarily slow and painful process where your bacteria is just slowly being provided sustenance (anything that bypasses the skimmer), or you'd have to turn down/off your skimmer anyways, and then turn it on again.

Plus, it is dangerous for your livestock. If all else fails, your biological filtration system is the only one that may still be working to protect your livestock.

[jason2459]

A skimmer isn't that efficient. Bacteria is going to grow and establish regardless of skimming or not. I would rather take that time to let my skimmer break in.

[Azedenkae]

Originally Posted by jason2459

A skimmer isn't that efficient. Bacteria is going to grow and establish regardless of skimming or not. I would rather take that time to let my skimmer break in.

If a skimmer isn't that efficient then it is kind of pointless.

If either:

a.) The skimmer is not efficient enough to remove organics from the water (which it should be doing), that plenty are passing through, then that means you need to get a better skimmer. After all, what's the point if it's not really contributing to the filtrative capability of the aquarium? If it won't affect the cycle, it won't have an effect on the tank later on either.
b.) The skimmer is efficient enough, then it is removing organics. During the cycle (or 'bacterial propagation phase' as I prefer), you want plenty of organics to feed your bacteria. A skimmer removing much of it out is removing nutrients to grow bacteria. Which will mean less bacteria, and therefore your biological filtration system isn't as good as it can be.

[jason2459]

No a skimmer is not a very efficient means of filtration but does help. It also provides some oxygenation.

Actively skimming or not won't make a difference. Bacteria is very efficient at growing even if you don't seed the tank. So don't mater to me. It's just what I would do and I also mentioned to not actively skim at first and slowly raise the water level up in the skimmer over time.

[skey44]

Always skim

[Azedenkae]

Originally Posted by jason2459

No a skimmer is not a very efficient means of filtration but does help. It also provides some oxygenation.

Actively skimming or not won't make a difference. Bacteria is very efficient at growing even if you don't seed the tank. So don't mater to me. It's just what I would do and I also mentioned to not actively skim at first and slowly raise the water level up in the skimmer over time.

Then why bother with a skimmer lol. I mean if the skimmer can really only provide oxygenation and not really help with the filtration, then well, it is kinda pointless. Oxygen/air can be provided by plenty of other means, and a straight up air pump with an airline it would undoubtly be more efficient. I haven't really ever bother with a skimmer (as I never needed to investigate and use one) but if skimmers really are useless enough that they don't skim out much organics, then I would suggest not getting a skimmer at all then.

[ca1ore]

A few observations:

1. I always run my skimmer during the tank cycling process. Maybe it shortens the cycle, maybe it means lower bacterial capacity .... maybe not. By removing some of the crud, I find I start out with lower nitrate levels. Plus, you should be adding animals slowly, giving the bacterial filter plenty of time to catch up.

2. Skimmer does what it does - it removes about a third of the organics that would otherwise become nitrates and phosphates. Maybe that makes it 'inefficient', but I'd not run a tank without one.

3. Unless you have major circulation issues in your tank, a skimmer is unlikely to do all that much for oxygenation because it's a sealed cylinder (I used to run a DO probe on my reef tank and found no difference running skimmer versus not). In the old days, airstones did not diffuse oxygen into the water, they simply acted as a form of circulation to help bring water into contact with the air at the tanks surface.

[dosdiverz]

What type of skimmer are you going to run? I ran mine during my first tank cycle and I didn't have any huge problems. I like the idea of getting the skimmer broken in too. It took mine a long time to get seasoned.

[Azedenkae]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

A few observations:

1. I always run my skimmer during the tank cycling process. Maybe it shortens the cycle, maybe it means lower bacterial capacity .... maybe not. By removing some of the crud, I find I start out with lower nitrate levels. Plus, you should be adding animals slowly, giving the bacterial filter plenty of time to catch up.

2. Skimmer does what it does - it removes about a third of the organics that would otherwise become nitrates and phosphates. Maybe that makes it 'inefficient', but I'd not run a tank without one.

3. Unless you have major circulation issues in your tank, a skimmer is unlikely to do all that much for oxygenation because it's a sealed cylinder (I used to run a DO probe on my reef tank and found no difference running skimmer versus not). In the old days, airstones did not diffuse oxygen into the water, they simply acted as a form of circulation to help bring water into contact with the air at the tanks surface.

Well see, I agree with what you say about skimmers, and that's actually why I don't recommend running skimmers during the cycle. If you cycle and then have to wait to grow more bacteria regardless, then in my books that isn't a good cycle. If one cycles properly, one don't have to grow bacteria afterwards. And that's of utmost importance. I disagree with people hurrying and trying to add live stock BEFORE their biological filtration system is ready. The biological filtration system should be completely ready to deal with a large live stock, before addition. That way, you'd have the bacterial population there already, as opposed to trying to grow it later on.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by Azedenkae

Well see, I agree with what you say about skimmers, and that's actually why I don't recommend running skimmers during the cycle. If you cycle and then have to wait to grow more bacteria regardless, then in my books that isn't a good cycle. If one cycles properly, one don't have to grow bacteria afterwards. And that's of utmost importance. I disagree with people hurrying and trying to add live stock BEFORE their biological filtration system is ready. The biological filtration system should be completely ready to deal with a large live stock, before addition. That way, you'd have the bacterial population there already, as opposed to trying to grow it later on.

If you really think about it, that doesn't actually make any sense. The reality is that the biological filter is adapting continuously to the biology. No matter how 'robust' you believe your cycling process to be, the filter will adjust its capacity to the animals initially contained therein. If, subsequently, you add more fish, for example, the filter will have to catch up. Fortunately in a cycled tank this would appear to happen quite quickly because I have never detected ammonia in any of my setups. Plus how can you possibly know what the capacity is of a biological filter upon completion of the cycle - beyond trial and error? Quickly adding a 'large livestock' initially is a bad idea; and if you do it slowly, the bio filter will have long since adjusted down from the cycle.

Personally, I'd prefer to get a head start on manageable nitrates; but as with all things reefing, do what makes sense to you.

[jason2459]

Ok, I'm not saying what so ever to rush anything or add anything before the tank is ready.

Growing bacteria is as easy as adding water and waiting.

A skimmer isn't very effective at either filtration or aeration but they do assist in both. Why run one then? Because they are an easy tool to use. Some people have done just fine with out one. Some have done great with canaster filters, under gravel filters, bio pellets, algae harvesting, gac, gfo, filter socks, wet dry, algae turf scrubbers, ozone, uv, water changes, etc etc. So yes, there are many means to an end.

A skimmer is not going to kill your cycle but it can help you break it in and get used to how to adjust it especially if you are new to one. With or with out a skimmer as soon as you add something like a fish your bacterial count will grow. Yes, be patient and go slow.

[Azedenkae]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

If you really think about it, that doesn't actually make any sense. The reality is that the biological filter is adapting continuously to the biology. No matter how 'robust' you believe your cycling process to be, the filter will adjust its capacity to the animals initially contained therein. If, subsequently, you add more fish, for example, the filter will have to catch up. Fortunately in a cycled tank this would appear to happen quite quickly because I have never detected ammonia in any of my setups. Plus how can you possibly know what the capacity is of a biological filter upon completion of the cycle - beyond trial and error? Quickly adding a 'large livestock' initially is a bad idea; and if you do it slowly, the bio filter will have long since adjusted down from the cycle.

Personally, I'd prefer to get a head start on manageable nitrates; but as with all things reefing, do what makes sense to you.

Au contraire, it is quite simply. You see, you are right in that it adapts to changes. However, the thing here is it doesn't just adapt to whatever animals or organisms you add in, it adapts to pretty much anything you do to the tank, and that includes feeding it.

So to stimulate all those animals in the aquarium, all you have to do is add food in as if feeding your animals. That will promote the growth of bacteria.

In fact, I tend to 'overfeed' when cycling, to really promote the growth. So by the time I add live stock, the biological filtration system would already be used to a large amount of organics in the tank, be it from what I feed, or from excretion from the live stock (which comes from what I feed them anyways).

So yes, the biological filtration system has to adapt. But you can get that to happen with any sort of organic, and that can come from food added before live stock being added. Doesn't have to necessarily be the live stock themselves.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by Azedenkae

Au contraire, it is quite simply. You see, you are right in that it adapts to changes. However, the thing here is it doesn't just adapt to whatever animals or organisms you add in, it adapts to pretty much anything you do to the tank, and that includes feeding it.

So to stimulate all those animals in the aquarium, all you have to do is add food in as if feeding your animals. That will promote the growth of bacteria.

In fact, I tend to 'overfeed' when cycling, to really promote the growth. So by the time I add live stock, the biological filtration system would already be used to a large amount of organics in the tank, be it from what I feed, or from excretion from the live stock (which comes from what I feed them anyways).

So yes, the biological filtration system has to adapt. But you can get that to happen with any sort of organic, and that can come from food added before live stock being added. Doesn't have to necessarily be the live stock themselves.

Hmmmn .... Look you do what you do and how you want, just seems like some questionable practices. Ghost feeding a tank is an accepted way to maintain a bio filter, but to overfeed an cycling tank to prepare the filter for subsequent additions seems unnecessary since the bio filter will easily adapt post addition. Unless, of course, one plans a massive, simultaneous addition of livestock. If that's the case .... well anyone who thinks that is a good idea will fortunately not be long for the hobby.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Hmmmn .... Look you do what you do and how you want, just seems like some questionable practices. Ghost feeding a tank is an accepted way to maintain a bio filter, but to overfeed an cycling tank to prepare the filter for subsequent additions seems unnecessary since the bio filter will easily adapt post addition. Unless, of course, one plans a massive, simultaneous addition of livestock. If that's the case .... well anyone who thinks that is a good idea will fortunately not be long for the hobby.

Agreed. To each their own here I guess.

[Azedenkae]

Yeah, to each their own I guess.

Ca1lore, that's how I always do it, and it's working for me so well, I dunno how it'd be fortunate or that it won't be long, but I am still around.

Even if that is not the plan, I find that preparing FOR an addition is always better than having that addition, and THEN let things catch up.

But well, I guess to each their own. I am not saying that somehow, someway, having a skimmer on during cycling, or not growing plenty of bacteria initially will not allow you to have a good, running tank. It is just counter-intuitive to me. Why play catch up and put yourself through pain when there's an easier way? But anyways yeah, to each their own.

[gone fishin]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

A few observations:

1. I always run my skimmer during the tank cycling process. Maybe it shortens the cycle, maybe it means lower bacterial capacity .... maybe not. By removing some of the crud, I find I start out with lower nitrate levels. Plus, you should be adding animals slowly, giving the bacterial filter plenty of time to catch up.

2. Skimmer does what it does - it removes about a third of the organics that would otherwise become nitrates and phosphates. Maybe that makes it 'inefficient', but I'd not run a tank without one.

3. Unless you have major circulation issues in your tank, a skimmer is unlikely to do all that much for oxygenation because it's a sealed cylinder (I used to run a DO probe on my reef tank and found no difference running skimmer versus not). In the old days, airstones did not diffuse oxygen into the water, they simply acted as a form of circulation to help bring water into contact with the air at the tanks surface.

I agree and do not do WC until you are done cycling.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by Azedenkae

Yeah, to each their own I guess.

Ca1lore, that's how I always do it, and it's working for me so well, I dunno how it'd be fortunate or that it won't be long, but I am still around.

Even if that is not the plan, I find that preparing FOR an addition is always better than having that addition, and THEN let things catch up.

But well, I guess to each their own. I am not saying that somehow, someway, having a skimmer on during cycling, or not growing plenty of bacteria initially will not allow you to have a good, running tank. It is just counter-intuitive to me. Why play catch up and put yourself through pain when there's an easier way? But anyways yeah, to each their own.

Fair enough, and probably in the longer run makes little difference one way or the other. Since I QT all fish, I'm rarely in the position of adding more than a few fish to my tank at any one time so catch up has worked for me.

[pyithar]

no i didn't skim during cycling simply becuase i didn't have one i don't plan to skim during cycling in the future either. why? because i don't think it's necessary. there're plenty of controversial issues in this reef keeping hobby. so sometimes, i just do what i think is right, or what works best with my situation. but if it doesn't work out, i do the other way.

[rgulrich]

How about treating the live rock as if it's, um "alive"? Strangely enough, when I did that and kicked in the entire filter system (yes, skimmer, Polyfilter, carbon, and particulate), not only did I not have much die off (if any) from the "curing process", I managed to keep the palys, many sponges, corals (yep, even had some coral chips sneak in), and even a few hefty chiton and other snails on my Tonga rock eight years ago. And many are a bit larger now, still with me to this day.

Run your filters - if nothing else pretend like you're checking you plumbing and not really filtering the new reef you're building. Change 10, 20, 30 percent or more water for a few days - you can call it practice for down the road when have to do it "for real". Change out the filter carbon after a couple days (how much did you pay for your live rock? carbon is cheap in comparison) and the Polyfilter when it changes to a brown. But at least try treating the live rock like its a bit more than a simple bacteria farm, or soon that will be all it is.

Cheers,
Ray

[Azedenkae]

Originally Posted by rgulrich

How about treating the live rock as if it's, um "alive"? Strangely enough, when I did that and kicked in the entire filter system (yes, skimmer, Polyfilter, carbon, and particulate), not only did I not have much die off (if any) from the "curing process", I managed to keep the palys, many sponges, corals (yep, even had some coral chips sneak in), and even a few hefty chiton and other snails on my Tonga rock eight years ago. And many are a bit larger now, still with me to this day.

Run your filters - if nothing else pretend like you're checking you plumbing and not really filtering the new reef you're building. Change 10, 20, 30 percent or more water for a few days - you can call it practice for down the road when have to do it "for real". Change out the filter carbon after a couple days (how much did you pay for your live rock? carbon is cheap in comparison) and the Polyfilter when it changes to a brown. But at least try treating the live rock like its a bit more than a simple bacteria farm, or soon that will be all it is.

Cheers,
Ray

That is definitely true, when you have live rock full of life, it may and is worthwhile to try to save as much of it as possible, in which case there is no choice but to get EVERYTHING running and hoping for the best.

The OP's situation is rather different though. I think. Actually I am not sure. OP, what type of rock did you get specifically? Fresh uncured rock doesn't mean too much. Is it live rock? Or dead rock? Is there a lot of life on there? Or nothing?

[Wazzel]

I run my skimmer, do water changes etc just like it was a stocked tank. Not sure if you gain anything by just leaving it the entire time. I suspect running the skimmer and doing water changes will speed up the cycle. Also, if it gets nasty enough you will start killing off the critters.