Toxins in water / Abstract logic

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

When people claim they do water changes to remove toxins, how do they accurately decipher what toxins become present in the water column from their actual testing (if they even test for specific toxins) and how do they calculate these toxins' respective PPM and what levels of those particular toxins' PPM become toxic to marine life/corals?

It just seems people throw the word "TOXIN" around (sort of like Christians claiming everything as a SIN huh?) like they know what exactly is in the water (through repetition of word, the truth is found?) , but i am fearing most are just regurgitating what they heard / were taught / told others and are now just sticking to it as a truth for the need to do things (like voting in the United States, or religious cults following a particular mind set lol). Its ok to accept being wrong, especially something as complex as Marine Water Science Chemistry. I just want to understand where the foundation evidence is that proves they are in fact removing toxins, and not just taking water out for the hell of it.

Are there alternatives to removing these toxins biologically versus water changes since water changes change the water chemistry percentage wise?

also can they exactly prove that these toxins were not presented into the water by they themselves versus the toxins accumulating due to the bio load in the tank from the tank inhabitants?

Nitrate is also too obvious to claim as a toxin for need of removal by water changes (which can be removed biologically?(macroalgae?)).

Thanks!

[disc1]

The thing is you don't have to KNOW these things. If you don't want to do water changes because you feel them unnecessary then by all means don't do them.

You are also using the word toxin wrongly. A toxin is something that can elicit an immune response. It is not the noun form of the word toxic.

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by disc1

The thing is you don't have to KNOW these things. If you don't want to do water changes because you feel them unnecessary then by all means don't do them.

You are also using the word toxin wrongly. A toxin is something that can elicit an immune response. It is not the noun form of the word toxic.

Why wouldnt we want to know?

And you also didnt answer any of the questions...

Making your comment null... No offense.

Just trying understand the reasoning why people do things. Of course we sll have the anility to do whatever we want. However if we are playing with science, facts usually trump all reasoning/logic.

[dkeller_nc]

To expand a little on David's thought -

Nitrate and Phosphate should be thought of as "nutrients"; it's unclear if very high amounts in the tank's water would be directly detrimental to invertebrate and/or fish life, though high amounts can certainly cause problems with algal growth.

With respect to actual biological toxins, the manufacture and release of these substances into the water by corals is well-established science. These organisms make these compounds in order to conduct biological warfare against their neighbors on the reef. The complexity of these compounds is very high, and different ones may have very different physical chemistry properties, so it's not possible to make a generalization about their removal by chemical and/or biological means. Some, for example, may be very effectively removed by granular activated carbon, while others may not absorb to GAC at all.

That's partly why reefers rely on water changes, because a water change will dilute all soluble compounds, regardless of their chemical properties. The saying is "The solution to pollution is dilution".

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by dkeller_nc

To expand a little on David's thought -

Nitrate and Phosphate should be thought of as "nutrients"; it's unclear if very high amounts in the tank's water would be directly detrimental to invertebrate and/or fish life, though high amounts can certainly cause problems with algal growth.

With respect to actual biological toxins, the manufacture and release of these substances into the water by corals is well-established science. These organisms make these compounds in order to conduct biological warfare against their neighbors on the reef. The complexity of these compounds is very high, and different ones may have very different physical chemistry properties, so it's not possible to make a generalization about their removal by chemical and/or biological means. Some, for example, may be very effectively removed by granular activated carbon, while others may not absorb to GAC at all.

That's partly why reefers rely on water changes, because a water change will dilute all soluble compounds, regardless of their chemical properties. The saying is "The solution to pollution is dilution".

That does shed some light! Thanks!

How can find out what these chemicals are? And where are these chemicsl datasheets.

Personally i can go find out on my own but im trying to integrate mass knowledge into this research to try and inform the hobby better...

And i also feel there is some ritualistic assumption attached still...

Im not trying to create a right or wrong thread as i havnt stated my beliefs. Im just asking questions.

[disc1]

To me it is more like washing your hands when you get done in the bathroom. Do you need a test to show you whether or not you've actually got bacteria on your hands? Do you need a test to show exactly which bacteria you have? I mean it could be a total wasted effort if it turned out that you didn't get anything on there.

Or do you just go with the assumption and wash your hands and move on with it? That's what I do. They might be there or they might not, but the chance that they are is enough to get me to wash my hands. What do I really have to lose.

[disc1]

What I mean by that is that it isn't really known or even knowable all the different things that might or might not be in your water. There are myriad different things that could be going on in any one tank and each tank is different. So it is precisely that unknown quality that pushes me to do water changes. I might not have anything wrong with my water, or I might have some toxic substance building up. Either way, the water change can only help and shouldn't do any harm. I don't need some scientific proof to get me to do water changes. It just makes sense to me that I would want to refresh the environment in a closed system. Quite the contrary, I would need good proof that nothing was there to stop me doing them. Because while the water change itself can't be harmful, the buildup of a toxic substance may.

[dkeller_nc]

There are tons and tons of scholarly articles on the subject. You might want to start with Google Scholar and the search term "corallimorphs chemical warfare".

If you mean Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) by "chemicsl datasheets", I suspect you'll be out of luck. MSDS exist for purified chemicals and formulated mixtures in use by commerce and industry. So far as I'm aware, coral toxins aren't part of that group.

If you mean that reefers change water out of a desire to follow a well-established good practice by "ritualistic assumption attached still", then you're right. Water changes have both an unassailable basis in logic as well as years and years of observations that support that it's a good thing to do.

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by disc1

What I mean by that is that it isn't really known or even knowable all the different things that might or might not be in your water. There are myriad different things that could be going on in any one tank and each tank is different. So it is precisely that unknown quality that pushes me to do water changes. I might not have anything wrong with my water, or I might have some toxic substance building up. Either way, the water change can only help and shouldn't do any harm. I don't need some scientific proof to get me to do water changes. It just makes sense to me that I would want to refresh the environment in a closed system. Quite the contrary, I would need good proof that nothing was there to stop me doing them. Because while the water change itself can't be harmful, the buildup of a toxic substance may.

I totally agree

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by dkeller_nc

There are tons and tons of scholarly articles on the subject. You might want to start with Google Scholar and the search term "corallimorphs chemical warfare".

If you mean Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) by "chemicsl datasheets", I suspect you'll be out of luck. MSDS exist for purified chemicals and formulated mixtures in use by commerce and industry. So far as I'm aware, coral toxins aren't part of that group.

If you mean that reefers change water out of a desire to follow a well-established good practice by "ritualistic assumption attached still", then you're right. Water changes have both an unassailable basis in logic as well as years and years of observations that support that it's a good thing to do.

I appreciate your honesty and calm response! I also agree 100%.

I just like digging deep on "controversial" ideas

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

corallimorphs chemical warfare

googling now =D

YUMM KNOWLEDGE!!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I discuss some of the organic compounds in aquarium water, including organic toxins, here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

FWIW, I discuss some of the organic compounds in aquarium water, including organic toxins, here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm

Thanks will read now!

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

FWIW, I discuss some of the organic compounds in aquarium water, including organic toxins, here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm

" Nevertheless, suspended POC is frequently less plentiful than DOC, often by an order of magnitude (unless, of course, a whale passes through the sampling zone!"

::giggle::

and theoretically, if we could only get more reef enthusiasts to ask the same questions I am, we could be learning more through personal research, and less stagnation of the mind by carrying buckets of water in and out the house LOL

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

This i s aresponse i got from Bulk Reef supply on youtube from their TRITON method video, that has triggered my knowledge funny bone:

"Alleopathic toxins unfortunately can't be measured via any test kit available to the public. There may be some sort of laboratory test to test for accurate concentrations, but unfortunately I am not aware of it. Your best bet to keep these alleopathic toxins at a low concentration in the tank is to run carbon to remove them, as well as sticking to a water change schedule. Smaller, more frequent changes won't swing your parameters too greatly. "

im still researching and I Just found this:

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/algae-allelopathy

in case anyone else is interested in my journey for truth LOL

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, there are lots of good reasons to do water changes, and removing accumulated organics is just one of them.

Some of these can be accomplished in other ways, but may then require lots of testing and additives and binders.

As to the poll, I do water changes about ever 3 hours, day and night.

[OnceTrueFalseBr]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

FWIW, there are lots of good reasons to do water changes, and removing accumulated organics is just one of them.

Some of these can be accomplished in other ways, but may then require lots of testing and additives and binders.

As to the poll, I do water changes about ever 3 hours, day and night.

I hope it is all automated!!!

HAHA =P

At that point you may as well move to Australia and buy scuba gear and so swimming every day to look at corals and fish =P

[MBMAX]

[QUOTE=OnceTrueFalseBr;233

It just seems people throw the word "TOXIN" around (sort of like Christians claiming everything as a SIN [/QUOTE]

I am sorry you got that impression of Christians .Most of us will tell you about Gods love and encourage others to read the bible .
You should read it sometime it will be a blessing.

[dkeller_nc]

Careful, folks. Discussion of religion or politics on these forums is verboten.

[maze531]

Don't you also do water changes to add trace elements back into the system?

[bertoni]

Okay, I've removed some posts here. Please keep the discussion on track. This is a reef chemistry forum.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by maze531

Don't you also do water changes to add trace elements back into the system?

I do, and to export those that have accumulated.

[Stackemdeep]

Having read so many threads on inexplicable coral crashes with otherwise in-objectionable parameters and test results I can only question the husbandry involved. Often such threads end in a summary of "immeasurable stray voltage". The evidence I can measure is that of my creatures and I can visually see some improvement in the days following one of my 10% changes. Adding back in, or taking out is not that important in this regard.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by Stackemdeep

Adding back in, or taking out is not that important in this regard.

Not sure what you mean. It may be why you see an improvement.

[Nor_Cal_Guy]

Originally Posted by Stackemdeep

.... The evidence I can measure is that of my creatures and I can visually see some improvement in the days following one of my 10% changes. Adding back in, or taking out is not that important in this regard.

I agree, it seems in my naïve observation, that after a water change, I see an improvement in the extension of corals polyps.